done nothing wrong and he wants to fight it. >> you write that john dowd was confused about why michael flynn would accept a plea deal? >> yeah, what dowd has said is that there's a question what did flynn do wrong. when comey briefed flynn's conduct with the russians that comey said that flynn it done nothing wrong. why is it that flynn accepted a plea agreement. dowd says -- when i spoke to him today, he said what could we have even pardoned flynn for? he didn't do anything wrong. dowd, denying this story, just to make clear, saying none of this happened. >> when did this conversation happen between john dowd and the attorneys for manafort and flynn? >> these conversations happened last summer. last summer is before manafort is indicted and before flynn pleads guilty. this is as muller -- muller was appointed in may and he was investigating throughout the summer. that's when this happened. >> on december 15th on the south lawn, donald trump was asked about michael flynn and pardons. you have this in your piece, we pulled the sound. hopefully we can bring it up at some point. he's asked -- t

has said and what michael flynn's lawyer said. at the time that the pardon floating apparently happened, michael flynn was not yet cooperating. he has now pled guilty and presumably in connection with that guilty plea and a decision to cooperate, he has provided conversatio details about the nature of a conversation with john dowd. >> could dowd be any trouble over this if this "new york times" report is true? >> it's unclear. it depends on what dowd specifically said. it also depends on who told him to do it. i mean, i think there are different ethical problems arise or exposure problems that arise, depending on what donald trump told him or didn't tell him. i think if he was acting as a rogue lawyer on his own, i find that completely absurd, because you would have to know that at least as a pr matter and as optics matter, if this became known, it puts a lot of pressure on the president and makes him look terrible. on the other hand, if the president had directed him to sort of feel the folks out and let them know that a pardon w

i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. are when you talk about what has happened with the fbi and the justice department, people are very, very angry. >> so we've seen this report in the "new york times" west see what nemd dose two occasions. and you have to assume that maybe he's thinking about it. >> certainly he was thinking about it at the time but the context was very important. michael flynn had just pleaded guilty. the president was being asked about that. you can see the president there is almost trying to give his former adviser and supporter a life line saying, i still support you. you did not do anything nearly as damming as hillary clinton. still talking about that nearly a year after the election yet. , the president has spoken out about pardons before. the question is, is there an exchange for doing something. and it is important to point out they can different things. of course it is on his mind how many he was active in it. we don't know. >> i haven't mattered piece of video in quite some time. there's abso

plus, reports of talk concerning possible pardons for paul manafort and michael flynn and the va secretaryout. the president wants the white house doctor in. here to help break down all the moving parts are michael schmidt of the new york times and robert costa and sue susan page. "morning joe" back in a moment. . because i am cured with harvoni. harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. it's been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. and is proven to cure up to 99% of patients who've have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. before starting harvoni, your doctor will test to see if you've ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. tell your doctor if you've ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate.

michael flynn ended up pleading guilty in december. paul manafort, the former com pain chairman ended up not. he's fighting this. that's why these conversations are important. if the white house, if the president was offering or talking about some type of pardon, is there obstruction of justice here? now, these are all questions. we don't know the answer to these questions. but this new reporting and the white house's very careful calibration today certainly suggests that this may be something that bob mueller is looking into. >> yeah, a lot depends obviously on the wording, assuming this conversation between john dowd and the attorney for manafort and the attorney for flynn took place as the times is reporting, and "the washington post" has also backed up with sources although, again, john dowd deni denies. assuming those conversations took place, the wording of what was said is very critical to whether or not this was an attempt to actually obstruct or just a conversation. the white house, as you pointed out, was very careful in thei

he did not rule it out. >> about michael flynn, would you consider a pardon for michael flynn. >> i don'tt to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. let's see what happens. let's see. i can say this, when you look at what is going on with the fbi and the justice department, people are very, very angry. >> dowd who resigned from the preside president's legal team denied there were any discussions about pardoning flynn and manafort. the president's lawyer ty cobb said no pardons are under destruction -- under discussion or consideration. and sarah huckabee-sanders today toed the line. >> are you worried about what paul manafort or michael flynn will tell special counsel robert mueller. >> as we've said every day since we've got here because you continue to ask about this topic every single day. there was no collusion and we're very confident in that aclook forward to the process wrapping up. >> this process does not look like it will wrap up any time soon. the mueller team just filed new documents in court that said both manafort and rick gates who was top -- the top deputy were communic

for michael flynn? >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. let's see. i can say that. when you look at what's gone on with the fbi and with the justice department, people are very, very angry. >> back in july, "the washington post" reported, "trump has asked his advisers about his power to pardon aides, family members, and even himself in connection with the probe." today former trump lawyer john dowd and current white house attorney ty cobb denied there were any discussions about pardoning flynn and manafort. during today's briefing, sarah huckabee sanders gave a similar response but note her use of present-tense language during this critical point in this answer. >> can you say unequivocally no one here has discussed pardons in this case? >> i can say that ty cobb is the person that would be most directly involved in this, and he's got a statement on the record saying that there's no discussion and there's no consideration of those at this time in the white

>> sarah, the president has said that michael flynn is a good man and also said that paul manafort isman. i'm wondering if the president believes he has the right to use the power of his office, power of pardon, to protect them from what he may see as unfair punishment down the road. does he believe he has that right? >> i would refer you back to ty cobb's statement. there's not discussion or consideration of that at this time. there would be no reason for me to have had a conversation with the president about that. that is not being currently discussed at the white house. >> with whether he believes he has the right to use the power of his office. >> the president has the authority to pardon individual bus you're asking me about a specific case in which it hasn't been discussed so i would not have brought that up with him. john? >> thank you, sarah. the president has the power, not ty cobb. >> which is what i just said to phil. >> not exactly. you talked about ty cobb's statement. the president has the power of the pardon. has he considered, is he considering, would he consider pardo

michael flynn if you recall was charged with false statements, even though jim comey's investigators ly believe that flynn did not intend to mislead them. that is not apparently the conclusion of the inspector general, with regards to mccabe. >> i think that he is right. the law enforcement officials are not above the law. if you or i lied to and fbi investigator, there will be consequences. if mccabe lied, there should be consequences. how would he treat us if we lied to his agents? >> bret: we will follow it. so far nothing, no word on anything whether there are moves in the administration. we have you covered here. next up, the friday lightning round, and the challenge for the president, is it possible, alleged threats against stormy daniels, and winners and losers. ♪ ♪ >> i stand before you today, the rarest of species, the american conservative. americanus never-trumpist. i hope that somebody runs in the primary against the president had i've not ruled it out. >> bret: will there be a primary challenge for president trump in 2020? we are back with the panel. >> there probably wil

he was there at the interview of michael flynn when michael flynn said something false to the fbi. know how all this fits together. these three key facts happened. there was was a recusal there was a relationship between the judge and peter strzok. and the department of justice was making it very difficult as congress both tom and ron have pointed out to do our constitutional oversight. those three facts are indisputable. so, let's ask why that was the case. why can't we get the information and why in fact did this judge recuse himself? >> sean: let's go back to this new reveal and it says congressman desantis in a text message with strzok, page to strzok, rudy means judge contreras is on the fisa court. did you know that? just appoint you had two months ago and they discuss other things and of course peter strzok says we did. we talked about it before and after. i need to get together with him. these two hate donald trump. and then they are best friends with the judge on the fisa court. now, there were four separate fisa court judges that were all lied to because they never inform

has he considered, would he consider pardoning paul manafort, michael flynn or rick gates? >> as i said, an on-record statement from the president's attorney, here at the white house on these matters has made there's no discussion or consideration of this. >> another matter. the trade dealthat you spoke about at the top of the briefing regarding the u.s. and south korea. as part of this new trade deal, each u.s. car maker would be allowed to export 50,000 vehicles per year to south korea. right now it's capped at 25,000. but last year, if you look at most recent history, no u.s. automakers sold more than 11,000 cars to south korea. what makes you think that demand will arise so drastically? >> it also affects the parts component which is a major piece of this deal. we're going to continue working with auto manufacturing in this country. one of the other things that we've seen is an increase in by across the board and people actually making things in america again due to deregulation, due to the tax cuts. we expect business in america to grow and, therefore, the trade compon

the president has sort of talked about this internally, the idea of pardoning michael flynn. and what the range of his pardoning powers is. which is broad. john dowd reached out to the attorneys for michael flynn and paul manafort to bring up the idea of trump pardoning them, this raises the question of whether he brought this up reportedly to influence their decisions before they struck any sort of deal with mueller's team or cooperated with them. there's no indication or no reporting to support that dowd actually discussed this with the president before he made these calls. but there are divided opinions in the legal community about whether this could constitute potential obstruction of justice trying to influence them. some argue that the president has broad pardoning authorities, this would not constitute. others say it could. those authorities aren't unlimited and you can't use it to impede an investigation. john dowd denies he had these discussions. >> she mentioned it, and without getting into the specifics about obstruction of justice, let's keep it simple. why would

talks had been coordinated with trump's transition team. >> the white house cannot argue this was michael flynnff as a loose cannon here. >> a white house lawyer claimed that flynn's guilty plea didn't implicate anyone else. before he pleaded guilty, flynn was facing a lot of tough legal issues. but mueller only charged him with one count. so it's possible that flynn has an even bigger story to tell. >> we're seeing manafort come in now with counsel. >> paul manafort, the president's former campaign chairman is also facing possible jail time, potentially for the rest of his life. he's charged with concealing his work for a foreign government, conspiring to launder millions of dollars, and conspiring against the united states among other crimes. 23 counts in all. he has pleaded not guilty. the special council makes an aggressive argument that this is someone who can't be trusted. >> manafort made a lot of his money working for this man. putin's ally, victor yanakovich. the former president of ukraine. he was a strong man who presided over a deadly crackdown against protesters in the streets of k

yate and said he's innocent and he told the truth and comey said yes, so what does that mean for michael flynn sean: i would predict the new judge sullivan would get to the bottom. he demanded that mueller turn over the evidence and if it is true that flynn and his lawyer didn't fully know that they had been exonerated by the agents, then his guilty plea ought to be set aside. >> sean, he did not know. he did not know about this bit of information. and that is going to be interesting and what greg said is very important. remember flynn was cornered and even after strzok and other agents interviewed flynn, and according to james comey himself. they believed that he did not lie. and so special counsel robert mueller found a way to get him to plead guilty to one count of lying to the fbi. i think there are more questions than answer and we are on the road. >> sean: mueller squeezed him and ruined his life. >> he has to sell his house. and they threatened his kids. my sources tell me they did threaten his son. this is overzealous prosecutors and the powerful government that can ruin you financiall

let's watch. >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. let's see. i can say this. when you look at what's gone on with the fbi and with the justice department, people are very, very angry. >> so of course they handle this in very different ways. paul manafort, the campaign chairman for a time in 2016, he's not cooperating and he is fighting this. but michael flynn, of course, a short-lived national security adviser, is cooperating and has pleaded guilty. so as this plays out, the big questions, is this add go it all to the obstruction of justice case that bob mueller is also apparently looking into. >> thank you. i want to bring in the panel to talk about. this you know a thing or two about this. from a legal standpoint, would a presidential lawyer raising the issue in conversations with folks who at the time were being investigated, now been charged, is that evidence of obstruction of justice? >> you would have to know a lot more about what the conversation consisted of to know if this was evidence of obstruction of justice. the presiden

three sources tell the new york times that dowd's conversation with michael flynn's lawyer occurred sometime after dowd took over last summer as the president's personal lawyer. at a time when a grand jury was hearing evidence against flynn on a range of potential crimes. the times also reports that the pardon discussion with paul manafort's attorney came before his client was indicted in october. the washington post reports said dowd over the summer relayed to manafort's lawyers that a pardon was a possibility. the fbi raided manafort's home in the early morning hours of july 26th. yesterday dowd told the new york times quote, there were no discussions, period. as far as i know, no discussion. white house special counsel ty cobb said in a statement quote, i have only been asked about pardons by the press and have routinely responded on the record that no pardons are under discussion or under consideration at the white house. but others with roles in the trump white house say there have been pardon conversations and reportedly talking to the special counsel about it. two people with knowledg

discussion they had about strzok's friendship with a federal judge who later went on to manage michael flynn'ssecution. judge rudolph contreras sat on the very secretive fisa surveillance court during the time flynn was under investigation. and in these new texts, strzok and page discussed the judge's appointment and even floated the idea of hosting him at a cocktail party. page writes rudy is on the. if isc. did you know that? just appointed two months ago. strzok replies i did. we talked about it before and after. i need to get together with him. she goes on to say i can't imagine either one of you could talk about anything in detail meaningful enough to warrant recusal. to which strzok replies really? rudy, i'm in charge of espionage for the fbi. any espionage fisa warrant that comes before him what should he do given his friend oversees him? page replies standards for recusal are quite high i don't think this poses an equal conflict and he doesn't know what you do? strzok says generally he does know what i do. not the level or scope or area. but he is super thoughtful and rigorous about et

was the trump legal team trying to keep michael flynn and paul manafort from cooperating in the russia probe? >>> the date is set for leaders of north korea and south korea to meet. welcome to "early start." i'm michelle kosinski. >> great to have you here, my friend. i'm dave briggs. it is thursday, march 29th. you know dr. ronnie saying he has incredibly good genes. we have david shulkin out as secretary. in this case, we are told chief of staff john kelly gave shulkin the head's up on the phone. he said questions about the travel have been distractions getting in the way. the president campaigned hard on veterans. >> the big surprise was not shulkin's ouster which was rumored for weeks, but who is nominated to replace him. his personal physician. dr. ronnie jackson. unsurprisingly the performance on tv had to do with the selection. dr. jackson's white house briefing said the president's health played a part in his decision. here is a look back. >> no indication he has any cognitive issues. the president is sharp and ar articulate. look at his

michael flynn, the former national security adviser, has pled guilty. legal analyst michael zeldin is with us, our chief political analyst gloria borger. also joining us on the phone is joe becker, breaking the story for "the new york times." give us the made head line. what have you guys learned? >> well, we know that a lawyer, as you said, a lawyer for mr. trump talked about pardons, broached the idea of pardons both michael flynn and paul manafort. this happened as the special counsel's investigation was really heating up. especially as it relates to mr. flynn. these discussions took place over the summer at a time when the grand jury was hearing evidence against mr. flynn on a range of potential crimes. of course, mr. flynn ended up cutting a deal with the prosecutor. so one question is, you know, would this prevent him from cutting a deal and telling the special it would be very, very unusual for mr. dowd to do something like this and freelance it. but we know that mr. trump himself, you know, raised the idea of pardons. so, you know, i think it's,

we know the president criticized the investigation into michael flynn.inks it is weak and flimsy and praised paul manafort at length calling hmm a good man. we know the president has not fully distanced himself from either one of these figures. whether he made the observations or sanctioned them, we don't know. >> page, i'll play you some sound i'm open cessobsessed ove last fall. this is after the first indictment was issued, the lawyer kevin downing. listen first thing he said. >> i think you all saw today that president donald trump was correct, there is no evidence that mr. manafort or the trump campaign colluded with the russian government. >> it just struck me as interesting last fall that the very first line of defense that he had was for president trump, not his own client, paul manafort. i'm wondering, if perhaps now we have an explanation, maybe he was trying to curry favor with the president. >> john, i think that's absolutely correct. it makes no sense for manafort's lawyer not to be discussing the merits of their defense. these are very seri

between one of the president's outside lawyers john dowd and the turns for paul manafort and for michael flynn. this was before manafort and flynn had pled guilty to the charges -- or before flynn had pled guilty to the charges that the spk brougecial counsel brou against him, before manafort was charged. and these conversations speak to the tone that we've been hearing about at this white house for some time. the president mts has been asked about his willingness to pardon these individuals. and he has pushed dit off sayin that he will wait and see what happens. but the white house is now denying that these conversations are happening. dowd has denied that these conversations are happening. but of course this report from the "new york times" definitely raises the question of why this was being considered. and what they thought manafort and flynn might say to the special counsel that might be problematic for president trump. >> all right. abby phillip for us at the white house, thank you very much. we'll talk about this pardon issue in a moment. first though here to discuss some other things,

and we'll see what michael flynn wants to do. but right now as far as we know, remember we are usually behind things, things are happening behind the doors we don't know about. but stars we know, that agreement between michael flynn and robert mueller still exists. >> i want to get to a side issue. peter strzok and lisa page are still working at the fbi. they were involved in all these manipulations to keep trump out of the white house. they were pushing very strongly the trump dossier, the piece of garbage. it is clear now that even the people involved in creating the dossier didn't believe a lot of the stuff that was tonight. we are now getting information that mr. steele who wrote the thing out didn't believe some of the most of salacious things that were in the trump dossier. >> there is a new book out by two of the journalists who were briefed by christopher steele, two of those journalists have written a book, and as far as we know that steele continues to maintain what he calls the broad assertions of his dossier are corre

december, the president would not rule out pardoning flynn. >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. let's see. >> reporter: but dowd denies he ever discussed pardons with lawyers for flynn or manafort, saying, "there were no discussions, period. as far as i know, no discussions." dowd resigned just last week, frustrated the president wasn't taking his advice. now, president trump facing another legal headache. >> he's like, you're smart, beautiful and a woman to be reckoned with. i like you. i like you. >> reporter: the lawyer for porn star stormy daniels asking a federal judge in california for permission to depose the president and his attorney, michael cohen. he says there is precedent. former president bill clinton was forced to tape a video deposition in the paula jones civil case while he was still in office. this white house asked if president trump would sit down for the deposition? >> i'm not going to get into a hypothetical question. >> reporter: all the while, president trump still silent, no public appearances for the fifth day. >> a lot to p

"new york times" reports that former lawyer john dowd may have floated the idea of pardoning michael flynn and paul manafort as special counsel was building cases against both men. was dowd trying to influence flynn and manafort to keep them from cooperating with with the investigation? >> so robert mueller's probe has drawn a direct link between a trump campaign official and russian intelligence officials. a new court filing says former deputy campaign manager rick gates made frequent calls to a person the fbi believed had active links to russian spy services. so we'll get into that. in the world of entertainment, roseanne barr is back after two decades. her sitcom's reboot drawing millions of viewers. it caught the attention of president trump. we'll tell you about the call he made to the show is's star. let's begin your coverage with abby phillip live at the white house with with our top story. abby. >> reporter: good morning, alisyn. it seems like every week that goes by, there is another firing here at this white house, this time it's the former v.a. secretary david shulkin who is now

the firings of james comey and nsa's michael flynn. national security adviser michael flynn.it seem like the walls could be closing in on this president? is that why he's -- >> well, i mean, he knows more about what they want than we know, and mueller knows more about what he's after than he knows, so it's hard to say, the one thing that i think is interesting is people -- i saw allen dershowitz earlier on anderson's show saying that he thinks the special council is overstepping his bounds and so on. it seems to me that mueller's being careful and he's examining those areas that relate to russia. that i find interesting, of course he's going to look at the firing of comey and the departure of flynn. i'm sure flynn now having turned witness is telling him exactly what trump knew about flynn's activities. nothing on that list do i find particularly surprising. >> i can't wait to see the axe files. you talk to charles barkley? >> yes, charles barkley a week from thursday. >>> white house insiders aren't the only ones who continue showing up. what stormy daniels is tweeting now a

paul manafort who served as the campaign chairman during the course of the campaign, and also michael flynn, the first national security adviser. we received a statement from ty cobb. he is the in-house counsel for the president. he addressed this topic. he said i've only been asked about pardons by the press and routinely responded on the record that no pardons are under destruction or under consideration at the white house. there was some question then left about whether this is something at any point that was discussed or considered and my colleague kristen welker focused on that when she spoke to sarah huckabee-sanders in this briefing. take a listen. >> ty cobb deals with the president so i want to ask you specifically, did the president direct john dowd to talk to the attorneys for paul manafort and michael flynn about potential pardons? >> i'm not aware of any conversations of that nature at all. >> did the president have a reaction to these revelations in "the new york times"? did you ask him specifically. >> i did not talk to him about it specifically. but again i've an bn in a num

in december, the president was asked about pardoning michael flynn. >> about michael flynn, would you consider a pardon for michael flynn? >> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. >> joining us now, harry lit man, a professor at the university of california. jill wine-banks, and john hileman. jill wine-banks, i want to go to you first on this issue of what was john dowd up to? the "new york times" reporting on the face of it, indicates a possible obstruction of justice case involving john dowd possibly. >> it absolutely does. now we have to keep in mind that he denies that it happened. they had multiple sources that they that it did. and if he was offering a pardon in exchange for influencing the testimony, that's clearly a part of obstruction. it's exactly what happened during watergate when they talked about pardons. when they offered hush money to keep quiet. now we have hush money paid to porn stars, as you just designated them. so it could be that he is in very deep trouble right now, john dowd. >> harry litman, give me your reading leg

the discussions happened before michael flynn copped a plea and paul manafort was charged.

and the firings of fbi director james come and national security michael flynn. he topics telling you about the investigation, michael? >> well, so these topics cover a couple of things. they clearly cover obstruction of justice, the false statement out of air force one is one of those things. and so might be some of the circumstances in the trump tower denials after they took place. but it also indicates this the firing of flynn -- the conversations with respect to the sanctions which flynn was engaged in implicate coordination, the so-called collusion investigation. so from these four topics i think you see mueller focused on coordination and also obstruction ever justice. i'm surprised this is the list. i would be more surprised if this was the complete list. because i think there are other things that mueller has on his mind, the wickky leaks communications, the possible financial crimes ala manafort and gates. this is a broad stroke of what are primary issues of conversation but not an exclusive list. >> okay. so that said -- you know you're right about that.

president all trumped administration mass to replace michael flynn who was fired fourteen months ago the retired general was the second secure. adviser to the u.s. president trumpet mcmaster both say the decision was mutual will be replaced by john bolton who has advised several republican presidents he's been a stern advocate for the use of military force against iran and north korea and it's become almost customary the trump makes decisions and announcements like this on twitter so this is what he tweeted i am pleased to announce that effective ninth of april john bolton will be my new national security advisor and i'm very grateful for the service of general h.r. being master who had an outstanding job i'm always remain my friend carefully how it has more now h.r. been masters time with the trump administration. general h.r. mcmaster will become the national security adviser he arrived at a tumultuous time just a month into his presidency trump had fired national security advisor michael flynn for lying to the vice president over his conversations with the russians it is both dipl

michael flynn, you recall, was charged with false statements, even though comey's investigators reportedly believe that flynn didn't intend to mislead them. that's not apparently the conclusion of the inspector general with regard to mccabe. >> martha: it was such a great point because michael flynn is still waiting for his sentence. i think the final chapter of the michael flynn story perhaps is not written yet. when you go back and you take a look at what andrew mccabe did, misleading the investigators according to these reports, about leaking to the media and also about this laptop that his office had uncovered, which belonged to huma abedin, hillary clinton's very close associate and her then husband anthony weiner and he waited three weeks during the heat of the election to sort of pass that information up the chain of command, right? >> that's particularly odd. you have one of the highest profile investigations in the department of justice, they give this laptop which is a seismic event and it seems to get lost for three weeks. it's like the entire bureau was contemplating for three

"the new york times" is reporting a presidential lawyer floated the idea of pardoning michael flynn and paul manafort last year, as the special counsel was closing in on those high-level former trump campaign aides. this hour, i'll get reaction from senate judiciary committee member, chris coons, along with our correspondents and analysts. first, let's go to our chief white house correspondent, jim acosta. jim, it's official now, the va secretary shulkin, fired. >> reporter: that's right, wolf. it's as if the president had this in his back pocket, waiting to unveil it on the american people, announcing that he is replacing his va secretary, david shulkin, with the white house physician, dr. ronny jackson. dr. jackson, you'll recall, made a name for himself, you might say, by declaring the president to be in excellent health. but i'm told by a white house official that some of these questions about david shulkin, ethical questions over at the va were becoming too big of a distraction for him to carry out the president's agenda when it comes to reforming care for our nation's veterans.

dowd stayed he didn't know why -- he told michael flynn, the president had long believed the case against flynn was flimsy and was prepared to pardon him. can you parse that pardon reference to the president, a ppp? ronado? >> i was just as surprised as dowd when flynn flipped, because we know that comey asked what was asked by trump to let flynn go, so we know that trump felt strongly about flynn, but i'll tell you what that really means is that flynn was probably concerned about his son being prosecuted or concerned about state charges or there was some other reason why flynn flipped and we won't know now, we don't know now, but eventually i'm sure we will learn what that is. >> and margaret, again, you are here joining us because of your extensive experiencing in a nonpartisan capacity in dealing with his pardon and clemency issues, so you know as well as i do how often tweets are part o about time you pardoned general flynn, who has taken the biggest fall for all of you given -- what do you make from what we can glean from that, which is for some reason, we have this new report from t

>> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet. we'll see what happens. let's see the. >> msnbc national security contributor michael schmidt is one of the reporter who's broke the story for the "new york times." first, let's talk about the timing and the context under which these discussions happened. >> so this happened last summer. this was at a time that mueller was building his cases against manafort and flynn. this was when they were trying to figure out what evidence the government had. and there was concern within the president's circle about what cooperation from these two would look like. particularly by flynn who had been around for the entire campaign and obviously for the first three weeks in the white house before he was fired. >> okay. but so the context is that the cases are building. there's a worry i guess that they're going to talk. and dowd is talking to flynn's lawyers and manafort's lawyers individually and sort of floating the idea what if the president were to pardon you? >> dowd had the lead in dealing with both of these lawyers.

morning. >> good morning, guys so president trump's disgraced former national security advisor michael flynnynn is talking about himself, while stumping for a california congressional candidate. >> i'm not here to complain about who has done me wrong. >> [laughter] >> or how unfair i've been treated or how unfair the entire process has been. you know, it is what it is and my previous statements. >> this as new work texts between fbi agent peter strzok and fbi lawyer lisa page have surfaced. they reveal that in july 2016, they discussed strzok's friendship with a federal judge who would later handle flynn's prosecution. so in these new texts, strzok and page discuss hosting a cocktail party with federal judge rudolph contreras. he serves on the fisa surveillance court. on july 25, page wrote, rudy is on the fisc. did you know that just appointed two months ago. strzok replied i did and we talked about it before and after i need to get together with him. page continued, i can't imagine either one of you could talk about anything in detail meaningful enough to warrant recusal. to which strzok r

michael flynn close a plea deal. and he's fighting these very serious charges in court. and a roll of the dice for manafort nelson thinks the government has overstated their case. >> or he thinks maybe he will be pardoned. that could also be part of it. let's look at the big picture. we know that president trump has presided over a cover-up of all things russian for more than a year now. the question is, is it a nixon cover-up? and these developments today make it look more and more definitive that it probably is a criminal cover-up by the standards of most legal experts. we don't know that for sure. but we're tying together both the question of the president's actions in relation to promising things that will in fact impede and instruct mueller's investigation, and also, we are seeing in the gates developments, which also affect manafort because they were business partners, gates and manafort, and russian intelligence agent alleged worked for both manafort and gates. and we're beginning to see the outlines, perhaps, of a real, quote, collusion case with the trump campai

and the firing of national security adviser michael flynn. so those are the ones that -- so those are what they're talking about now. so his interests go beyond those four topics though. don't you think it goes beyond that? it goes beyond just simple collusion, i would think. that's why i asked john about is in an obstruction case. so this is not ending anytime soon. >> it's sprawling. just think of all the buckets here. number one, gets to the basic issue of collusion. two and three on your list get to more of the obstruction of justice. four, i think, is one that's gotten a little bit forgotten in the recent months of a lot of news, is this flynn case and whether mueller is looking into a logan act violation. remember the logan act? we were talking about that. you go back and you read the filings in the flynn case. remember, he admitted to lying to the fbi. there's some interesting clues in there. he talks about a very senior official in the transition who knew about what the conversations he was having with the russian ambassador. mueller

>> i don't want to talk about pardons for michael flynn yet.ll see what happens. >> would he consider pardoning him? >> i'm not aware that has come up or any process or decision on that front. >> are you going to pardon manafort? >> thank you. thank you, everybody. >> will the president consider or rule out pardoning either of them? >> i haven't had any conversations with him about that. >> the pardon power is quite broad. i have not studied it. i don't know whether that would be appropriate or not, frankly. >> will the president rule out giving pardons to people like michael flynn, paul manafort, and any others in this investigation? >> i have not had the conversation with the president about any of that. >> i'm joined by daniel goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney and natasha ber tram a staff writer at the atlantic. danny, quite a revelation the idea of these conversations dangled by trump's lawyer about pardons last summer but didn't happen. manafort and flynn ultimately the special counsel took legal action against them. from that standp