i'm joined now by maya wiley, former counsel to the mayor of new york city. and msnbc christian ferragus and bill kristol. >> maya, when you look at the rudy argument there, if everything is on the table potentially, that means mueller would face trump in a certain situation, by woodward's reporting undercutting that and would make it seem like this is all posturing. put that not context of bob mueller sending a trump aide to jail today. >> well, if -- first of all, let's just say, a broken clock is right twice a day. and the broken clock of donald trump has said he's afraid of a perjury trap. that's actually rudy giuliani talking point, which is interesting that the president used that today. i think what we have heard from the president is that he is concerned, despite the fact that he has repeatedly expressed his willingness. if i'm donald trump, i'm going to listen to my lawyers and i'm not going to talk to bob mueller. the reality is, it's going to call into question whether or not mueller's going to then take the step of a grand jury subpoena. i don't think you're going to