les mckeown think that's a ridiculous concept. he says there's not an upset to failing. ssica heiren is found of stella & dot. >> les, i think going to start with you, because they are fast is a mantra that so many business entrepreneurs are talking about now. you say don't even think about failing. >> why say that the phrase say palpable nonsense. it's dreadable. it's part of the shenanigans of culture, that you get people say i want you to fail fast and fail often. it's nonence. if you just kept failing fast, never succeeding, and somebody kept encouraging you to do that, well, they're investing in the wrong person. >> well, succeeding is the end goal. but jessica, to get there, do you have to fail? >> i think the big thing you don't want people to be so afraid of trying that they don't start at all. actually if you put out there that they cannot fail, you encourage people to be small-minded avoid risk and you won't get innovation and big ideas. i'm encouraging the idea that people need to iterate their ideas to get to success. i certainly agree with les, the last thing