mueller. she's trying to control him with the ear pinch and the dog is looking totally off in another direction. >> to the defense, it was clear. fred's story was entirely plausible and the prosecutions was not. >> why would he do this? why would a guy who was married for 27 years, with no history of violence, no history of any sort of domestic dispute, all of a sudden decide on his vacation that he was going to murder his wife with his bare hands? it just seems that part of the case seem so farfetched. >> friend after friend arrive from texas to support fred. even his in laws took the stand. leslie's own mother, jenny, vouched for her son former son-in-law's character. >> all those years, any signs of fred being abusive or violent to leslie? >> no, i never saw a sign in fred being violent. to anyone. >> and each of fred's children also faced the jury to tell them about their parents long and happy marriage. ariel described one nightly routine. >> mom and dad would walk to the pond that was in

mueller, we'll hear from you now, please. dr. mueller: thank you. senator ossoff, senators, staff -- senator oreceive: make sure -- senator ossoff make sure your microphone is on, please. dr. mueller: is this better? thank you. the first thing i want to do is take this opportunity to praise karina for her courage and bravery for coming today. although difficult to hear and heartbreaking, it certainly gives voice to the medical records that i reviewed and my colleagues reviewed as well. my name is margaret mueller, i'm a physician and i hold specialty board certification in ob/gyn and subspecialty board certification in female pelvic medicine and reconstructive surgery. i have a faculty appointment at northwestern university where i serve as program director for the female public medicine and reconstructive surgery fellowship. i was part of an independent medical review team made up of nine other board certified ob/gyns and two nurse practitioners. in 2020, we reviewed the medical records of 19 women who alleged medical abuse and mistreatment wile in

mueller has testified to. short-term infection, pleading, as long as scarring around the reproductive organs and could be infertility and scarring that could be consistent long-term pain. these are things that are not insignificant and which is why medicine has tried to minimize the necessity of these procedures over the course of decades to get to the point where we can identify the individuals where the risk benefits show up and the potential risker. again, vast majority of these risk benefit than the one ha that is to evaluate. and overall benefit from one of these procedures. senator osoff: thank you for your service. ms. breeze addo, if there is anything you would like to add and the american people to hear, the floor is yours. ms. preciado: because of this incident with happened with dr. amin, i am extremely scared to go to any doctor for myself and for my kids. it was extremely traumatic. and i don't know if i can get over it and scared to take my kids to the doctor. it was horrible. and the reason i'm

>> well, i mean, on the first point, on sort of looking at mueller and comparing to mueller, i wouldt similar to that, to mueller's report, the writing of the report in the public sense is not sort of something that we see a lot in major federal investigations. and i think there was an extraordinary naching of the questions of the 2016 election and trump's ties to russia that led to the disclosure of that. most times in federal investigations, the powers, the criminal powers are used to figure out whether there's charges and then if there aren't charges, then everything sort of goes away. which sort of brings us to, you know, the question at happened here, which is that if the department were to not charge, i'm sort of thinking way ahead here, and you had a special counsel, how would you communicate that to the public? would you do that simply in a one or two-statement public release from the department? my guess is that would not satisfy a lot of people. do you head down the road of trying to explain it in the way that comey did. comey was widely criticized for doing that so you're

not unlike robert mueller. kind of guy who anyone on the street will have heard of, but everyone within the department will. i'm sure opposition research in the house of representatives is already going on. but you cannot get someone who combines more sort of broad experience and respect with no previous profile to attack, so that's the explanation, i think. >> i sort of, we want to go back something to merrick garland said, that it was important for him, for the american people to know, that there was independence and accountability. right? and there are going to be people, very strict partisans who will never be happy, and we talked about that, no matter who you appointed, but for the american people, for the average american voter, do you think, lisa, they look at this and they say, okay, d.o.j. has stepped back, merrick garland has stepped back, we are in the middle of a political season, we are with a former president who is running for president, and this guy who seems to have a great reputation, is someb

mueller's body was found.up the creek, we noticed that the creeks flow didn't seem very strong. it didn't push us around as we were walking. >> we were careful with their footing in the sense that there were slippery rocks underneath the water. but it wasn't hard to go against the current. >> the deputy couldn't help but wonder, how had leslie's body floated so far? >> the water was coming down but it's not a raging river. it's not fast moving. >> deputy casey reported back to sheriff bruce, who, by that time and talk to the couple who lived by the trail and it helped a friend in those first frantic moments. but they said it costed a new light on fred story of that awful day. >> a little tickling at the back of their necks that instead of some red flags to them. >> they told chair bruce that asked called 9-1-1 and set out to help in the search, fred was frantic one minute and seemed calm the next. >> they said the vibes were all wrong from him, here they became very uncomfortable. >> did they kind of like, in

he hated bob mueller as we all know. the difference here is that as president, he could threaten to fire bob mueller at any time. he had control over him. the difference here with mr. smith is that he's a citizen, and he cannot threaten to fire him so mr. smith can do his work without worrying that the president of the united states is going to chop his head off, and he said today that this will go forward expeditiously. i'm sure the trump people are worried that this is going to hang over their campaign like a -- like a soggy, wet tent, but on the other hand, they also know that donald trump is very good at playing the victim as he did after the search at mar-a-lago, and he's very likely to do it again. >> and john, cue the opo research that team trump is no doubt doing right now? >> sure. >> they can't come up with anything, and i remember this from robert mueller the conspiracy theories from the trump team and right wing media. >> facts will have nothing to do with the full frontal assault on this guy. bob mueller was

he had the doj overseeing the big calls with mueller.l layer, what's the alternative? the answer is, well, one answer is the justice department just going forward with the work without doing this. because garland cited these campaigns as the public interest special circumstances, right? i keep repeating that for a reason. is that really special? i'm going to give you the answer with the evidence. no. prosecutors investigate politicians all the time without special counsels. donald trump is just some guy. if he's elected president again, legally, he won't be some guy, and we'll report on that. but right now, he's just a guy. and the doj has investigated plenty of candidates and politicians without special counsels. take a democratic senator, bob menendez. he was indicted for bribery allegations. he beat that case in a mistrial. doj dropped it. take a very famous convicted politician, who was actually, as a footnote, pardoned by trump. democrat rod b lo ogoovec. just this year, there was a nebraska congressman convicted of lying while they

mueller, we'll hear from you now, please. dr. mueller: thank you. senator ossoff, senators, staff -- senator oreceive: make sure -- senator ossoff make sure your microphone is on, please. dr. mueller: is this better? thank you. the first thing i want to do is take this opportunity to praise karina for her courage and bravery for coming today. although difficult to hear and heartbreaking, it certainly gives voice to the medical records that i reviewed and my colleagues reviewed as well. my name is margaret mueller, i'm a physician and i hold specialty board certification in ob/gyn and subspecialty board certification in female pelvic medicine and reconstructive surgery. i have a faculty appointment at northwestern university where i serve as program director for the female public medicine and reconstructive surgery fellowship. i was part of an independent medical review team made up of nine other board certified ob/gyns and two nurse practitioners. in 2020, we reviewed the medical records of 19 women who alleged medical abuse and mistreatment wile in

we saw this play out with robert mueller several years ago. the simple fact is removing it from the chain of command to some extent, to the justice department, is very valuable. the other point i would make here, the one person who was not there on the stage, and that was jack smith. that was to give at least the sense of clarity that this is a separate individual from outside the justice department who is coming to take this matter over. and it's almost the best of all worlds. at least in the justice department's perspective, because number one, as has been said, he gets all of the staff that have been working on this for quite some time. and number two, a future president cannot really fire a special counsel except some extraordinary reason to do so, like he literally shows up to work drunk or something like that. the attorney general doesn't have the same latitude he would with a senior political appointee. i know there are people who might criticize this decision, but it had to be done regardless of what the president's actions were previo

but we also have that lesson of the mueller investigation.s second of trump special counsel starts on his work, can this one benefit from lessons learned about how to resist that kind of interference and political pressure and intimidation that we know is coming? and that has undone high-profile political investigations of this kind in the past? what can the special counsel do right now to avoid getting kneecaps like the investigators who have gone before him? one man who is a key singer member of the previous efforts joins us next, stay with us. movies are dreams... that you never forget. [speaking non-english] [speaking non-english] [speaking non-english] [speaking non-english] ♪ ♪ this... is a glimpse into the no-too-distant future of lincoln. ♪ ♪ it's what sanctuary could look like... feel like... sound like... even smell like. more on that soon. ♪ ♪ the best part? the prequel is pretty sweet too. ♪ ♪ announcer: type 2 diabetes? discover the power of 3 in the ozempic® tri-zone. in my ozempic® tri-zone, i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost

we also have the lesson of the mueller investigation.nd trump special counsel starts on his work, can this one benefit from lessons learned about how to resist that kind of interference and political pressure and intimidation that we know is coming and that has undone high profile political investigations of this kind in the past? what can the special counsel do right this time to avoid getting knee capped like the investigators who have gone before him? one man who is a key senior member of the previous effort joins us next. stay with us. among my patients, i often see them have teeth sensitivity as well as gum issues. does it worry me? absolutely. sensodyne sensitivity & gum gives us the dual action effect that really takes care of both our teeth sensitivity as well as our gum issues. there's no question it's something that i would recommend. >>> now that a new special counsel has been appointed to oversee ongoing criminal investigations into former president and current congressional candidate donald trump, are there lessons learned f

he downplayed their finding, and said that mueller found nothing.ort being one of the most damning indictments of a president, ever. it documented no fewer than ten instances where trump obstructed justice. the mueller probe, ultimately, resulted in no recommendation of charges for then president. not today. the former president, holding the unique title of being the subject of not one, but to special counsel investigations. today's announcement by attorney general, merrick garland, to appoint the special counsel's overseeing two scrolling investigations into the former president was, as you can imagine, met with a more mixed reaction. they fear that some will delay the investigation, those, of course, being trump's handling of classified white house documents, and his role in efforts to overturn the 2020 election, including inciting that violent mob on january the 6th. there are others who see it as, essentially, a capitulation in trump's earlier decision to launch a 2024 campaign. but, no one really knows what will happen here. the only thing that

i l have one additional question for doctor mueller. your testimony stated you and the medical review team found a disturbing pattern of overly aggressive medical care sometimes involving unnecessary procedures. your testimony notednt some womn presented with symptoms not appropriately evaluated, diagnosed or managed despite the patient undergoing invasive surgical procedures. her testimony further explainsul the general requirement for informed consent. could you elaborate on what information would be shared with the patient, what requirement or expectation is there regarding possible language barriers as well? >> thank you. you bring up great points. you have meaning full informed consent discussion to adequately reflect shared decision-making between a patient of physician it seemed to take away any barriers, language being one of them so in any of those informed consent discussions there should be an interpreter present to utilize. it is very important to understand consent is not a signed piece of paper, it's a discussion between p

mueller had to hire a whole team to do all of that. here by contrast, particularly -- well, there's two parts of jack smith's investigation, one is mar-a-lago, the other january 6th. with respect to mar-a-lago, it sure seems like the department's very far along in their investigation, going so far as to execute search warrants at mar-a-lago itself. so, you know, one of the concerns you always have with a special counsel is how much delay is there going to be when you have to bring a whole new person up to speed. here at least with respect to mar-a-lago there's probably a bundle of materials that the special counsel can just read and borrow the existing apparatus of the justice department including their investigators, line prosecutors and the like so you don't have to start from scratch. with january 6th, it may be a different thing. we don't really have much window into how much the justice department has investigated with respect to high-level wrongdoing, where they certainly brought over 800 prosecutions against low-level folk who i

that was one of the things that robert mueller investigated.jack smith is less of a politically known person in washington. he has worked in washington before, he has dealt with and been in a decisionmaking role in some very significant political investigations, public integrity unit investigations from the justice department. i've just been hearing that he was in some of the top meetings whenever there were charging decisions being considered against the former governor of virginia, bob mcdonnell. but really he has not been operating in washington the way that mueller had been as the fbi director. but he will at the end of this have to produce a final report and make very extensive, significant decisions in the same way mueller and his team would have had to around what to do with a president, in the case the foermer president. >> shan wu, how much confidence do you have in jack smith? >> oh, lots of confidence in the man, very good reputation. he is walking into a historically unprecedented firestorm. he might want to consider keeping his off

this should move more quickly than the mueller investigation. if it's mar-a-lago, this is a very finite set of crimes, finite amount of evidence, and finite number of witnesses. it should not take an exhaustive type of investigation. there are real risks here for the former president. statements made to the fbi about the presence of classified evidence at mar-a-lago. this was a self-inflicted wound and it could be potentially charged and so i think that's where most of us will be looking in terms of the special counsel but garland may give us a better idea of the scope of this investigation. >> john: so as always, any time something like this happens we rush to the white house for a response, jonathan. according to a white house official, the doj makes decisions about criminal investigations independently, we are not involved. i would refer you to doj for any questions on this. that coming from rich edson. and when you think about a special counsel, obviously gives political insulation to merrick garland who will make all the decisions regarding

mueller. most notably, because of justice department policy, mr. mueller was forbidden to charge a sitting president. now that mr. trump is a former president, mr. smith is not subject to that limitation. trump also no longer has key weapons he wielded to frustrate the mueller investigation, the destabilizing threat of firing the special counsel and justice department leadership to curtail the scope of the investigation and the ability to dangle and bestow presidential pardons to discourage witnesses from cooperating. mr. smith has other advantages that relate to the status of the work he is now called on to perform. he is assuming the helm of two substantial investigations in progress, with designated teams of prosecutors and agents he's inheriting. he is not, as mr. mueller was, required to fly and build the plane simultaneously. the big questions and the big legal battles ahead for special counsel jack smith is where we start today. mike schmidt is here, washington correspondent for "the new york times." also jackie alemeni and andrew weissmann

on what to learn from the mueller probe.son mid would be able to learn from the mueller probe? >> well, i think there are a couple of lessons to be gleaned from that, and the essay that you just cited definitely hit on a few of them. number one, trump is no longer a sitting president. so, some of the precautions and constraints that mueller approached his investigation with do not apply in the situation with jack smith and what he's trying to do. one of the other things that i felt was a very poignant point that came out during that essay was the notion of how you engage the public narrative. mueller was very, very quiet about it from the standpoint of we are talking about a current sitting president, and anything that had been revealed about the investigation in his findings prematurely could have really rocked democracy at its core. now that you are talking about someone who is no longer an office, it's very important that jackson be savvy enough, along with merrick garland, as to how to engage the public narrative around

he said that i've been proven innocent for six years on everything from fake impeachments to mueller who found no collusion and now i have to do it more. it is not acceptable. it is so unfair. it is so political. he continued, i'm not going to partake in it. i announce and then they appoint a special prosecutor and he added this, he said that he

go back to the days of kent star and bill clinton, go back to bob mueller.idn't trust bob mueller. >> those are independent under the statute. >> right, but people say special counsel, independent prosecutor, someone who's appointed in order to avoid a conflict. people now particularly if you're a donald trump supporter believe there is no way to avoid a conflict, that it's all corrupt, that the justice department is corrupt. so merrick garland was going to be damned one way or another. and so we had a choice to make, and he decided to kind of say, look, you know, one president to be, wano be has announced and the other one has the intention to announce, so what am i supposed to do? i want to make it look optically as clean as i possibly can. >> ron desantis says what? >> you'd have to ask him. i don't speak for the governor of florida. >> but what do you think someone who wants to run against donald trump, i'm not saying he does but hypothetically another republican candidate who wants to run for president says what? >> i think there's going to be outreach

we saw that with special counsel robert mueller. he had separate offices that of course, cnn was staking out and also john durham. they don't operate inside main justice or inside buildings with other justice department officials doing their work. he will, though, be overseeing many of the same people that are working on this investigation. this is something underway for quite sometime. now, they will also have their own budget. there is really no limit on that. that is, though, interestingly, that is one of the few things they have to go through congress for. otherwise, congress is not allowed to get the details of the special counsel's work so interestingly, this really does insulate the justice department and garland from congressional oversight on these two highly controversial probes. >> that is a very significant change between yesterday and today. and also, potentially pertinent given republican control of the house. thank you so much for your reporting. >> more now on the reaction by the former president, i'm joined by chris

that was essentially the mueller report.ant to ask merrick garland today that we pledge to release to the extent key any kind of written report from the special counsel, merrick garland did not take questions. one thing that this does do, in the unlikely event that this investigation lasts two years, and there's a new republican president, this makes it harder to fire the special counsel, it makes it harder, it makes this investigation more insulated from a republican president and a republican attorney general. of course, if that president is donald trump, i don't think anyone doubts that we have no problem firing the special counsel. >> i was going to say, you know, the question mark on that. and also, you know, paul, go to you for some analysis but ken you say the unlikely event that this could last two years, didn't the robert mueller investigation last nearly two years and the john durham investigation was a multi-year investigation, two other special counsels appointed regarding actions that donald trump had taken afte

he's been likening it to the mueller investigation time and time again. will say on tuesday night, we talked about the idea that what was, in part, driving that announcement from trump was the idea that if he announced he was running for president, it could potentially shield him from investigations. there is a decision by the justice department to pursue something there, that is not going to change that. whether or not it delays the announcement of a special counsel, that remains to be seen if that is a path they even go down. i think he's kind of in this field where you saw the investigation in the search of mar-a-lago happen in august. that was something that the former president felt boosted him. he heard from republicans who came out and defended him and criticized him on his favorite cable news channels. i don't know that the same reaction will happen with this one because of course you've seen the developments that have happened there. you've seen the avenues that the justice department is pursuing, particularly when it comes to the dox investigati

mueller's probe resulted in 34 indictments and preceded trump's first of two impeachments. far from slowing him down, the lack of accountability for trump himself appeared to only embolden him. he simply screamed, partisan witch hunt and about a third of the country bought it. another third was disappointed in mueller. and another third just didn't know what to think. well, now, attorney general merrick garland has decided the mueller process is the way to go in the multiple cases involving donald trump. cases that his own justice department has been pursuing for a long, long time. now, i should note that whatever special counsel recommends, it will still be up to the attorney general to make the final decision. so it will still be for merrick garland to decide whether to bring any potential charges against trump for his assorted crimes. but with garland indicating that this decision was made as a result of trump's announced candidacy this week, two years before the presidential election, it turns out that trump's little stunt worked. as a political investigations reporter

robert mueller was a special counsel before. lifelong republican.and they called him a political hack. there's no way around political turmoil, but this will mute it, at least in garland's view and it's just how he reads the law and the regulations and he follows them to -- wherever they lead him. that's the kind of lawyer and judge he was. >> i wonder if you think this will mute some of the criticism. there's been a lot of conversation about the justice department trying to reach a decision before it gets too much into the 2024 election season. >> earlier in the show, the republicans have made investigating the doj one of their prime targets. it's highly political sized in their minds. i can't imagine who exists out there that would give the impression that this is a completely nonpolitical investigation in the eyes of republicans who see the doj as part of the deep state. it doesn't matter who you are, they see this is an effort to take down donald trump. and i imagine donald trump will be quick to say, here we go again, robert mueller-style inves

it's mueller time, mueller time.oes make it seem like there's an indictment around the corner. and the former president had a weird reaction, saying, "i am not going to partake in it. i'm not going to partake in this." oh, he doesn't want to partake. you know what? i'm no lawyer, but i didn't realize that was one of the options: the suspect does not want to partake in the investigation. "your honor, while, admittedly, the prosecution does have overwhelming evidence of his guilt, my client pleads 'not feelin' it.'" ( laughter ) now, the former president did get some good news this weekend, because on saturday, elon musk reinstated his twitter account. ( audience booing ) no, no, elon, i won't go back. the racism, the misspelling, the calls to violence, the "dot, dot, dots." remember? remember the dot, dot, dots? remember the (bleep) covfefe? i am not, i am not-- ( applause ) you know what? i am not going to partake in it. of course, musk, ever the genius, approached the decision scientifically, with a twitter poll. th

mueller basically started from scratch. smith is picking up at marlowe mar-a-lago investigation could be near completion. it's more difficult case but there's enormous amounts of evidence that have been produced by the justice department and by the special committee in the house regarding january six. so very different prosecutor, very different legal situation. >> carol, could this move create some issues for the justice department? the washington post editorial board argues appointing a special counsel carries risks, not least the possibility that the investigation could drag out or lose focus, potentially letting mr. trump off the hook. it will take tremendous focus to prevent that from happening. do you agree? >> i don't think that's as much of a concern as it may have been under the old independent counsel statute where the concern was, the department of justice had to let go of all control and then the independent counsel just, the prosecutor went off on dalliance is in other areas. here the special counsel regulation

that's something you saw you in the past with mueller as well.eep state sort of plot, they used to call it a soft coup all the time on fox news. that's what i think you're gonna see. you're gonna see them weave out this idea that it's less about smith and more about democrats efforts to finally finish the job here and get trump out of the way. >> talk to me, though, about this interesting moment we find ourselves in, angelo. on one hand the trying to undermine this move it on the other you have more and more of these outlets distancing themselves from trump. >> yeah. there's this weird tension. i would point out that the right-wing media has been in flux, including fox news, and they are not as reflectively pro trump's they had been, which was entirely in lockstep. but they are still more defensive and pro trump then they were. and in 2015. and for most of the early parts of 2016. they were actually aggressive attacks things being said against trump in 2016. that's not happening. it's like you said, it's the distancing. it's an important distinct

mueller essentially started from scratch.h is taking over a well-developed investigation. i imagine he will keep most of the prosecutors and the investigators and keep their evidence. but the other huge distinguishing factor, jim, is when mueller was doing his investigation, donald trump was the president, and under doj policy, could not be indicted. of course, that's not the case. there's no protection, by the way, for a former president or for a candidate for office, no formal protection. so jack smith, unlike mueller, will have the option, at least, to indict donald trump. >> all right. elie honig, we've been watching. we've been watching and watching. we'll continue to watch and have you back. elie, thanks, as always. appreciate it. >>> now to a u.s. supreme court justice denying allegations that the outcome of a key high court decision was leaked at a dinner he and his wife hosted. we're talking about supreme court justice sam alito. the story spins kind of a complicated web, but involves wealthy donors and a landmark ru

you know they let the statute of limitations run out on the mueller, so on and so forth. this is very and this is, again, a thing where i is it not in our own self-interest to not be, you know, obliterated in a nuclear war? i would think it would be in everyone's self-interest. so it's puzzling to me. they haven't acted when i into merrick garland. i mean, i find all sorts of terrible things, you know, many of which are related to his mentor jamie gorelick, who brought him into the clinton doj and is basically the forrest gump of corruption involved in, you know, every major scandal of the 25 years, the financial crisis? 911 she was jared and ivanka's lawyer, though. this is just the thing that i want on record she's who got jared and ivanka into the white house despite the fact that they had lied more than any people in human history and i'm not exaggerating here on their security clearance forms my guess is that if there are secrets being traded or sold, kushner is someone that am suspicious is doing that given that he was given $2 billion by saudi arabia for no apparen

he's had experienced with this with robert mueller. when merrick garland came out, he made it clear he thought it was something that he needed to do because donald trump has announced he's running for president, joe biden has said he will run for re-election. rod rosenstein appointed robert mueller to be the special counsel. he was asked what he thought about this decision. listen to what he had to say. >> i believed under the circumstances i faced the appointment of robert mueller was the right thing to do. merrick garland made a discretionary decision. he believed this would help promote public confidence. >> you wouldn't have done this yourself? >> it's easy to second-guess from outside. my inclination given the investigation that's been going on and given the stage they've reached i probably would not have. >> he's a little bit more skeptical. you have to remember his experience. he saw that having a special counsel didn't necessarily create a lot of public confidence. there were still political attacks aimed at him and robert muel

there are key differences as compared to the mueller probe. trump is no longer a sitting president.ger the attorney general who undercut mueller's recommendations by misstating his conclusions before the special counsel could present them. joining me is andrew weissman. it's good to see you. been wanting to talk to you about this. i know you know him. tell us, who is jack smith? what kind of prosecutor is he by reputation? >> i know jack from having overlapped with him in the eastern district of new york where when he started i was actually the chief of the criminal division. he is a smart, tenacious prosecutor. knows his way around the courtroom. he is adept at knowing what to follow and what not to follow. focusing people on what's important and not letting them get distracted. i suspect, although people are worried about delay caused by the appointment of a special counsel, i think ultimately, this is going to lead to the investigation speeding up, because that's the kind of prosecutor jack is. >> in terms of the cases, mar-a-lago, i think you have said this, probably is more cle

and i think also, if you think about it in the context of the mueller report, one of the frustrations had with the mueller report and one of the reasons it wasn't as impactful as it should have been is there wasn't a criminal referral, recommendation or reference to the fact that donald trump may have committed a crime. it's hard for me to imagine the committee making that same sort of mistake. they have the opportunity here to finish their work with a definitive statement and i think that's a criminal referral. >> don't forget he's not a sitting president. >> that's correct. >> and that's the difference with the mueller report, that was the debate, could a sitting president be indicted. could you offer a criminal referral? and you don't have that issue at this point. >> that's right. >> speaking, you know, one of the things that the house has been trying to go after, katelynn are his tax returns. this was a long fought battle that house democrats were trying to get the tax returns, the fight went to the supreme court, you have some new reporting. what's the latest there? >> this is a

that's of the whole mueller probe was buried going into another they did not collude in russia because of the origin story of the dossier they tried to get him to self-destruct almost anonymously bombshell reports, death by 1000 cuts. if he fires mueller creates a perception there is a they are put in this instance was known for him to fire he's out of power. i think if anything it may help him it would build resentment toward what we call the deep state but i'm not that deep state issue and more of a deep dish guy to be clear. >> of its pizza count me in. bob mueller's must be the gold standard, that is of a cap hearing, what you know about this jack smith? does he have a sterling reputation you're kind of laughed when he said he was supposed to be nonpartisan, do you know? >> something look at him and say he's not partisan. that's yet to be determined. we'll see if you'll be nonpartisan. i have got to go but i look republicans did not go after hillary clinton for donald trump or one whole e-mail scandal and secure information on a private server, you know what? we don't want to look

robert mueller was not much into talking to the press. james comey, obviously now. he was talking to the press too much a lot of people argued. any idea how smith is going to handle this case considering how interested the public is? >> he's a career prosecutor. justice department animal and tradition there are that you don't talk about your cases other than in court. especially around, crime, grand jury information. but you're right. robert mueller took it a step further because there were many times in an investigation where people had stories that were just flat wrong and the mueller team just refused to correct them. so we can only hope if that happens in this case that the people representing special counsel to the justice department will at least weigh in and try to steer reporters on background. but actually, i mean, most people i talk to expect jack smith to run a pretty tight ship and if anything, the circle of information now becomes smaller so we may actually see fewer leaks about this case. >> ken dilanian, thank you very much. blaine, let's go to what's

and what lessons do you think we can and will learn from mueller?e of dÉjÀ vu that none of us want to be experiencing this again. at the end of the day, i agree with fernand. there was no reason to call a special counsel. merrick garland will still be overseeing the investigation that has been going on for close to two years. does anybody recognize that we are headed into 2023 and none of the architects of the insurrection have been held accountable for their crimes? and most of the people that stormed our capitol building have received slaps on the wrist? but on the last, i feel like what you can learn from robert mueller is that this is actually a performance. this is actually something that matters. it matters how you show up. it matters what you say. and also, it matters that after you put together a list of ten ways that this choice increased criminal president has endangered our democracy when you put together that list, here's an idea, why don't we enforce it? instead of using bumper sticker slogans like no one is above the law, i would love

we don't know the answer to that, but alas the special counsel to investigate trump, robert mueller, took nearly two years. so, if that kind of timeline holds, these investigations could likely hangover the 2024 presidential primary, even possibly the election itself, alex. >> we will see. that certainly is a consideration, the timing of it all. thank, you josh, from the white house. joining me now, sadie gurman, justice department reporter for the wall street journal. and criminal defense attorney, msnbc legal analyst, welcome to you both. we'll go ladies first, sadie, what is the attorney general's justification for appointing a special counsel in these two trump probes? >> even before attorney general garland's appointed this special counsel yesterday, these investigations were among the highest profile and the most sensitive in those departments portfolio. but the attorney general said that trump's announcement that he is running again for president, and president biden's own likely intention to run again, or what sort of change the calculus for him, it ultimately deciding to app