back with us again is joyce vance. possible crimes could the doj be investigating -- >> this is a really interesting development. it's not yet clear whether the doj's investigating some sort of fraud, this would be a relatively guarded variety of fraud. right, telling people that you are going to use their money to do something when in fact you are personally benefiting from it or entities that you are associated with are benefiting from it. but it's not clear if doj is pursuing those sorts of criminal fraud charges here. whether this lie investigation would help twofer they're their case involving the insurrection. it might, for instance, of what the ultimate goals or motivations of the former president, could there be some communications that made clear what the purpose was. this is a very interesting development. >> sure is, steve bannon, the person vowing to fight on, and they will have to kill him for us to shut him up. what kind of implications are here with these charges, what kind of prison time could he be loo

joyce vance, thanks for your expertise.te you. >> thanks, alex. >>> still to come this hour, we will speak to the woman who beat sarah palin, mary peltola and the first democrat to represent alaska in the house in half a century. >>> and then, could democrats actually stand a chance of holding on to the senate and the house in november? are they even allowed to express that outloud? senator amy klobuchar will join me next to talk about the midterms, trump's legal woes and recent trip to ukraine. stick around. it's time for the biggest sale of the year, on the sleep number 360® smart bed. snoring? it can gently raise your partner's head to help. our smart sleepers get 28 minutes more restful sleep per night. don't miss our labor day weekend special. save 50% on the sleep number 360® limited edition smart bed. ends labor day. this? this is supersonic wifi from xfinity. it's fast. so gaming with your niece has never felt more intense. incoming! hey, what does this button do? no, don't! welcome to the fastest internet on the la

and it's available now on ancestry. >>> back with me, and sticking with me has been joyce vance and asha former special fbi agent. joyce, i want to start with you. listen, we've heard what chump, i called him chump, might have been a freudian slip. sorry about that. we have heard what he's saying publicly, his legal team going out and making all of these comments, how hard is he making it for his legal team with public admissions of guilt and attacks on law enforcement. >> trump is a nightmare of a client. i don't think you have to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. when you have criminal exposure, the most intelligent thing that you can do is to remain silent while all of the facts sort out. but here trump was out early and often, he had his surrogates on television. they went through this shifting array of defenses, which it turns out are contradictory. first of all, it was that the fbi planted materials, then he declassified them with his magic wand. anything that went to the residence was declassified and at some point you have to believe he's damaged his credibility so signif

joyce vance, former u.s.attorney, thanks so much for your time and expertise this evening, we've always appreciate you. >> thanks alex. >> still to come this hour, we will talk to the woman who beat sarah palin last night. mary peltola, who is set to become the first democrats represent alaska in the house and a half a century. and then, could democrats actually stand a chance of holding on to the senate and the house in november. are they allowed to even express hideouts allowed? amy klobuchar will join me next to talk about the midterms, trump's latest legal woes, and her latest trip to ukraine. stick around. stick around - [narrator] the future. the way you see it is said to depend on where you sit. at x-chair, we think it also gets down to how you sit, which is why our technology is lightyears ahead. x-chair has done it again with our groundbreaking elemax technology, providing hours of infinite comfort no matter where in the world you're sitting by synthesizing the universe's elements, bringing hot, cold

glenn kirschner, joyce vance, david cay johnston, we appreciate your time. coming up, new reporting shows that ginni thomas, wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas was the lobbying for overturning the election results, not just in arizona, but also, in wisconsin. the lieutenant governor of wisconsin mandela barnes joins me next. ♪ ♪ ♪ when moderate to severe ulcerative colitis persists... put it in check with rinvoq, a once-daily pill. when uc got unpredictable,... i got rapid symptom relief with rinvoq. check. when uc held me back... i got lasting, steroid-free remission with rinvoq. check. and when uc got the upper hand... rinvoq helped visibly repair the colon lining. check. rapid symptom relief. lasting, steroid-free remission. and a chance to visibly repair the colon lining. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin cancer; death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and o

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the absolute best, msnbc legal analyst joyce vance.> coming up on "morning joe," live coverage from the united kingdom as we remember queen elizabeth ii. >>> plus, we'll hear from the u.s. ambassador to the uk, jane hartley, as well as her counterpart karen pierce. >>> also ahead, with less than two months until the midterms, the head of the democratic campaign arm in the senate, gary peters will join the conversation. "morning joe" is a few moments away. "way too early" will be right back. (cool guy) $30...that's awesome. (mom) it's their best unlimited price ever. (woman) for $30 a line, i'm switching now. (vo) the network you want. the price you love. only from verizon. a pool floatie is like whooping cough, it's not just for kids. whooping cough is highly contagious for people of any age. and it can cause violent uncontrollable coughing fits. ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination because it's not just for kids. announcer: type 2 diabetes? ask your doctor or pharmacist about whooping cough vaccination discov

joyce vance, former u.s.orney, thanks so much for your time and expertise this evening, we always appreciate you. >> thanks alex. >> still to come this hour, we will talk to the woman who beat sarah palin last night. mary peltola, who is set to become the first democrats represent alaska in the house and a half a century. and then, could democrats actually stand a chance of holding on to the senate and the house in november. are they allowed to even express that out loud? amy klobuchar will join me next to talk about the midterms, trump's latest legal woes, and her latest trip to ukraine. stick around. k around i would say that to me an important aspect is too... meta portal with smart sound. helps reduce your background noise. bring that sense of calm, really... so you come through, loud and clear. meta portal. the smart video calling device that makes work from home work for you. nurtec odt is the only medication that can treat my migraine right when it strikes and prevent my next attack. don't take if alle

attorney joyce vance who spent 25 years as federal prosecutor, and she is also a law professor at the university of alabama. joyce, you know i'm going to you first. i want to share how politico describes what went down today with a right, tension between theory and trump's leader legal team was an ominous sign for the former president, reminding our audience, trump picked dearie. given that, on day one, how bad was it for him? >> well, it was bad for trump, stephanie, but it was nothing that anyone who had where the law and looked at the facts and the situation wouldn't have anticipated. and i think what is so shocking about this is that we have almost lost our expectation that the former president will be treated like any other litigant in the courtroom. that is exactly what judge dearie did today. but the talk about, you can't have your cake and needed to, was a function of what the burden of proof is in a civil lawsuit that the former president filed -- actually has put evidence in front of the court that suggests that he is entitled to relief, and one way he could do that would be

and joyce vance is the u.s.ney for the northern district of alabama, she teaches at the university of law alabama. brendan, let me start with. you let start with this ludicrous idea that there was this, again, i think the classification that it's a little like the mystery of the communion host. there are some moments, there is a miraculous moment, when it gets trans especially aided from classify to declassified when the president touches, it or he will sit so, telepathically. so first i think it's worthwhile saying why that's ludicrous, which i think it is. what do you think? >> well, you know, even if the theory itself is ludicrous or sort of -- it is almost, i would say, a knowable in terms of the criminal charges itself, it ultimately should have, at best, and negligible impact if any impact whatsoever. >> say more. >> so, ultimately, declassification, whether the documents were classified or unclassified, it doesn't actually affect the three charges at guess present. here two of the charges don't have to de

attorney joyce vance, also an msnbc legal analyst. joyce, good to see you. so, what do you make of that second ruling on the justice department's ability to review these documents, those 100 classified documents specifically, that they do have to continue to hold and pause before the special master looks at them? >> it's i'm going to say an interesting ruling, willie, in the sense that it's internally contradictory, because the judge tells doj that she rejects their assessment about whether documents are classified or not and whether there are privilege issues, but on the other hand there's this really interesting footnote late in the ruling where she says that if doj ultimately finds that the criminal investigation and the intelligence review come together in a way where they're inextricably intertwined, that doj can just make that judgment and go ahead. this seems like a judge -- and it sort of pains me to criticize a federal judge because cases are often very close. the supreme court decides a lot of cases 5-4. but increasingly it's clear that this is an

attorney joyce vance. she spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor. she is now a law professor at the university of alabama. joyce, to you first. what exactly is the justice department looking for in terms of what they want judge cannon to do? >> well, what doj has asked judge cannon to do is to release the classified documents that were seized at mar-a-lago. both so that they can use them in criminal investigation in the intelligence communities work. but also to exempt them from review by the special master. so, this is a very limited focus. this is a request that the judge stay just a part of her order. and of course, doj, you know, that sort of the carrot. the stick is, and if you don't do this, we will go ahead and make the same request and atlanta to the 11th circuit. but also, we can anticipate a much broader appeal from doj when they get to the 11th circuit. in their opening pleading to judge can, and they told her that although they were limiting their request for a stay for the classified documents, they had a much broader disagreement with h

also joining, us joyce vance, a former u.s. attorney, msnbc legal analyst, a professor at the university of alabama law school, and, a friend of the program. great to have both of you with us. let me start with you, and get your reaction to this civil suit. this is not a new legal battle for donald trump, a new legal front perhaps, but not a new battle. during a six hour deposition in new york last month, trump pleaded the fifth at least 440 times. last week, as lawyers even attempted to settle the suit. what kind of impact will those events have as they move forward? then >> you are absolutely right. it is not a new battle. it is happening openly, and above period of time, and the former president has had every opportunity against tish james to not file a lawsuit, or to let them settle it, before it was filed, or at the same time i was filed. then they suggest, hughes very could food be evidence. the documents filed in court is extremely detailed. it lays out more than 200 instances of inflation of assets. of course, this is s

joining me now is joyce vance, a former attorney and analyst, and mark -- and in and mess nbc nationality and intelligence analysts. joyce, let's begin with the doj's appeal of judge cannons -- what are their arguments, what are the chances that this 11th circuit court of appeals, where by the way six of the 11 judges are trying appointees, we'll ruling the judge's favor? >> right now we're only looking at this very limited appeal of the district judges state order. doj's larger appeal on her ruling's yet to come. we haven't seen the first pleading in that yet. we may known for sometime. but right now they're saying, the district court, please let us use these classified documents. the argument is, the former president has no conceivable right to these documents. they are classified material. that classification designation is up to the government, not to trump, at least not at this point. so there is no reason to include these documents in the special master's review. the government suggests that there could likely be irreparable damage to national security if it's not permitted to pr

joining me is joyce vance, former federal prosecutor as well and dave aronberg, also honoring me by joining me on set tonight. joyce, let's start with you. your thoughts on ginni thomas' appearance before the 1/6 committee with the caveat, of course, joyce, we don't have a transcript of her testimony at this time. >> so it's interesting to see what people are beginning to make of ginni thomas' testimony, but, katie, as you know and i think as you hint, there is a lot of difference between the sort of testimony that someone gives in front of congress where they're being treated deferentialally and obtained in front of a grand jury and the differences that in the latter more pointed questions are asked and there's less wiggle room and so i think at best this testimony or what we've heard reported from it is equivocal and we don't know precisely what thomas might have said had she been under more scrutiny but here's the reality, whether she ever had a conversation with her husband about her activities or not, that shouldn't be the standard for when a judge makes a decision that he should recus

attorney joyce vance, she's an msnbc legal analyst. of the court proceedings yesterday, the potential for a more detailed list to be -- i sometimes feel like the trump team should stop asking for things because they'll get it. and, you know, it won't be good. but then again, maybe not. what is the potential here that these documents are just like overdue library books? >> right. so, i think we can dismiss that notion. there is nothing here that is like an overdue library book. this is an extraordinarily serious situation. and this photo that doj attached to its response in the case that trump ill-advisedly filed is litly worth a thousand words. because what you have in that picture is photographs of highly classified documents. this is the sort of photograph that the fbi takes to document its evidence and yet it copt just take a photo and release it. it had to put cover sheets from front of all of those documents to block out classified portions of information that were simply lying in drawers and cardboard boxes at mar-a-lago. so no on

officer with the cia and nbc news national security and intelligence analyst mark polymeropoulos and joyce vanceso an msnbc legal analyst. good to you have both with us. joyce, the appeal or the appeal to part of the decision at least, what is the process on that? what is the timeline and do you think that the doj was right to do that? >> so there are two simultaneous processes going on here. on the one hand we've got doj asking the district judge to stay part of her order. and that will proceed pretty quickly. she's ordered trump to respond by monday. the 11th circuit proceeding will take a little bit longer. that appeal will be docketed, the court will order a briefing schedule, it can either be expedited, and the court could make it move pretty quickly, but the traditional briefing schedule is something that runs on for a couple of months before the case is ripe for a decision. so the time line there is pretty much an unknown at this point, mika. >> and mark, the doj in this new filing, and the appeal said effectively, we need to under these documents do not belong to donald trump so there is

attorney, joyce vance, and daift priest, a cia officer who's briefed the president. welcome to you both. joyce, i deliberately emphasize that as much as there is news to track about the procedural motion and the special master standoff, the bigger story might be what lurks behind it and ty cobb just alluded to it. what do you think of his analysis of how broad this probe may be? >> i'm not certain that i agree with mr. cobb's assessment of the search warrant. he views it as being very broad and authorizing the government to take lots of documents. i think that this is a pretty standard sort of a search warrant when, after all, one of your criminal bases for the search warrant is the espionage act. this is to seize any evidence or fruits of crime. that's the standard language that's used. when you're talking about documents and trying to prove who was in possession of them, it's pretty routine to have the ability to take other items that are stored with the documents or that are mingled because you can use that to prove identity. but to cobb's larger point that trump h

charlie savage, joyce vance, thank you both very much.ne, the water crisis in mississippi is growing more dire by the minute. the president of the hbcu jackson state university will join me live to discuss, plus the consequential governor's race down in florida. i will talk to democratic nominee for governor, that person looking to unseat the tyrant of tyler has the, i am talking about charlie crist. we are chatting later in the show. but first, my colleague jessica layton with today's other top news stories, hey jessica. >> hi simone, thank you. stories we are watching this hour, a terrifying situation in mississippi after a man stole a plane and threatened to deliberately crash it into a walmart. the local sheriff's office they're saying the man is in custody, he has been identified as an aviation employee, and is now facing criminal charges. nasa, scrubbing the second attempt to launch the artemis moon rocket, now delayed another time because of a hydrogen leak. the launch was scheduled for today at 2:17 pm, no word yet on when the nex

joyce vance, thank you. susan and peter, i am not letting you go.hen we come back, we are going to dig into their new, get ready, 650-page book, the divider. the book has some of the most frightening stories about what actually happened inside the trump white house yet. and later, you're going to meet eric adama. someone sent photos he thought were private to his boss and to his mother. what happened? he lost his tv job and now he is having to fight to find out who did this to him. what why would happen to him as a warning to all of us. what is privacy? what are you doing on social media? and when your private life quickly becomes your public life. the 11th hour just getting underway on a tuesday night. tuesday night. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪ "shake your thang" by salt n pepa (vo) you can be well-dressed. you can be well-mannered. (man) oh, no, no, after you. wahoooo! (vo) you can be well-groomed. or even well-spoken. (man) ooooooo. (vo) but there's just something about being well-adventured. (vo) adventure has a new look. discover more in t

attorney, joyce vance. she's an msnbc legal analyst. good to have you both. perri, just give us the latest in terms of process now. we understand what the judge has said and is indicating he's interested in, but does he fullout ask for these things or what happens next? >> so so far he hasn't specifically asked the trump team to answer any of these questions that i know have made the headlines, but he did say that by friday, they have to kind of select a vendor, which would be the third party that uploads all of these documents, so that they can -- both parties can view them and the special master can settle any disagreements about privilege. that's the first step, so that suggests it's moving along. and by early next week, the justice department said that they could hand over all the nonclassified documents in their proper format to be reviewed. >> so, joyce, what do you make of what the special master has sort of put out there, not making a ruling or anything like that, but certainly, it appears the trump attorneys were a little taken aback by what he's int

i want to bring in jonathan allen, an msnbc legal analyst joyce vance. bring us up today, jonathan, first and foremost, walk us through what we're expected to see happen, take place monday, specifically. and really on these points of disagreement, all of the ones that -- talk through who, what, where, and who's going to pick up the tab? >> that's a great introduction, yasmin. this filing, this joint filing from the government and former president trump's lawyers shows all these -- which they've had for quite awhile, one of the big ones here is the desire for the government to get moving as fast as possible. they want an october 17th date for the special barrister to wrap up. the trump team is looking for three months. three times as long. the other issues that they have here, the government wants the special master to only look at at unclassified documents as they try to push forward with an investigation into the classified section. the trump lawyers are fighting them on that because they basically don't believe that any of the documents are classified,

joining us is the former united states attorney joyce vance.an msnbc legal analyst and the co-host of the sisters and law podcasts. good morning to both of. you thank you for being with us, representative plastic, i want to start with. you in all of that, a lot of stuff we just talked about, the thing that stands out to me is we have a very important election coming up on november 8th, in which democracy itself, whether it's through voting rights or election denial or through abortion rights, is on the ballot. yet, the january six committee says it's not ready to hand over its long homework to get department of justice just yet. can you explain to me why not, and what the significance of that is? >> i think the january six committee is still collecting evidence. we've saw that they went to the courts in california, looking for additional documents, additional emails. so what i think they would like to do is have all their information gathered before they do a preliminary report. as you've heard this week, each one of the members in different, v

our friends andrew weissmann and joyce vance are here to do that.. t break. don't go anywhere. you see, son, with a little elbow grease, you can do just about anything. thanks, dad. that's right, robert. and it's never too early to learn you could save with america's number one motorcycle insurer. that's right, jamie. but it's not just about savings. it's about the friends we make along the way. you said it, flo. and don't forget to floss before you brush. your gums will thank you. -that's right, dr. gary. -jamie? sorry, i had another thought so i got back in line. what was it? [ sighs ] i can't remember. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day, that's effective without topical steroids. many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin while some saw up to 100% clear skin. plus, they felt fast itch relief some as early as 2 days. that's rinvoq r

we're back with joyce vance and claire mccaskill.ire, this is holding him accountable, keeping him from running for office under the 14th amendment, i believe. why not apply that standard to trump or congressman perry or the guy that wore body armor or any of those other guys? >> i think it's a matter of evidence. that's why all the work that's going on at doj, looking into what trump actually did and when and who he talked to and what he said is so important. there was a lot of evidence here that this man not only was in the capitol but that he was leading people, that he was part of planning, getting people to do this. by the way, this is not the first judge that's found that it was a seditious insurrection. a judge in georgia found that around marjorie taylor greene but said there wasn't enough evidence to connect her to the actual planning and the actual participation. they had that with this individual. they had just boat loads of evidence. that's why this happened. the question remains, will more evidence develop that will pull

attorney joyce white vance, an msnbc contributor and law professor at the university of alabama.hank you both for joining us. charlie, i want to start with you. trump's niece says the insults that he is launching these days show that he feels backed into a corner. i want you to take a listen. >> it is quite something to see, the consistency with which this man unravels as the pressure builds. the worse things get for him, the worse his lashing out gets. >> charlie, how concerned is trump world about the mar-a-lago investigation? >> well, they need to be increasingly concerned about it. the key point about this is not just that trump took home those documents that you listed at the intro today's, but all of those documents were documents that they had concealed. they took home many, many more documents than that, and after eight months of asking they turned over 15 boxes of them to the national archives. then, when it turns out that that wasn't everything and they had concealed more, they received a subpoena in may and turned over another batch in june. and said, both orally and i

joining me now ken dilanian and joyce vance. joyce, to you. to go after the u.s.uthern district and to demand that greg craig, a prominent democrat, a lawyer, be prosecuted, jeff berman says, that he refused and then was basically forced out but hung on just long enough to make sure that his deputy, who could not be pressured, would replace him. and then, of course, he was prosecuted by a more willing u.s. attorney in the district of columbia and was then very quickly acquitted by a jury, but with great personal loss. he lost his position in his law firm and how does he get his reputation back? how unusual to have these allegations of meddling from the attorney general of the united states, both in favor of allies and against perceived opponents? >> andrea, the allegations are absolutely unprecedented. it's important to keep an open mind. it's good for the senate to embark on this investigation, because we do need to know the truth. we're only hearing one side here. so investigation is appropriate. but if berman's tales are true, they are very serious. no attorney

attorneys, joyce vance and paul charlton. joyce, mr.remarkable statement in their filing there where vaughan is in brooklyn. they acknowledge the possibility that the former president or his aides could be criminally charged. that's why they don't want to get into the argument over what documents are declassified or not. what do you make of that? >> it's a very disingenuous argument. because they're the ones who brought this whole proceeding, trying to shake loose these documents and remove them from the government's control so the government can use them to investigate its case. i suspect every criminal defendant would like to be able to allege they have a secret magic wand defense that they're not going to tell the court. it means the government can't continue to investigate them. i don't expect this argument to have much force. >> paul, let me ask you out of the gate, the special master judge dearie is trying to do what the trump appointee did not by making the trump team disclose these specific details. what do we take away from wha

joining me now, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney in alabama.eal katyal, former solicitor general of the united states. both are msnbc legal analyst, joining us now, neil, thank you for joining us. neil, how much will this latest appeal delay justices investigation? >> i think, actually, it could go pretty quickly. late last night, the court of appeals issued in order to donald trump's lawyer that they need to respond by tuesday. the government might then try to have a response on wednesday. i think this could be tight up this week. i think it's because with the justice department did here was really smart. what they didn't appeal the entire thing, at least not now. what they said is, there is 100 very serious documents of sensitive national security concern, and with respect to those, we need access them immediately. for the criminal investigation, because these documents of the subject of that, they're stolen and highly sensitive documents, or the intelligence review, because these concerns sources and methods, including active spies out there

reporter for the washington post, msnbc contributor joyce vance, who is a law professor at the universityof the alabama. and tracy walder fbi agent, author of the book the unexpected spy. let's start with steve bannon. what is he facing tomorrow? you get all these headlines that sound really bad for bannon. yet when it comes time, he is cartwheeling into courtrooms making a promo for his podcast. >> yes, stephanie, this certainly doesn't hurt his podcast promotion. he took an opportunity to direct readers to his podcast, putting out a statement responding to our recording last night. but he is expected to surrender to state prosecutors on thursday and will face a new criminal indictment, we have been told, that will mirror the case that he was charged with two years ago. this is related to the we build the wall fund. but again, we could not confirm the details of what exactly he is going to be charged with. but in that previous indictment that i just mentioned, prosecutors had alleged that van and several others defrauded contributors to a private 25 million dollar fund raising efforts an

attorney joyce vance, legal analyst, and national political reporter for "the washington post," michael szczur. thanks for being with us on this holiday. joyce, let's start with you. we have a more detailed inventory of what the fbi seized from mar-a-lago last month. you looked through it. what stands out most to you? >> so what stands out, jonathan, is when doj evaluates whether to prosecute cases that involve mishandling of classified materials, they're always looking for a plus factor. it is typically more than straight up mishandling. the inventory provides further evidence of everything the president did. there are massive quantities of documents. this isn't just two or three items. most troubling here, in addition to the notion there was obstruction, that there was a willful effort to prevent the government in reclaiming classified materials, we now see that, in addition to mishandling, we have items missing from folders, items intermangled with classified material, which amps up the risk that it could somehow spoil out into the public or other hands. so we see increasing idisha,

joyce vance from u.s. attorney and professor at the alabama school of law, both are msnbc contributors. it is good to see you both. joyce i want to start with you, i don't get your reaction to what the congressman said. there >> well i think exemplifies public service. we don't see enough of this on the republican side of the aisle. i hate to doubt that sharp political line but i think it's very clear. we need people who are willing to serve democracy, who are willing to serve the country and not the party. i think that's what his comments are hinting at. we see that some measure of republicans. hopefully as we move into the midterms i think sometimes as voters we undervalue the forest and the role that we can exert here over elected officials. but if voters demand an evidence support for people who will prioritize the country, rather than the gains or losses of any one party that may help moving past the midterm elections where congressman small says one of the options here is just constant ongoing politic

joyce vance a former u.s. attorney and professor at the university alabama school of law, also a legal analyst. and tim miller writer at large for the bulwark and msnbc political analyst. let's start with the latest on this mar-a-lago search. what can you tell us about this list released today? did we learn anything new here? >> you know, this is a list that was revealed here at the urging of trump's team yesterday in that hear. we do not have a ruling at this time on the special master it could come today over the weekend or next week here. but when you're looking at this more detailed list it doesn't tell you exactly what the contents of each of these documents were, but it is telling just the extent to how many documents donald trump was in possession of more than two months after the custodian of his records signed a sworn affidavit on his behalf contending that trump had complied with his subpoena request from the department of justice to turn over all such relevant documents. when you look at which docum

joining me now is a former special agent with the fbi's counterterrorism division and joyce vance, formerlaw professor at the university of alabama. joyce, i am going to go to you first. that nugget stood out to me and all of my producers. did that little snippet about this unspecified chief judge stand out to you? >> it's an interesting comment, but frankly, joy, we don't know what it means. there are a lot of chief judges. we don't know what the basis for the statement was. i'm a little bit hesitant to get too far out on this one, simply because there's such a lack of clarity. but that certainly underlines the need for doj to be able to proceed with the criminal investigation in this case, particularly since some of the charges that doj has suggested that they're pursuing could involve obstruction of justice. it's a bright line distinction between a federal judge in miami and the southern district of florida who tried to shut down this criminal investigation and the need for it to proceed speedily. >> let me go to you on this one because this idea of shutting down the investigation woul

joyce vance is a former attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. sam stein is our white house editor and nbc news contributor. ken, let's start with -- i want to put on the screen some of the topics of the subpoenas, as laid out by "the washington post." along with the kmoun indications about alternate electors, they want any communication with anyone in the doj, anything related to election certification, fraud or fraud claims, any information they got challenging fraud claims, anything sent to officials regarding fraud or the election, anything related to the save america pac or sent to the january 6th committee and they are asking for all of this from dozens of people. what is going on? >> just to be clear, these are the same subpoenas that nbc news told you about a few days ago first reported by "the washington post." as many as 30 subpoenas out to various people in trump world. what the post has done here is gotten some more details about what's in the subpoenas and the vast array of documents and commuications records that they are seeking. w

bring in msnbc contributor as a new yorker online executive editor david road and nbc legal analyst joyce vancestart with the special master from the president, how can we expect that to play out this week? >> it makes less sense to use a special master, the longer this drags on. the judge has not imposed any sort of injunction that would keep doj from completing their review. they said last week that they had, there is no injunction which prevents them from using the evidence. so, it becomes less and less pressing, less legally warranted, but, the judge went on record early in this case, saying she was inclined to do it. so, perhaps we will see her use a special master to reevaluate the very limited number of documents doj has set aside as potentially covered by attorney- client privilege. that might be in some ways splitting the baby, where she could try to get both sides to win. >> how would that make a difference, or have an impact on this? what the former president is saying is that they were taking against all kinds of legality. in other words, what would make a difference there? >> there

i'm joined now by former federal prosecutor, joyce vance and david priess, and is the author of "the president's book of secrets." joyce, i begin with you and i emphasize that there can be very controversial or problematically rendered rulings. they are law. everyone, including the justice department and the prosecutors, the fbi, they have to follow it. and so i'm curious what you think happens practically in this case right now, as well as the criticism that while it seems like this judge is really going out of their way. >> so it's not infrequent that litigants on one side of a case are disappointed in a federal judge's ruling. i think the disappointment here, frankly, is much more broadly-based and goes to concerns about whether the ruling has any legal merit whatsoever. but that said, ari, i think you make an important point. that in a rule of law country, we're obligated to follow these rulings from federal judges, and if a party does not like them, then they have the option of going back to the judge to ask for a different ruling, which doj did here with its motion for a stay, a

also with us is joyce vance, a former u.s. attorney and professor at the university of of alabama law school. she's an msnbc legal analyst. and sue craig from the "new york times." so ken, starting with the doj investigation, tell us what went into the appeals court decision. >> good morning, jose. this decision was a total repudiation requiing that these classified documents go before a special master. the judges, two of whom were appointed by donald trump, completely agree with the the justice department in will almost every respect saying that donald trump has no interest in these classified documents, makes no plausible argument they could be personal records, that even if he declassified them, which judges say that's no evidence of that happening, it wouldn't matter. they say the judge abused her discretion in granting this relief. they granted a temporary stay. they granted the request that it be allowed to begin using these classified documents in the criminal investigation that can keep them stored where they are in a

ken dilanian, vaughn hilliard, joyce vance, thank you. >>> with us is california congressman ro khana. congressman, good morning. thanks for joining us. >> good morning. >> i want to bring you some news we have, because the oversight committee tweeted out it's reached an agreement with former president trump and accounting for usa to turn over his financial records to the committee. what more can you tell us? >> this is long overdue. we've been working on this for a number of years. those documents are important because, as you remember, michael cohen had testified before our committee that there could have been financial fraud that the president had certain conflicts of interest. we've never been able to significantly investigate that because the president's own accountants refused to hand over those documents. now the president is saying that the accounting firm can get us those documents and we can continue our investigation. >> congressman, i want to talk to you about this mar-a-lago search as we look to that hearing this afternoon on the special master. we know the justice depart

. >> i want to bring in joyce vance, law professor at the university of alabama and an msnbc legal analyst. i'm sure you heard of people.com this. get a letter loan term, but here's what's alleged. very brazen. letitia james says donald trump grossly inflated the values of his properties, but here's just one example. >> trump's try ple, the one on trump tower. trump represented that his apartment spanned more than 30,000 square feet, which was the basis for valuing the apartment. in reality, the apartment had an area of less than 11,000 square feet, something that trump was well aware of. base the on that inflated square footage, the value of the apartment in 2015 and 2016 was $327 million. to this date, no apartment in new york city has ever sold for close to all the. tripling the size of the apartment for purposes of the valuation was intentional and deliberate fraud. not an honest mistake. >> what strikes me about those kinds of examples, these are easily checked. somebody can come to my house, kristen's house and tell you pretty quickly what's the square footage. it doesn't take a lot

attorney joyce vance, now our legal analyst.ine, so what options do they have depending on what happens today? >> that's right, chris, the judge can do what she pleases. but the justice department has told the judge that if she doesn't rule by the end of today, they will make the same request to the appeals court in atlanta. so there is a number of scenarios that could happen here. she does grant the doj what they want, they still intend to appeal her whole order. they filed a notice to do that. but this would give them the latitude to start using those classified documents in their investigation and resume the damages assessment which they say is on hold right now and which is harming national security. she could rule against them and decline to grant the stay in which case they will take it right up to the appeals court. i guess it is also possible she could modify her ruling in the face of powerful evidence that there is really no way that these classified documents could be subject to executive privilege or attorney/client p

charlie savage, and joyce vance, thank you both so much. >> ahead, senator lindsey graham's most federalban is backfiring on his own party. we've got the numbers to back that up. more on that when the political panel joins me next. l joins me next. the peanut butter box is here. ralph, that's the chewy pharmacy box with our flea and tick meds. it's not peanut butter. ♪ the peanut butter box is here ♪ i'm out. pet prescriptions delivered to your door. chewy. what's for dinner? panera! pet prescriptions delivered to your door. freshly prepared with clean ingredients. it's not just a night off from cooking. it's a delicious night on... for everyone at the table. panera. $0 delivery fee for a limited time. businesses have to find new ways to compete in order to thrive in an ever-changing market. the right relationship with a bank who understands your industry, as well as the local markets where you do business, can help lay a solid foundation for the future. pnc provides the resources of one of the nation's largest banks and local leaders with a focus on customized insights to help your busi

. >> and joyce vance legal analyst and attorney for the university of alabama school of law and clint -- nbc national security analyst and distinguished research fellow at the fore and institute. >> thank you all for being here. clint, you may be away as well because i think that's a different backdrop. let's go to this, peter. before i get your reaction to donald trump speech last night, let's take a look at what form white house communications director stephanie grisham said about his remarks. >> i would imagine that we will see a lot more realities where he will feel he has got his voice and he will continue to be divisive and blame everybody and not take responsibility. i think -- he doesn't think anybody is following the legal aspects of it and then all he has to say is his version of the truth and the mega extreme right wing of the party will believe him. >> sadly, they will. >> peter, is how you interpret the former presidents messaging? to see his defiant stance of some kind of political strategy or just his and needs reaction to something? >> i think it can be both, of course

to stress what katie said which is i agree, and i know a lot of my colleagues who do what i do, joyce vance has said this, which i do think that this is early stages. we don't have a sense of how big the team is. this will need to have a large sophisticated team at the fbi and at the justice department. and it is really important that merrick garland has the will do this. but that there also is just the leg work and skill that lk needed to move this along and i do think that the january 6 type investigationneeded to move this along and i do think that the january 6 type investigation, those are all the signs that i think that we can see publicly, it doesn't feel in the middle or towards the end. >> so interesting. eric holder made the similar point before the public hears began that perhaps one of the greatest services of the public phase would be to sort of socialize the idea and familiarize the public with the broader body of evidence that may come under scrutiny by doj. and this will always be the week that the courts called out donald trump. they called his bluff on his claims that he m

look at it through that lens, it's not hard to see why msnbc's own legal analysts, our favorite joyce vanceit as quote, a class act offering of an off ramp to a judge who is badly in need of one. there are so many questions. i have got the perfect panel to start us off and answer them all. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our lead off team. katie benner, pulitzer prize-winning reporter for the new york times covering the justice department. frank figliuzzi, former fbi assistant director for counter intelligence, and barbara mcquade, veteran federal prosecutor and former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan. she's now a professor at the university of michigan school of law. katie, you are our reporter on hand. walk us through the latest reporting from the times. over a dozen trump associates, getting subpoenaed this week. >> that's absolutely right. what we are seeing is the justice department's investigation into the u.s. attorney's office around washington, it's looking broadly at the january 6th attack. that investigation is just becoming more sprawling by the m

also, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney now law professor at the university of alabama and former republican congressman, david jolly. they're all msnbc contributors and friends of this hour. katie, i want to start with you. the hearing is now officially postponed. but what can you tell us about what the committee had planned for tomorrow because it's likely to be rescheduled pretty soon. they're only delaying it because of the storm. >> the first question, there were a lot of questions inside of the committee about what could happen and what they could present to the american public. there are no witnesses, for example. they weren't really sure what they should say. this has been in some ways a hearing that has been a debate about whether or not there should be a recap of what happened. what the most compelling evidence is they can show about people like roger stone and whether they should take the eye off of donald trump. should they be looking at massive security failures that happened ahead of january 6th? whic

joining our conversation, joyce vance, former u.s. attorney.t. andrew weissmann, you called up that sound, and we played it and it certainly delivers. i also hear the weight of everything resting on doj to prove what he says is true. >> absolutely. you know, i think there are two things that the department needs for backbone and it needs sort of hypercompetence. we don't know about that, meaning putting cases like this together, you need to have really smart, experienced people and as attorney general garland has said, they can't make mistakes. you just can't afford to do that. that's one part. the other part that is equally important is backbone. is having somebody like the attorney general saying that if this is warranted, i am going to do it. and it will be my decision and i'm behind -- i will stand behind you. and to me, that's, again, it may be, this is, like, a rorschach test and you read into it, but i think it's hard not to in this situation. and what merrick garland is saying, this is fundamental to his view of what it means to be the