head mike pompeo about slain writer and saudi arabia critic khashoggi.shington post" columnist was brute le killed at the saudi consulate in 2018. questions his credentials as a journalist saying he didn't deserve to die but we need to be clear about who he was and too many in the media were not. he calls a global upset about the killing full outrage saying khashoggi was an activist with questionable past associations. in a statement the publisher of the "washington post" defended khashoggi saying his only thing was exposing corruption and oppression among those in powers. work that good journalists around the world do every day. as for the saudi crown prince pompeo says there is no evidence tying him to khashoggi's murder and widely reported the c.i.a. did conclude the man they call mbs ordered the killing. and what does khashoggi's widow think of what trump administration veteran pompeo had to say? in a tweet she posted he should be silent and shut up. the lies about my husband. dana, in an attempt to put the khashoggi killing into context he noted it

jamal khashoggi's murder, really in the history of the "post," stands out.ft-spoken man. his voice became very important because he was the single most important dissident writing about the saudi regime. >> jamal, let me start with you. you've compared your crown prince to putin, to iran's supreme leader. you've said he's creating, "an interesting form of dictatorship." how so? >> i still see him as a reformer but he is gathering all power within his hand. as we speak today, there are saudi intellectuals and journalists jailed. >> his murder was so cold blooded. and we, we still don't have the whole story. jamal went to the consulate in istanbul and then he disappeared. >> senior turkish officials have reported that he is in fact in the building and he is still here. his close friends and family are still trying to figure out what this situation is. they're waiting on an official statement. i spoke to his fiancée who was also here o told us that they came here to issue a number of documents so they could marry. >> they dispatched an assassination team that l

in response, khashoggi's widow told nbc news, jamal khashoggi is not a part of the muslim brotherhoodds, rightly, for the former cia director who knew the intel. and knew what the intel pointed to, and knows what he's saying right now is just a lie. he's trying to paint something as being black and white that's not black and white. it was far more nuanced and the fact that he decides, gene robinson, to go after a murdered "washington post" columnist who was a virginia resident, lived in america, and who got tortured, sawed up, chopped into a thousand little pieces, and buried. >> right. >> this is the guy that mike pompeo decides to criticize. i'm sorry, what's the word for it because sick keeps coming to mind? >> it's totally sick, and, you know, he writes, well, i'm not blaming the victim, but let me blame the victim. jamal khashoggi was a respected journalist, known and liked and respected for his integrity and his talent and his connections and everything by every correspondent covering that region that i know. i mean, he was -- he was certainly a journalist. he was certainly not

he is essentially upset at khashoggi because khashoggi wasn't willing to buckle under to the saudis like here, of course, the biden administration hardly covered itself in glory, the relationship with saudi arabia, there was the notorious fist bump, the kind of harsh rhetoric which then gives way to real politic, gas prices are high, and you're going to visit him, and it's the same thing we've seen 1 million times. >> the level of supplicants of mike pompeo, the american first years, kushner, trump, pompeo, to the saudis, was unlike anything i've ever seen in my career coming in foreign policy. >> they've paid handsomely for it, right? the saudi golf course, trump's golf course, kushner gets two billion dollars in his investment fund despite the fact he has no capacity to make anybody any money, and these are down payments because, if this crowd, kushner, pompeo, trump, get back in office, they will have prepaid them for the insurance that saudis will be kept away from any impunity in the future. >> there's something really gross about this. today, he is on twitter, calling him a part-ti

we were very clear the murder of jamal khashoggi was heinous. we sanctioned 13 saudis for what they did there. we also knew that the life of mr. khashoggi or nor of any individual is more important than saving lots of american lives that includes our soldiers, sailors airmen and marines hard decision to make. someone was murdered. no, no one is going to say that's okay. we didn't say that was okay. we were never naive about the reality of the world. it is, indeed, a nasty, brutal place. it was far -- this is a man who praised usama bin laden when he passed away. it's just -- we can spend a lot of time going into the details. most of them are public. but, suffice it to say, this wasn't somebody working for the wichita eagles covering soccer games. this was -- he was a multifaceted person. but none of that, none of that is intended to diminish the fact that he was murdered just simply to say that this is a complicated problem set in a complicated part of the world and america's function in that is that we weren't responsible for killing him. our r

he writes the media made khashoggi out to be a bob woodward martyred for bravely criticizing the saudi royal family. he was a potential candidate in 2024. he mocks the portrayal of khashoggi and writes, he didn't deserve to die, but we need to be clear about who he was. too many in the media were not. joining us now is david ignatius, foreign affairs columnist, a friend and close colleague of jamal's. we also have a statement from the publisher's ceo of "the washington post" saying it is shocking and disappointing to see mike pompeo's book misrepresent the life of columnist jamal khashoggi. it is shaflful he would spread falsehoods to dishonor a man's life and service. you knew jamal very well. a secretary state when the decision was made by the trump administration not to reveal the conclusion. the de facto leader of saudi arabia was responsible for ordering the murder and burrturing of jamal khashoggi. he was the former cia director. >> the publisher in the statement that you just. and sold mike pompeo stays in the book, i read it this morning to get ready for our conversation, the f

when congress froze armed sales to saudi arabia after khashoggi's death, pompeo invoked an emergencying that we had to sell them eight billion dollars because it was a national security emergency. so he's essentially upsetting it khashoggi because he was not willing to buckle under to the saudis like he was. >> that is a great point, and we should note here that of course the, biden ministration is hardly coverage itself on a new relationship with saudi arabia. there resident oreos fist bump, of the kind of harsh rhetoric that gives away to real politics because gas prices are, high and then you're going to visit him, and it is the same thing that we've seen 1 million times. but the level of supplicants, of mike pompeo, the -- kushner, trump, mike pompeo. to the saudis it was unlike anything that i've ever seen in my career are coming from foreign policy. >> no and they have been paid handsomely for it. the saudi golf courses at the drums golf course, kushner gets two billion dollars in his investment fund, despite the fact that he has no capacity to actually make anybody any money.

the very next day, october 2nd 2018, jamal khashoggi walked into the saudi consulate in turkey. he was never seen again. over the next few weeks it was determined that he was murdered and dismembered by agents of the saudi government. as fred, and the public for the washington post pointed, out the cia later concluded that the saudi crown prince muhammad bin salman ordered this assassination. it's mike pompeo is not just some sharp tongue is a light houston will into politics. he is a very smart man who was forced in his class at west point and graduated from harvard law school, where he ran the harvard law review. he was a four term congressman. the fourth being appointed to lead the cia and eventually the state department. criticizing the media as a time honored traditional politicians, and that is fine. but villainizing journalists and justifying the state sanction murder of a journalist, but it severely polar driver. -- former president donald trump. he made an continues to make countless integrating and attacking comments about journalists and publications. he called immedi

major, do you think pompeo can capture the republican vote by attacking khashoggi or should he go after else beloved like jennifer coolidge? >> secretary pompeo is doing what republicans who fancy themselves as a potential successor to former president trump feel may must do, which is find ways to be outrageous and strident and trumpian that even trump hasn't tried. >> as we all know, mike pompeo's book is a cultural phenomenon on the scale of the harry potter series generated record breaking crowds, let's call a bookstore now to see how they're handling pompeo fever. [ phone ringing ] >> barnes & noble -- >> it's crazy there. thank you for taking the time to take the call. obviously, you know what book i'm looking for, mike pompeo, please just can you tell me you have some copies? >> yeah. i'm pretty sure i saw some come in this morning. let me walk over here. >> okay. great. >> are you heading down tonight? >> my plan was to get there as soon as possible. i was actually even exploring taking a helicopter. >> all right. yeah. i'm looking at it right now. if you come tonight or even tom

i mean notably do mention jamal notably they do mention jamal khashoggi killed the khashoggi who was saudi government and the consulate in istanbul . and so, consulate in istanbul. and so, yeah, he was he was murdered there, was recorded and really back to mohammed bin salman to believe if you listen to the guy having his fingers cut off and stuff like that. so and i saw this this, this is really group that made this this spyware . that made this this spyware. yeah they're culpable in the yeah there's never been the excuse of they're trying to use a never used to get round a court appearance before so yeah yeahi court appearance before so yeah yeah i think they should be even though even though the government's there are prosecuting them of probably use this software as well. yeah i think , i messed the khashoggi think, i messed up the khashoggi points made it sound the other points i made it sound the other way around it's other things like was an investigation like there was an investigation islamic were islamic state and they said were using stuff and you know using this stuff and

i mean notably do mention jamal notably they do mention jamal khashoggi killed the khashoggi who was saudi government and the consulate in istanbul . and so, consulate in istanbul. and so, yeah, he was he was murdered there, was recorded and really back to mohammed bin salman to believe if you listen to the guy having his fingers cut off and stuff like that. so and i saw this this, this is really group that made this this spyware . that made this this spyware. yeah they're culpable in the yeah there's never been the excuse of they're trying to use a never used to get round a court appearance before so yeah yeahi court appearance before so yeah yeah i think they should be even though even though the government's there are prosecuting them of probably use this software as well. yeah i think , i messed the khashoggi think, i messed up the khashoggi points made it sound the other points i made it sound the other way around it's other things like was an investigation like there was an investigation islamic were islamic state and they said were using stuff and you know using this stuff and

want, federal judge dismissing the lawsuit filed by the fiancÉe of the murdered journalist jamal khashoggi for "the washington post" in the saudi embassy in a simple in turkiye, him throwing out sovereign immunity? >> to date, carolyn maloney and senator elizabeth warren both announced their going to be investigating payments to jared kushner and to steven mnuchin for confit of interest for reasons that are specified. and they're very hopeful about those investigations will now be expanded to payments to the trump organization. clearly, for many, need papers president trump -- many favors president trump greater to mohamed bin salman's extraordinary protection for mohamed bin salman and his role as the murder of jamal khashoggi and result in direct payback for president trump and his son-in-law and treasury secretary -- we don't know. in terms of lawsuits against mohamed bin salman, which was recently dismissed because the biden administration's recognition of sovereign immunity for crown prince mohamed bin salman, i think it ju reflects the favors, protection, all kinds of grants of favor

i mean, what does that say that pompeo has more harsh words for jamal khashoggi, a murder journalisttweeting out a picture with somebody at the agency he used to head saying was responsible for that killing? >> it is incredible. i mean, simply the audacity to talk like that about the man that literally died seeking the truth, and that is what is so outrageous that pompeo cannot see that, and that, once again, is one of the huge dangers of trumpism, we are seeking the truth, it is synonymous with the enemy. anyone that seeks the truth or that speaks truth, anyone that holds people accountable like he did are called activists, and they are called the enemy, the winch hunt, and so it is completely outrageous. we know that if he was -- not challenging oppression and power, he would be alive. he did his job, he is that, it is outrageous. >> meta, in their statement about trump said that they are going to put some guardrails in place for his accountant the event that he puts of qanon related material, but he has been regularly posting and sharing qanon mean is on his truth social account.

saudi desperate to move on critics say from the murder of "washington post" commentator jamal khashoggitar, saudi arabia ran commercials for its surging red sea tourism industry. now there are rumors it may self-bid to host the world cup in 2030. and it isn't only soccer and golf, here in the swiss alps we're thousands of miles from the saudi arabian desert, or are we? saudi arabia's presence at the influential world economic form rum in davos is unmissable. this week the kingdom bought three separate sites, then it can afford it, while the world worries about recession, oil producer saudi aramco saw profits rides by 90% during last year. we are invited to meet the minister of economy, one of many who have flown in. >> we have nine members including seven ministers. >> seven ministers. >> yes. that's impactful. >> that's a substantial part of the saudi government. >> yes. >> reporter: he insists saudi arabia is in the process of changing completely with women now working, its many young people allowed to go to live music concerts. >> this amounts to you want to change the image of saudi

one thing that's true, what saudi arabia did to khashoggi was inexcusable.idual at the same time, the very same government, leader who ordered that has also initiated the greatest social and religious reform in saudi arabia's modern history a reform that has huge national security interest for the united states. because saudi arabia is home of islam. it affects the entire arab muslim world when they took the right turn in 1979 what started then, took this turn, that ended up in 9/11 started in 1979. a saudi leader reversing that's a huge in u.s. interest. you can't excuse what he did to khashoggi. >> should we be upset with germany? are they fully engaged are they part of the solution here or just a lot of feet dragging we had to i don't know when they get the abrams tanks, it's going to be a while, we have to build or something, but this was to get china to get something -- >> to get -- >> i'm sorry, germany. >> yeah, they've had a long relationship with russia, they're basically right next door, their concern as is the united states' concern, ukraine would

the issues that came up about jamal khashoggi, about president macron, the system was not used on thoseeu member state? >> we have terminated a contract with eu member states, but to get into, again, the exact numbers... >> that's fine, thank you-- next question. if a country does not give you a permission to audit, is that a reason for you to terminate a contract? yes or no? >> as statedefore, if they do not allow us to do the audit and do not participate and provide us with information needed in our investigation, yes, that is a reason to terminate a contrac i can state that we've terminated eight customers over the past several years. >> have the united arab emirates and saudi arabia ever gone through your due diligence check and have they passed it? (person coughs) >> as i said, i'm not going to respond to questions regarding specific potential customers. >> given that uae and saudi arabia have been using pegasus software, who are legitimate actors to issue warrants in these countries according to your checks? >> again, i repeat it again, i'm not going to respond to questions regard

you saw it in many ways in the saudi plot to assassinate jamal khashoggi. similar thing. journalist in the united states but also an activist and dissenter and of course tragically killed in turkey. >> and important to raise his name when we're talking about something like this for sure. thank you for coming on. >>> coming up next, an exclusive on supreme court leak investigation. what we're now learning about undisclosed ties between the justices and the person brought in to review the probe. we'll be right back. dic uses our one-of-a-kind,, incredibly adaptive tempur® material... to relieve p pressure points and support your body, in a way no other mattress s can. molecucule by molecule, and millimeter by millimeter. all night. every night. now is the perfect time to experience the mattress ranked #1 in customer satisfaction by j.d. power, four years in a row. learn more at tempurpedic.com. ♪ my relationship with my credit cards wasn't good. i got into debt in college and, no matter how much i paid, it followed me everywhere. between the high interest, the fees... i fel

and one thing that you talked about in your book, you called khashoggi an activist and almost seemed but give the saudis some cover because it's what they do. and i'm wondering, do we give the same cover to china with uyghurs? where do we -- how do we navigate through what we think is morally correct and we sort of dispense it differently depending on our own self-interests >> that's what we should do, my goodness >> my job, when i raised my right hand as secretary of state, it was defend america, our constitution our way of life. no one makes light of the fact that jamal khashoggi was murdered i signed the documents to sanction them. but you can't make them a pariah nation president biden comes in and says this is a price and he ends up going on their knees to beg them for energy. we had a deep security relationship in the kingdom of saudi arabia that matters to the american people and we were unabashed and not apologizing for our country. it doesn't mean you have to forgive, it doesn't mean you have to condone, but make no mistake about "the washington post" who went after me vicio

crown prince mohammed bin salmon is condemned for the killing of khashoggi, and a military operation putin, the list goes on. last year he fist bumped with president biden, and with russia, cut oil production against the president's wishes, although oil prices have since come down. and in december, he welcomed china's president xi. these days, the chinese buy a lot of saudi oil. you say with all of these meetings, you're bridging global divide. the accusation is you're too close to the russians, for example, the chinese. >> saudi arabia has strong relations with all of its partners. >> reporter: that's it? that's the answer? and america should just know that, what's the message to america? >> we have a very strong relationship with the u.s. as we discussed. >> reporter: the saudi plan is to move away from reliance on oil. at another exhibition, plans for a new saudi city, carbon neutral. >> saudi arabia from my perspective is on saudi arabia's site, and that is a side that is very good for the whole world. >> reporter: this year, the saudi government said it helped with negotiations

reveling in the sort of performative jerkitude, minimalizing, rationalizing the brutal murder of jamal khashoggie. that weird triangulation you heard there where he refuses to condemn the actual attack on january 6th, but then at the end, you know, describes the day of glory being the certification of joe biden's election -- election as president, which obviously will not play well down in mar-a-lago. so he is distancing himself from the trump in the sense he said donald trump lost that election, joe biden won that election, it was good that they went along with all of that. so in some ways he is trying to distance himself, but at the same time not distancing himself from the attack. i just don't know how -- how really tenable that position is. and a lot of republicans like including mike pence, you know, want to go halfway, but they refuse to go the whole way and say this was in fact an attack on american democracy, it was incited by donald trump which ought to disqualify donald trump from any office of trust in the united states. you don't get that from mike pence, and you don't get that from

i can tell you, for instance, when jamal khashoggi was murdered allegedly at the behest of saudi leadershipd said, well, you know, you've got to see it the saudis' way. they live in a very dangerous neighborhood. and he intimated that he'd been messaging with the crown prince on whatsapp. so here you have the whole u.s. federal government saying the saudis might be complicit in the murder of a u.s. person, working to develop policy options for the president to hold them accountable, and his son is conducting a parallel track side diplomacy with the crown prince and defending his actions. that was extremely worrisome. i have no doubt it affected the trajectory of u.s. foreign policy in that time period in addition to potentially benefitting people financially after the fact. but because we don't have transparency about what happened then, we don't know whether these financial transactions have any tie to official actions that were taken in that time. >> my last question for you, why is this coming out now? why are kelly's experiences something that you're able to report out now that maybe ea