it was a story of 1962 of the dirty 30, the raid, you led a raid into north vietnam.it's the sandals versus the shoe story. do you remember it? >> yeah, but -- i was a very first pilot, you know, to work closely with the c.i.a. at that time to cross the border at night, to drop our special team in north vietnam, that back in 1961. and then later, i was a very first -- i was the commander of the air force to lead our aircraft to cross the border to bomb north vietnam. and also many time i asked, you know, president johnson and other people that to stop this war and to win this war. you have to go offensive. otherwise, if you continue to fight the war with so much limitations, you know, and always in the defensive, at the end of the day, you are going to lose. but for some reason, they never listen to me. oh, yes, one time the secretary said something to me like, if we go north, you know, the chinese may come south. and then for the american, they don't want to see, you know, a second korean war. so we always on the defensive, with so much limitation. >> let me interrup

ho chi minh was then the premier dictator of north vietnam. the soviet premier party boss was in hanoi and alarmingly told ho chi minh, you better settle with the americans or they're going to send in more troops and the ho chi minh response was let them send in more troops. the argument being that let's play into his hands, let's go stumbling about in areas that we know little of and that will be counterproductive. ditto in going after the evil- doers following 9/11. why do we play into the hands of our opponents by crashing into iraq and thereby negating so many other possibilities? >> why did we go into iraq? >> we went into iraq because it seemed to be easy, because we were thinking magically. if there's any example of magical thinking, the notion that this could be solved within six weeks, six months or less, to quote both vice president cheney and secretary of defense rumsfeld, the notion that we could transform the middle east and the muslim world in general, that faith that everybody wants to be like us, a whole slew of illusions, plus

it would have been swallowed by north vietnam. i do not think there was any doubt about that, and that was the reason we started going in big in 1964 and in 1965. >> did we waste our men and our money? >> that is a sad, ongoing debate, the extent to which that was blood and treasure squandered we perhaps came close to winning by 1970 or 1971. didn't buy us time for thailand to go stronger or for indonesia to swing to the american camp? these are arguments that have no conclusion and no end. >> #5 is conjuring powerful but simplify images from the depths of history to rationalize huge end -- >> what i tried to do is get into why we keep screwing up. we screw up in foreign policy, which is probably not news to most people. there are countless books right now on afghanistan or iraq, but why do we keep making these mistakes time and time again? why do we keep making these false analogies, whether in korea, vietnam, or iraq? a lot of this comes in the keel of american experience. on one hand we love history. good we are a nation of law

communism has survived, cuba, north vietnam, north korea, perhaps even china. it fosters a sort of feeling of mistrust which plays into the taliban's hands. is there anything we can do to break into this cycle? >> well, so much of what our military effort is directed at doing working with the provincial reconstruction teams is to break into this circle. as you know, the military strategy adopted at the highest level was redefined to be counterinsurgency involving the protection of the local population. isaf forces go to great lengths to protect local populations. they often take losses to protect local populations. the majority of civilian casualties are caused by the other side and they are caused by the ieds of the taliban and others. so i think it's very important to remember that, that we are the forces safeguarding the civilian population wherever possible. and i think karen may have the figures here, but i think it is around 70% of the civilian casualties that are caused by taliban acttivities andeds. >> that's right. 70% ofhe casualties caused by the tal

basically i think he was guilty of high treason and sabotage in johnson's peace negotiations with north vietnam. >> host: given his personalities that he's headed to the profession and those who look at him as a closet intellectual who it wasn't cool in his circle for that to be done, but he was not a natural in the democratic door knocking process, yet he reached the top of the. >> guest: but you know the secret of that. if he studied acting at college he was recognized as a great shakespearean actor, and you see that when you see the archival film of his extraordinary, like the chequers speech in the dome moments he goes before the camera and talks of the silent majority and talks about his people, his background from which the people -- >> host: wasn't he in so is a silent majority? the idea that the little guy who was being exploited, not listened to, punished. >> guest: been fdr's case it was idealistic. there was a man born an aristocrat who could see beyond his own circle and see the true populace of the united states. but in richard nixon's's case, i think it was actually some of that w

sickly i think he was guilty of high treason and sabotaging johnson's peace negotiations with north vietnam >> host: but given his personality -- he set himself on an introvert and extrovert. there's those who regard him as a closet intellectual. you know, it wasn't cool, you know, in a circle for that to be done. but he was not in that borough in the democratic vote. doorknocking process. and yet he -- an anti-reach the top of the poll. >> guest: but you know the secret of that, that he studied acting at college. he was recognized as a great shakespearean and potentially great shakespearean actor. and you see that as the archival films of this extraordinary, like the checkers speech and it talks about the silent majority. it talks about -- >> host: was that in some ways the silent majority. who has been exploited, not listen to, punished -- >> guest: but in fdr's choice it was idealist. i mean again, that's why so admired him. there is a man born to an aristocrat you could see beyond his own circle the true populism of the united states. but in richard nixon's case, i think it was actually

basically i think he was guilty of high treason in sabotaging johnson's peace negotiations with north vietnam >> host: given his personality -- he said himself i am and introvert and extrovert position. those are those that look at him as a closet-- but he was not a natural and the democratic vote seeking, doorknocking process. and yet, he reached the top of the greasy pole. >> guest: but you know the secret, that he studied acting in college. he was recognized as the great shakespearean and potentially great shakespearean actor and you see that when you see the archival film of his extraordinary, like the checkers speech and those moments when he goes before the camera and talks about the silent majority and talks about his people, his >> host: wasn't that in some of the silent majority? punished. >> guest: but in fdr's case it was idealism. again that is why i so admired him. there was a man born an aristocrat who could see beyond his own circle and see the true populists of the united states. but, in richard nixon's case, i think it was actually, some of that was really jenny went, that he

house and pentagon level where you had a secretary of defense that was in such a hurry to bomb north vietnam. it didn't matter what the intercepts actually said. basically you take them to which you're already premade conclusion. the weapons of mass destruction scandal is another example where nsa is not entirely, just a small part of the intelligence failure. [inaudible] >> there have been examples where nsa got it right and analysts at langley got it wrong. for example, the 1968 soviet invasion of czechoslovakia. all the evidence, all the intelligence and from other sources clearly indicated that the soviets were going to intervene militarily and crush the czech government, which they viewed. and for reasons that the cia's intelligence analysts, that the national intelligence officer level set know, the russians will -- babel rattled their sword but they will not do it. so, and this became sort of, this was written in stone and they refused to budge no matter how much evidence. the same with the matter in 1960. all theeidence from the collection standpoint from nsa and others, clearly fore

white house and pentagon level where you had a secretary defense that was in such a hurry to bomb north vietnam the did didn't matter with the intercept said. you tailor them to your already cremate conclusion. the weapons of mass destruction scandal and iraq is another example where the nsa isn't entirely just had a small part of the intelligence failure. -- >> are you saying that the nsa got it right and it's the political process that got it wrong? >> there have been examples where nsa got it right and analysts at langley got it wrong. for example the 1968 soviet invasion of czechoslovakia. all the evidence from the intelligence and from other sources clearly indicated the soviets were going to intervene militarily and crush the czec government, and for reasons that the cia intelligence analyst at the national until the budget officer level said the russians will rattle their sword but they are not going to do it, and this was written in stone and they refused to budge the matter how much evidence. the same thing with the tet offensive in 1968. all the evidence from the collection standpoint

soon he was flying into north vietnam as darkness came over the horizon. it was his 25th mission into north vietnam, flying an f-4 phantom jet. the date was april 16, 1966. the pilot was sam johnson, united statesaire colonel and he was dosh united states air force colonel and he was doing his second duty. he was flying with satan's angels. he was a career pilot who had already flown 62 combat missions during the korean war, flying an f-86 sabre jet. colonel johnson also influence with the famed air force thunderbirds. this is a photograph of colonel sam johnson, united states air force. but this day, this day of april 16, 1966, colonel johnson was shot down by ground fire by the north vietnamese. he was captured, he was put in a prisoner of war camp. and, mr. speaker, he was in that p.o.w. camp for seven years. because of the way that he would not give in to the torture and the interrogation, they moved him to the famous hanoi hilton. at a place called alcatraz. it was where 11 p.o.w.'s were put because they were the most objectsitynant p.o.w.'s. leaders

communism has survived, cuba, north vietnam, north korea, perhaps even china. it fosters a sort of feeling of mistrust which plays into the taliban's hands. is there anything we can do to break into this cycle? >> well, so much of what our military effort is directed at doing working with the provincial reconstruction teams is to break into this circle. as you know, the military strategy adopted at the highest level was redefined to be counterinsurgency involving the protection of the local population. isaf forces go to great lengths to protect local populations. they often take losses to protect local populations. the majority of civilian casualties are caused by the other side and they are caused by the ieds of the taliban and others. so i think it's very important to remember that, that we are the forces safeguarding the civilian population wherever possible. and i think karen may have the figures here, but i think it is around 70% of the civilian casualties that are caused by taliban acttivities and ieds. >> that's right. 70% of the casualties caused by the

vietnam. through military action in cambodia and per bombings against the north, we used military force. vietnam, most of the people wanted to be left alone. it was unfortunate. we came out when we did. that was the will of the american people. if you went to afghanistan, you would find people are pretty much the same. they're caught up in massive forces of history. we are they're trying to protect their security. winning the hearts and minds is a phrase to use an hour truce because you have to respect the population you're working with. on the other hand, we just don't want to have trouble and they are looking for the least -- the path of least resistance to get out of bed. i hope we can find that in afghanistan. i am encouraged by the strategy of general press -- general petraeus and his predecessors have pursued. and just like in vietnam, i think we have to work the neighborhood. one of our principal figures in vietnam as we did not appreciate the full significance of going after north vietnamese support for the south. we did not appreciate it in public. i am concerned there is tremen

vietnam. through military action in cambodia and per bombings against the north, we used military force. of the people wanted to be left alone. it was unfortunate. we came out when we did. that was the will of the american people. if you went to afghanistan, you would find people are pretty much the same. they're caught up in massive forces of history. we are they're trying to protect their security. winning the hearts and minds is a phrase to use an hour truce because you have to respect the population you're working with. on the other hand, we just don't want to have trouble and they are looking for the least -- the path of least resistance to get out of bed. i hope we can find that in afghanistan. i am encouraged by the strategy of general press -- general petraeus and his predecessors have pursued. and just like in vietnam, i think we have to work the neighborhood. one of our principal figures in vietnam as we did not appreciate the full significance of going after north vietnamese support for the south. we did not appreciate it in public. i am concerned there is tremendous support c

the best ning to happen to north korea and south korea is for them to unite, like vietnam did. when vietnam expelled the french imperialist and american imperialist. that's the truth. the united states needs to cut back their military spending which is insanity since we have no enemies and america was complicit in 9/11, of course. and complicit in the rise o al qaeda which is no threat to anyone. the t.s.a. screenings and such at the airport, this is all meant to decrease the freedoms that -- if we ever had any -- of the american people. it's not to guard against terrorists. host: all right, thank you. guest: i wish the world was like john described but i don't believe it is. i do believe we have enemies and states and groups that want to do us and our friends and allies great harm. and we have to act that way. host: les gelb has thought about foreign policy and has been involved in it from just about every angle. his bachelor agree is from harvard. he's written numerous books on the topic. he has taught at places like wesleyan university, worked on capitol hill. he, as i menti

the best ning to happen to north korea and south korea is for them to unite, like vietnam did. when vietnam expelled the french imperialist and american imperialist. that's the truth. the united states needs to cut back their military spending which is insanity since we have no enemies and america was complicit in 9/11, of course. and complicit in the rise of al qaeda which is no threat to anyone. the t.s.a. screenings and such at the airport, this is all meant to decrease the freedoms that -- if we ever had any -- of the american people. it's not to guard against terrorists. host: all right, thank you. guest: i wish the world was like john described but i don't believe it is. i do believe we have enemies and states and groups that want to do us and our friends and allies great harm. and we have to act that way. host: les gelb has thought about foreign policy and has been involved in it from just about every angle. his bachelor agree is from harvard. he's written numerous books on the topic. he has taught at places like wesleyan university, worked on capitol hill. he, as i ment

and there is a call for north korea to return to international talks over its nuclear activities as soon as possible and comes from russia and south korea were president of vietnam war and that simmering tensions in the region could boil over and he was speaking at talks ahead of the g twenty summit and so now is there. everyone understands how important peace on the peninsula is not just for the sake of peace but for the economy and for stability in both russia and south korea understand that this is a big issue for all we hear so much about iran i'm president himself brought up the fact that iran has never declared itself as a nuclear state while north korea very much have so it is a concern for russia once again president medvedev reiterated that moscow is alarmed over north korea's nuclear ambitions but believes the only way to go about solving them is through negotiations and. that requires our special attention is the situation in the asian pacific region and on the korean peninsula we have discussed the issue did nuclearization and have highlighted the importance of six party talks we want to resume as soon as possible in the asia pacific region the re se

north. two marines were killed in the attack in south korea. several homes were set on fire. >>> fire destroyed a kiosk at the vietnam memorial which had been openund the clock for 30 years. a portable heater is likely the cause. >>> the board of elections has certified the races. >>> the early show begins in 5 minutes. >> harry smith tells us what is coming up at the top of the hour. >> coming up, british officials say an announcement will be made shortly regarding the location of william and kate's royal london. we have the latest. >>> the tsa is on the defensive as millions of americans prepare to fly on the busy travel week of the year. >>> results of dna tests will prove whether or not a jaw bone fragment is that of missing teen natalee holloway. we are live in aruba with the latest. all of that and more coming up. back to you. >>> thank you. our time is 6:54. >> we have one more check of traffic and weather when 9news now returns. stay with us. [trumpet playing "reveille" throughout] let's support the small business owners getting our economy booming with the first ever small business saturday. on november 27th, shop small. it's going to b

vietnam vets. the cause is still under investigation. >>> more threats from north korea this morning after a bombardingh korea island. it wounded more and sparked fires on a military base. south korea fired 80 rounds back. this morning the white house and russia are condemning at tack. north korea is blaming the south accusing it of firing first and threatening to continue to launch if they violate the seaboarder. financial markets across asia down today following this news from korea. >>> we are now just one day away from the busiest travel day of the year, one of them any way. and despite the uproar, the tsa said very few air travelers are declining the full body scan that peers through their clothing. those who do get a patdown and that includes the groin area and the chest area. yesterday we told you about that bladder cancer survivor from michigan whose airport patdown caused a bag of his urine to soak his clothing. the head of the tsa called and apologied to that man. tom sawyer said that he accepted the apology. tomorrow is being called national opt out day. opponents of the virtual strip are --

vietnam. of the first real election challenge she faced since see -- since she won the seat in 1996. next up is dallas, north carolina. everett? caller: i am a republican. i voted for kay hagan, democrat senator. i voted for republican. i voted for 10 -- a republican. i prayed to god that i vote for the right people. i tell you, this nation is in trouble. host: the next call comes from gaithersburg, maryland, on the line for democrats. go ahead. caller: i was just calling, to make a point about voting for a democrat. actually i do not agree with everything but democrats advocate for -- that democrats advocate for the one thing i wanted to pay attention to, when senator mcconnell was asked what is the first thing they would do when they got into power, and he did not think about the debt that the country had were the economic problems, but the first thing that he promises to do, president obama, is the first one-term president. to me that is really wrong. instead of pledging to tackle the national debt, first he promises and pledges to make sure president obama is a one- turned president. -- one-term presiden

deter the north koreans in 1950, didn't deter the chinese at the end of that year, may have toward the chinese when they were about to attack. nuclear weapons didn't be sure anything in vietnam. nuclear weapons didn't detour syria and egypt in 1973. nuclear weapons didn't teacher the british in their war when they were attacked by argentina. nuclear weapons didn't deserve an uprising in afghanistan with the soviets thought they were in charge so nuclear weapons don't have a perfect record of deterrence. nevertheless as they have accomplished anything it's been deterrents except the two in japan and they were effective less because they killed so many people the japanese assumed if we had to in time we did have a third come fourth, fifth, sixth come so forth so that maybe that was an advertisement for the deterrence. then the question arises if this organization has a nuclear weapon how does it prove it? if it says americans get out of afghanistan by next new year's eve or we will blow of los angeles, how do we know they actually have a within? i think that is an overcoming problem. when fidel castro wasn't taken seriously enough by the u.s. government because they thought he

to be moving north into necessarily an isolationist or retrenchment mode but there are going to the constraints on with the united states can do. i don't know if you'd call it the vietnam doctrine or the nixon doctrine toward the tail end of the vietnam, nixon started looking around some regional players and allies to pick up more of the burden i think we are going to start to see partnerships with india for instance on how to bring order to the indian ocean and that part of the world trying to look a different regional anchors where we can find them and we are confident that these things we would like to do to try to pick up some of the slack. again, i don't see the isolationism but certainly a major sense among the american public that we've been spending a lot of money over all and we want to meet the since we are investing we might not be doing that at home. >> let's take one specific example from this week and then go to you guys for questions. the president is doing what people do after they've had a rough few weeks, wrote trips -- road trips. he's been to go to india, japan, and the india relationship is very interesting because we talk about china, india talks