are michael hayden, who was the director of both the nsa and the cia. he is now principal at the chertoff group. james woolsey, who was also a past director of the cia. he had been an adviser to the trump campaign and the transition team, but he quit before the inauguration. here with me in new york, cristin a-rna rodriguez is a professor at yale law school who specializes in constitutional law. and timothy naftali is a cnn presidential historian. he is a past director of the richard nixon library. mike hayden, let me start with you. you said on seeing the events of this week that it reminded you of nicaragua, or it made you think that america was turning into nicaragua. what did you mean? >> by that, fareed, i meant that the president was going beyond those normal restraints that you referred to. i mean, he was within his technical legal authority to fire jim comey, but the motivation was questionable. i don't mean that the motivation was in question. we know why he did it. it was the russian investigation. but that motivation is very questionable. and

the microsoft cloud turns information into insight. >>> we are back with michael hayden, james woolseyistina rodriguez and tim naftali. michael, looking at the way in which this russia investigation has unfolded the president has fired sally yates, james comey. there was the attempt to get devon nunes to essentially tilt the investigation in its direction. what do you think of all that? is that just smoke or do you think there's fire? >> fareed, i put myself in the position of a foreign intelligence chief when thinking about that recently. my answer would be along the lines you just suggested. mr. prime minister in response to your question it appears as if the administration is doing everything it can to either slow or discredit the various investigations with regard to russian interference in the american presidential election. so i think that's a fair assessment as to what's going on here. fareed, i really dislike special structures, special prosecutors, independent efforts and so on that go too long, too deep, too broad. they cost too much. you lose control, they lose purpose. i ha

you heard michael hayden that is so off the reservation i cannot remember another time in my lifetime. >> i think the difference is, alisyn, if the trump administration had been in office and looking for a way to communicate with someone close to putin, that is one thing. this is in the transition. the first instinct is reach out to theallies. not the russians. if the report was true, it was russian communications. thereby avoiding the normal communications with the white house or state department. that is bizarre. i never heard of anything like that. i have do think it is important that jared kushner have a chance to address these. obviously he is innocent until proven guilty. >> why does nobody get mad in the trump world about what russia tried to do to america? that's what i keep waiting for. instead of all of the evidence pointing to coziness? that should be bigger than your sense of legitimacy or people questioning whether you won. that is shocking about all of this. >> we will try to get you answers in the next hour. >> before 9:00. >> you got it. panel, thank you. >>> another b

we're going to talk to two former cia directors, general michael hayden and leon panetta. we also have congressman jim himes and senator ben sasse, so we're going to get a lot of expertise about what this means and what needs to change. >> also up next, only something you'll see here cnn exclusive former acting attorney general sally yates sat down one-on-one with anderson cooper. this is her ferstl vision interview since being fired by president trump and since that testimony last week. you will hear it right here. >> actually asked you at that first meeting whether you thought the national security adviser should be fired. what did you say? i joined the army in july of '98. our 18 year old was in an accident. when i call usaa it was that voice asking me, "is your daughter ok?" that's where i felt relief. we're the rivera family, and we will be with usaa for life. only tylenol® rapid release gels have laser drilled holes. they release medicine fast, for fast pain relief. tylenol® >>> so former acting attorney general sally yates has given her first tv interview to cnn, an

former cia and nsa director michael hayden called kushner's attempted backchannel unprecedented. >> thiss off the map, michael. i know of no other experience like this in our history. >> reporter: former dni james clapper raised similar concerns. >> my dashboard warning light was clearly on, and i think that was the case with all of us in the intelligence community. >> reporter: homeland security secretary retired general john kell, however, called such clandestine communications perfectly normal. >> it's both normal in my opinion and acceptable. any way that you can communicate with people, particularly organizations that may not be particularly friendly to us is a good thing. >> reporter: for jared kushner new contacts with russia keep surfacing. in addition to the december meeting with kislyak reuters reports that kushner had several previously undisclosed communications with the russian ambassador, including two phone calls prior to the election last november. in response kushner's lawyer tells cnn, quote, mr. kushner participated in thousands of calls in this time period. he has no

bush administration, retired four-star general michael hayden.ppreciate you being here. >> thanks, jake. >> do you buy that this test means in the near future the north koreans will be able to hit the united states and regardless what should president trump be doing about this escalation? >> it depends on your definition of near. they have proven something in the last 48 hours, a real step function. if that thing had been suppressed, had gone other a normal trajectory, it goes out 2,800 miles, it can reach guam, but it's not intercontinental yet, and so the north koreans are -- here's the word i would use, jake. they are inexorably moving in the direction of a missile that can hit the pacific northwest of the united states with one of their own indigenously produced nuclear weapons. i actually think that is inevitable barring some dramatic change in course, and, jake, i don't know what causes a dramatic change in course. if that was obvious, several administrations would have already taken that course of action. i mean, the trump administration i

clappers include james and the former cia and nsa director michael hayden. live coverage from the armed services committee begins at 9:30 a.m. reminder, you can watch live coverage at c-span.org or listen using the c-span radio app. noon eastern on book tv, the military historians discuss their books on world war i at the 2017 colby military writers a symposium. speakers include jennifer keane with her book "world war i, the american soldier experience." the author of the book "the past to war -- path to war." robert ellis on joe and his book "over there." can the recipient of the colby award -- and the recipient of the colby award and his book, "waging war."

. >> many foreign policy experts have expressed concern, including the former cia director michael hayden. here's what he said this week. >> in 110 days, the president has fired a national security adviser, an acting attorney general, and the director of the fbi. this kind of behavior is not normally associated with a mature, western democracy. it's associated with autocratic populist states. >> also, condoleezza right, former secretary of state, is saying she's worried that comey's firing and the way the white house dealt with it is starting to erode people's confidence in her institutions. and here's what one of your colleagues, the u.s. ambassador to qatar tweeted this week. increasingly difficult to wake up overseas to news from home, knowing i will spend today explaining or democracy and institutions. has this made your job more difficult? >> no one has talked to me about this. >> no one? >> i love the fact that i'm in new york and i'm away from all of that. it's unusual for my counterparts in new york to talk about domestic issues. i enjoy not having to be close to those things in d

witnesses include james clapper and former cia and nsa director michael hayden. live coverage at 9:30 a.m. eastern on c-span3, c-span.org and the c-span radio app. thursday, the senate intelligence committee holds a hearing on world wide threat with cia director mike palm may and nsa director michael rogers and national intelligence director dan coats. former fbi director comey was expected to appear but deputy director andraw mccade will testify. live coverage begins at 10:00 a.m. eastern. c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service boy america's cable television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. next, the implications of the presidential election in south korea looking at how it will affect relationships with china, japan and the united states. this is an

james clapper and former cia and nsa director michael hayden. live coverage from the armed services committee beginning at 9:30 eastern. you can watch live coverage of both hearings at c-span.org and listen using the c-span radio app. saturday, at noon eastern on book tv. military historians discuss their books on world war i at 2017 colby military writers symposium. speakers includes -- include other jennifer in key -- jennifer keene, michael with his book the path to war, how the first war war created modern america, retired colonel and his book "over there: america in the great war. and the recipient of this year's colby award and his book "waging war: the clash between president and congress." watch the 2017 colby military writer symposium saturday at noon eastern. on c-span two's book tv. afterwards, on physician and journalist elizabeth rosenthal examines the business side of health care in her book, "un-american sickness: how health care became big business and how you can take it back." she's interviewed by dr. david blumenthal, problem

take a listen to high michael hayden reacting to jared kushner of this secret line to mouscow. >> general hayden. >> well, right now i am goi going -- that's not particularly comforting for me. what manner of ignorance and chaos and contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was as good or appropriate idea. again, it does not make me feel good about many things. >> lets talk more about all of this with our california democrat who says kushner should be prosecuted for not disclosing all of his contact. thank you so much for joining us, what is your reaction to this latest recording on jared kushner. >> thank you, ana for your question. jared kushner should resign and he should be prosecuted for by lyi lying of his security clearance form. he failed to disclose the meeting with the russian ambassador. that was a significant meeting. you would not forget about that meeting on his security clearance form. when he was told to revise the form, he lied again because r t reuters reported there were two additi additional contactcontacts. >> back to what we

general hayden, is this nefarious or naivete? >> michaelright now, going with naivete, and that's not particularly comforting for me. what manner of ignorance, chaos, hubris, suspicion, contempt, would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or appropriate idea? so, again, naivete out, doesn't make me feel good about many things. >> some will read this as another sign of potential collusion. i get a more benign explanation, but not in my view defensible, is the idea the incoming trump administration felt they couldn't trust the obama administration, the intel community or both, and therefore thought they had to go this direction. >> yeah. that's one of the points i was trying to raise a second ago, michael, what degree of suspicion of the existing government, what degree of contempt for the administration they were replacing, would be required. again, to think this was acceptable course of action? it says an awful lot about the campaign, michael. says an awful lot about us as a society, that we could

i hope not. >> you know michael hayden said he has never seen anything like it.ows of no other experience like this in our history. nina? >> even the former cia director said the same thing. listen, let the investigations take place. i'm not sure if jared kushner is naive or arrogant or both. i will say about this russia thing is we have an independent prosecutor. we have intelligence and judicial committees in the senate and house doing investigations. this pre-occupation with russia, this mess that the trump administration has created is really harming the american people to such an extent, we cannot focus in on the domestic needs of the people in flint, michigan and my hometown with an opioid epidemic in the state of ohio. this is problematic. let the investigation go forward. let the chips fall where they may. i'm hoping that people will be able to both let the folks dealing with russia deal with russia and also be able to handle some of the domestic concerns we have. this is something the american people deserve answers. >> how about that, jeffery? all of th

listen to former nsa director michael hayden's take on the controversy. >> what matter of ignorance,, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think of doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? so, again, it doesn't make me feel very good about many things. this is off the map, michael. i know no other other experience like this in our history, certainly within my life experience. >> in the meantime, president trump's sons donald junior and eric trump and his wife laura met with the republican national committee. is right now the right time, julian, to be making this a priority with a white house that is facing so much? >> meeting with the republican party about 2018 and 2020 might make some sense and what the republicans on the hill are thinking about. the focus has to be on the scandal and response to the scandal on handling these multiple investigations but they realize their mainly firewall is the fact that republicans control congress and i think the administration is counting on that to protect them. so what do members of congress care about

joining us is general michael hayden, former cia and nsa director.o much for being with s us. it fascinating that the president and his staff not denying the "new york times" report last friday he called former fbi director james comey a nut job and says the firing relieved pressure on the president. start with the appropriateness of such things. >> john on so many levels that would be inappropriate. you should not talk about your own government, your over governance with a foreign official that way, and i certainly wouldn't trash talk about a former director of the fbi in the front of a foreign official like lavrov, and kislyak. isn't it amazing the contrast between how carefully crafted the last two days have been in saudi arabia and in jerusalem, compared to that absolutely horrific meeting last week with the russians in the oval office on practically every level. >> general, as you know, he also reportedly divulged classified, sensitive information to those russians. what do you think about that? where does that go? >> look at the line-up. the fa

former cia and nis director michael hayden called the kushner's back channel -- >> no other experience like this in our history. >> james clapper raised similar concerns. >> my dashboard warning light was clearly on and i think that was the case with all of us in the intelligence community. >> homeland security secretary retired general john kelly, however, called such clandestine communications perfectly normal. >> both normal in my opinion and acceptable. any way that you can communicate with people. particularly organizations that are maybe not particularly friendly to us is a good thing. >> for jared kushner new contacts with russia keep surfacing. in addition to the december meeting with kysliak, warnings that kushner had previous undisclosed communications with the russian ambassador including two phone calls prior to the election last november. in response kushner's lawyer tells cnn kushner had thousands of calls in this time period. he has no recollection of the calls as described. there is another investigation deadline tomorrow. michael flynn must answer a subpoena from the s

mcmaster sees it or michael hayden when he says this is off the map. >> i see it the way general haydenis absolutely off the map, he's 100% right about that. the big issue is the fact they wanted to use, reportedly, the russian communication system to have that communications link to moscow. that is unprecedented. there is no doubt back channel communications have been used many times in the past, used to great effect in some cases historically as you've mentioned, but there are so many issues using a foreign communications system especially one related to an adversary of the united states and that would be russia. >> can you speak to the utility but also their danger? >> yes. usually what will happen is somebody in a high position will ask that a message go to a particular country or to another element of the department of defense, or to the white house, and if you are in a position where you handled communications links like i did and n part of my military career, you can actually be in a position where you handled messages that let's say one other element of the government is not sup

. >> i want you to listen to this because this is the former cia director michael hayden. he was on cnn earlier. here's how he sees kushner's meeting about back channels. >> in general, back channels are an important part of diplomacy. this wasn't in general. this was specific. i wouldn't even call it a back channel, at least in the way governments use back channels. i've been a back channel. i've taken messages from president bush to foreign leaders below the radar so they would not attract news so that the conversation could be discreet but this was a transition team in waiting. trying to establish secret communications. not secret from the russians. secret from the americans while the government in power, president obama's administration, was facing and making decisions of a very serious nature with regard to the russian federation. i wouldn't call this a back channel at all. >> the response has been from the administration and also from supporters that other administrations have had back channels, but you heard what michael hayden said there, mark. he doesn't see the k

few people alive today know the intelligence world better than michael hayden, so make no mistake, when you hear those words from him, you know that those are views that are reflected by senior people currently in the intelligence community. the bigger question, though, martha, is what about jared kushner's role? as you mentioned at the top of the show, there is no adviser closer to the president, his office opens right into the oval office, he has taken on a portfolio bigger than anybody in the west wing, and you see -- you hear people now very close to the president openly saying that it is too much. that he now finds himself at the center of this investigation. even if he is ultimately completely cleared, he is at the center of this investigation right now, and you hear people close to the president quietly saying, is it too much, and is it time for jared to take a step back? maybe even take a leave of absence from the white house. >> and do you think that's something that president trump would agree with? >> well, you know, trump is looking for -- there's a lot -- there's talk of ma

here is michael hayden. >> i'm going with naivete.at is not particularly very comforting for me. i mean, what manner of ignorance, chaos, hubris, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? >> so you hear the former director of the fbi, right? naive, ignorant, hubris, contempt, chaos, suspicion. are any of these words you would use to describe jared kushner? >> no, not at all. and i think that's an outrageous characterization. and i think that's what you get from guys who have been in the government forever. the american people elected a president whose chief asset was that he was going to do things differently. he wasn't a lifetime politician. and he has appointed to his cabinet other people around him who are not sullied in the long-term ways of washington. and as you saw from the very personal, angry tone the former cia director just used in the clip you played, it breaks some china as you do it. >> it does. although another former cia director j

joining me by phone, general michael hayden. former director of both the cia and nsa.ood evening, general. thank you for joining us. i want to get right off the bat, your initial reaction to this breaking news. >> well, i think quite surprising, don, and frankly there was a very informed discussion that you just had. this isn't really about the power of the president. he has the power to do this. it's more about the person of the president and the performance. we're seeing the results of his being a bit undisciplined, impulsive, instinctive, intuitive. little patience for preparation and little patience for process. and when he goes off script like this, he does things that are ultimately destructive of his own purposes. >> let's go through this, all right? so i want to get back to this meeting, okay? the meeting. it's in the oval office. according to president trump, vladimir putin asked him to have that meeting. this is while the russia investigation is going on and only one day after the president fired the fbi director, james comey, which the president would later

for that we're glad to turn to former nsa and retired cia director general michael hayden.ting between jared kushner and gorkov, why would someone like kushner need a direct line to putin if in fact that's what he was looking for or the president was looking for? and why would he be talking to a banker with the kind of background that gorkov has? >> well, the published story, anderson, is that sergey kislyak recommended that he talk to gorkov which might have been kislyak's way of doing what the trump team wanted, which was to establish this back channel to president putin. now, to answer your question, why would they want to do that while we were in a transition? why would they want to do that while the then president obama was actually coming up on a very serious decision with regard to sanctions against this same vladimir putin and the russian federation? i just can't explain that. that's why this is a controversial thing. back channels is back channels. fine. i've actually been a back channel for president bush. but doing it this way with this actor while you weren't in

donald trump during the campaign in the early days of the presidency, like former cia director, michael hayden well, and it was an important signal and an important message he sent with that airstrike on the airfield in syria and he did it in a respected and fine way. maybe you will need to reassess. i don‘t know about you guys, but many people, including us guys, felt it was a good decision. if syrians are going to drop chemical weapons on civilians, the president of the united states, as a matter of principle, should go out and hit them and hit them hard and that is what he did. but i want to draw a distinction between hitting a syrian air base and coming up with a political plan going forward that will address this carnage in syria in the long—run. i have seen no effort, really, to address the politics or the diplomacy of the issue, no effort to address what syria should be when the war ends. i think president 0bama failed miserably on that, but i don‘t see any renewed effort from president trump to say, 0k, we are going to lead a diplomatic effort and work with others and see what we can c

it's a great thing to have general michael hayden who is here today to talk about his 41 year career in the air force and in the national intelligence and national security area and talk to us about his book, playing to the edge: american intelligence in the age of terror. the title playing to the edge is kind of a sports metaphor i think. it's like pushing the envelope or playing right to the edge of the field with truck in your cleats and it's appropriate that general hayden would use sports metaphors. he practically was born in the shadow of the pittsburgh steelers stadium. >> they tore down my home to build three rivers stadium. >> all right. and we didn't mind because it was the steelers. >> modestly dangerous comment. >> he was born in pittsburgh, of irish catholic family and the son of a welder. in junior high school he was quarterback of his football team and coach of the football team then was the son of the founder of the steelers, the connection with his team who goes way back and there's actually a road now along the side of the stadium called michael hayden road and he w

. >> general hayden is this nefarious? >> well michael i'm going with nigh yef they and that's not particularly very comforting for me. what manner of ignorance, chaos, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? so again, it doesn't make me feel very good about many things. >> we heard jack use the word about nay eve. bob to you agree? >> i do hope it nay yooef te. it doesn't look good for us in any case and never will. the alternative is they knew what they were doing and it was some sort of secret agreement that they're keeping from the government, that would be much worse. if it would be a real collusion with the russians. i refuse to believe that so far but we got to see. >> bob bear, jack barsky thank you both. >>> coming up russian misinformation, why would former fbi director james comey let a piece of russian intelligence he knew would be fake drive him to reveal hillary clinton's e-mail habits. next. ked some older people when they actually di

witnesses included james clapper and michael hayden. live coverage beginning at 9:30 eastern. you can watch live coverage of both hearings at c-span.org and listen using the c-span radio app. ♪ >> c-span's washington journal live with news and policy issues that impact you. coming up this morning, heather mcghee will join us to talk about the aggressive agenda in the trump presidency. george washington university fbiessor, on the firing of director james comey. be sure to watch washington journal. join the discussion. ♪ >> c-span, where history unfolds daily. in 1979 c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and it is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. >> next senate democrats host a meeting on the republican of care replacement bill.

. >> michael hayden was on with michael smerconish yesterday. to that point, he is of the opinion now this is just stupid in the sense that because of mike flynn perhaps talking to kushner, kushner decides we can't trust the obama people, so let's have this back channel communication. here's general hayden's take. >> is this nefarious or nigh ef ta? >> i'm going with nigh ef ta and that's not particularly very comforting for me. i mean, what manner of ignorance, chaos, human being rouse, suspicious, contempt, would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian am babassador was a good or an appropriate idea. >> yeah, i mean, it seems like a couple of things going here. both kushner and a lot of people close to this president have never seeped to really grasp what they lack in terms of their understanding of how things work in washington. how diplomacy works, how foreign policy works. and so, they charge forward in the transition and elsewhere, doing things without really con stult sulting with people who did know. and the question o

. >>> we're also hearing from michael hayden, the former director of the cia and the national security agency. he tells our michael smerconish that a back channel like the one kushner allegedly talked about with the ambassador that that would have been, quote, off the map. >> general hayden, is this nefarious or naivete? >> right now i'm going with naivete, and that's not technically very comforting for me. what manner of ignorance, chaos, hubris, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? >> let's bring in leslie benjamori from london. good to have you with us. >> morning. >> let's talk about this, this concept of a back channel. is this something that could be considered reasonable and common for an incoming administration looking to make a policy change? or is it indeed as just mentioned here, off the map? >> i don't think it could be considered reasonable. remember, the idea that you would establish a back channel that would be, prevent the fbi from being aware of a communication when you're a p

let's discuss with general michael hayden and the former director of the cia and nsa. he wrote about the firing in an op ed for the hill. what is your take? >> what i said was it looks like -- a lot like nicaragua here in the united states with the multiple firings and the difficulty of getting an accurate and consistent story out from the white house. so i do think there is some fundamental threatening of the processes on which we relied for two and a half centuries to keep ourselves a free and a safe people. >> all right. let's talk about this. i want to get your take on rod rosenstein and what happened. the white house says that the deputy a.g. went to the white house for a visit with jeff sessions, by the way, the attorney general, and shared their opinion about director comey. and they felt that he had, sort of, lost his ability to i guess leave the fbi. and president trump said can you put all of that, your opinions and thoughts on paper? and that became the predicate for firing him. what do you think of that narrative and if rod rosenstein was somehow duped. >>

we have abby phillip and david gregory along with general michael hayden. general, he could not be certain of collusion. he did see contact and communication with russian operatives. >> alisyn, it is what you classically expect your foreign intelligence chief to say. we have massive evidence of russian intervention in the election. we know the russians attempt to suborne people. we have the unexplained contacts with russians and the trump campaign that looks suspicious. we will turn it over to law enforcement. it reinforces the cause of the investigation. it doesn't conclude it. it gives legitimacy to the effort that is currently under way and against which the white house continues to push back as totally unwarranted. >> did you hear brennan say i didn't hear of any proof. i don't know of any proof or which was it? did you hear him say there is no proof or i don't know if there's proof or not. >> i think it is i don't know. chris, it is really important to understand that one element of the proof would be the contact with trump officials and people in the

i want to bring in retired general michael hayden, the former director of the cia and the nsa, the national security agency. thanks so much for joining us. >> thank you. >> what's your reaction to this report we just heard from jim shoo that acting attorney general sally yates has information that contradicts what he was saying, that he was lying and could be compromised by the russians. >> this has hauls been a curious time line and jim put it all together. it appears as if flynn was fired not because of what he had done, but because what he had done was going to be made public by "the washington post" the next day and that seems to have accelerated whatever decision-making was going hon in the white house. the president blamed a lot of people, blamed sally yatesinor, an alleged intelligence reeker and even brought in ambassador rice at one point as the president of this play. i think it was the president who passed the message saying it was time for mr. chairman flynn to go and has had a very successful wilt career. >> why was this nursed along for so long? >> 18 days before sally yates w

joining us to discuss is national security analyst and nsa director general michael hayden. here. >> thank you. >> sally yates will be hamstrung in the open session. what do you expect to learn? >> this is fascinating, alisyn. let me say at the end of the day thes white house is not going to be enthusiastic with regard to what is said in the committee. this will not settle the issue down. what we have here are two career profession professionals. one in justice. these people are simply candidly answer questions from a very knowledgeable interrogate or, senator lindsey graham. we will learn a lot that we hadn't had detailed knowledge about in the past. >> let's dialogue it out a little bit. sally yates says it wasn't a head's up. i went in and went in early and told them. we know what flynn said to this guy and it is not the story coming out of the white house. he could be compromised by russia because of what he exposed himself to. now what? >> first of all, chris, we know that objectively. the last time we chatted, if the acting attorney general insists on seeing the white

i will ask general michael hayden about the possible explanations. >>> and america's newest member ofrged with assault of a newspaper reporter the night before he was elected. you'd have

michael hayden said it seemed like flynn was fired not because of what he had done, but because it was going to be written about in the "washington post." that seems to make it worse, that it could have gone on longer than 18 days if "the washington post" didn't break the story. >> i agree with general hayden, that's certainly the appearance, and that's why we need more information in the white house on this. ms. yates isn't going to be able to answer that in testimony. but the white house has got to answer what happened in that 18 days. did they take the information seriously? then why did it take 18 days. and general flynn resigned on the day that "the washington post" story popped. they were driven by news and the potential for embarrassing stories, rather than trying to do the right thing and trying to discern what exactly happened here. >> when you see it on the calendar, that's a long time. >>> hillary clinton getting candid about the final days of the cam pain and what she believes cost her the presidency. >> i was on the way to winning until the combination of jim comey's lette

. >> michael hayden says this likely ends up in a position where people did things that were wrong but not to a point where they could be guilty of anything. we'll have to see. let me ask you one question in terms of this being about the president. he says according to the no"the york times", that comey, he's a nutjob. i have fired him and now that pressure is off me from that russian investigation. if russian obama had ever said that, matt would run down the street. how do you justify that behavior from the president of the united states? >> i think obama did take some heat when his exchange was overheard and we all got to hear that he would have more flexibility after the election and we all understood. >> do you think it is up to james comey, the head of the fbi. he's a nutjob, matt. that comey is a nutjob forget about obama. forget about him. he's gone. >> let me answer. >> what did trump mean and can you back, do you support him saying that to comey. >> maybe you didn't see the article i wrote about jim comey. i think it was perfectly for him to fire jim comey. i had alberto gonza

i spoke with michael hayden yesterday, former cia, nsa director. he says doesn't have to be nefarious explanation. it could be naivete or hubris. jared kushner, trump team imagine we can handle this. we're going to do it back channel. we'll go, deal with russians directly. maybe it retlekflects a distrus the intelligence community. they didn't want their conversations listened to, wanted to make this back channel deal. the president tweeted this morning calling it fake news. it's not the first time we've heard i. it's a deliberate attempt to mud y the waters. as you say, chris, it denies the facts. set aside what we in the media reported. it is the senate and house intelligence committees, democrats and republicans on those committees who say this is still an open question, a question of collusion. it's the fbi. james comey before he was fired testified under oath that collusion is still an open question. this is one of the topics that special counsel robert mueller who served both democrats and republicans, said it's still an open question. so it

listens to graduated them also a professor at the naval academy is a great thing to have general michael hayden here with us today to a talked-about his 41 year career in the airforce national intelligence and national security area to talk about his book of american intelligence in the age of care. the title is a sports metaphor to play to the edge of the field and ended is appropriate general he did reduce the sports metaphor to be born in the shadow of the pittsburgh steelers. >> factually toward down my home to build three rivers stadium. [laughter] >> so the irish catholic family as part of a welder in as the founder of the steelers in paris this day road on the side of the stadium as equipment manager in doing airforce rotc and dotted is degree in american history. st. peter's elementary school in north catholic school figured large in his upbringing and he makes it clear in this very personal memoir, it is education really mattered to him. the further i got in my career so this book has a lot to say about the importance of education at that age and enter standee still get up early on sun

general michael hayden joins us next. you too, unnecessary er visits. and hey, unmanaged depression, don't get too comfortable. we're talking to you, cost inefficiencies and data without insights. and fragmented care- stop getting in the way of patient recovery and pay attention. every single one of you is on our list. for those who won't rest until the world is healthier, neither will we. optum. how well gets done. ♪ ♪ i'm dr. kelsey mcneely and some day you might be calling me an energy farmer. ♪ energy lives here. i like russo. his on/off splits are the best here. yeah, but his offensive win shares didn't even break 4. come on, check out that stop-and-pop! what do you think? my trade-off analytics indicate no one creates more space on offense. this allows him to nail a jumper from a densely populated urban area. what you're trying to say is from way downtown? i am still learning. i can see that. >>> in about 90 minutes, senator democrats are expected to grill james comey about the election and russian's meddling. let's bring in the former director of

listen. >> general hayden, is this nefarious or is this naivety? >> well, michael right now i'm going with naivety and that's not particularly very comforting for me. i mean, what manner of ignorance, chaos, hue bruise, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or appropriate idea? so again, the naivety out, doesn't make me feel very good about many things. >> so julian, how will this white house go about explaining whether it is naivety or something nefarious? >> i think it will try to choose a third option and the option was this was an effort to lay the groundwork for a diplomatic break through with russia in dealing with issues such as syria. i don't think they want to say that kushner was naive, nor that he was doing something illegal or treasonous. the problem is the context, the context is the russians are trying to -- were intervening in the election, they were intervening for one side over the other, they were interested in easing economic sanctions and we have a long record of officia officials i

i want you to listen tonight, this is general michael hayden.ke with my colleague, anderson cooper, about comey's firing. listen to this. >> my international network has kind of checked in with you guys are going to be okay, right? and so i was just trying to describe that this kind of behavior is not normally associated with a mature western democracy. it's associated with autocratic populist states. >> do you actually feel that could be the future, that's where we're heading? >> look, i lived enough in the world, america has sent me to places, usually places that weren't happy at the moment and i have seen how thin the veneer of civilization really is. >> this is coming from a man who's a former four-star air force general, nsa director and cia director. what's your reaction? >> well, look, i can understand, i worked for general hayden. i can understand why he's uncomfortable, but let's be clear about this, the fbi does counterterrorism, they do white collar investigations, they do gang investigations and one of the things they do, in this cas

a move michael hayden blames on naivety. what manner of ignorance, chaos, suspicion, contempt would you have to have to think that doing this with the russian ambassador was a good or an appropriate idea? and that is the big question surrounding all of this. is it a grand scheme or just a case of inexperience? michael kranish is an expert in all things kushner. co-author of trump revealed. i read your piece and i think so much of what is known about jared kushner is this idea that he speaks to the president in soft soothing tones so therefore is the gentle one and that is not the picture you paint. tell us. >> no, eels rk, he's 36, he ha look to him and he hasn't really spoken publicly since he's come to the white house. so he's sort of a mysterious figure sort of like forrest gump in all the photos but you don't hear him talk. so we decided to look back at his ten year business career. and you can see that he does not hold back. he's very trumpian in the way that he go after folks. he is a hardball political character. he s

the former cia director michael hayden said i know of no other experience like this in hour history. where do you stand? >> i think if you're asking for a backchannel the first mistake you're asking is for that to be secretive and conduct it through the russian embassy. it the means you're trying to hide something. it means you might be embarrassed with what you're going to say our don't want our u.s. intelligence to say it. you know, government officials talk to each other informally all the time. the fact that kushner is trying to do this -- tried to do this in such a back-handed secretive way really brings up a lot of questions and at the same time not notifying us during his security clearance about this is also a problem. it really questions whether this man should have security clearance and in my opinion he's not acting like a responsible adult and shouldn't have security clearance at this point. >> your problem is not necessarily having a backchannel but having one that would use the russian embassy and washington communications and not go through u.s. communications, it is t

folks like michael hayden, who was the president of the national security agency, and the head of the cia, he said this kind of move was off the map. in his words he said i know of no other experience like this in our history, certainly within my lifetime. within my life experience. so this is a question that is going to raise concerns not just on capitol hill but also among the various committees investigating this russia matter and, of course, the special counsel investigating the russia matter. it's just one more story line in this story that we seem to have bombshell reports on nearly every day. >> but with jared kushner who some folks have nicknamed the secretary of everything, right, seen as this, you know, these are not the kind of headlines the white house wants to be having right now. >> absolutely not. >> thank you athena at the white house. now to that striking statement from german chancellor angela merkel after several meetings she had with president trump. let's go to our senior international correspondent fred pleitgen. fred you have spent an inordinate amount of time i