ornato after that tell you that what mr. ornato said was untrue. >> neither mr. ornato or mr. engel told me ever that it was untrue. >> while neither source says they heard about trump trying to grab the steering wheel, they did say this. nobody said trump assaulted him, they said he tried to lunge over the seat. for what reason, they had no idea. we're also learning new details about the attempt to influence hutchinson's testimony, multiple sources telling cnn someone on behalf of mark meadows contacted hutchinson before testified and that is crucial because hutchinson was one of his top aides and we know now, the details presented in the hearing were directed towards hutchinson and what was the message? listen. >> this is a call received by one of our witnesses. quote, a person let me know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> hutchinson did do the right thing. she testified under oath, which everyone agrees takes courage. you

is tony ornato? he protected presidents for years. but under team trump he was given leave to be elevated to a new, unusual and powerful role, assistant to the president and deputy chief of staff for operations. there he oversaw thousands of employees and worked so closely with the president that "the washington post" identified him as one of several people tied to the secret service facing criticism for appearing to embrace trump's political agenda. some colleagues are also speaking up. a former communications director for trump, now a cnn commentator, says she warned ornato of potential problems before this chaotic clash with protesters at the white house in 2020 only to have ornato deny the conversation ever occurred. >> he's someone i know to have been dishonest in the past. >> reporter: ornato disputed talking about moving vice president mike pence from the capitol during the january 6 attack spurring another colleague to sweet tony ornato sure seems to deny conversations he's apparently had. th

is tony ornato?cted presidents for years. under team trump he was given leaf to elevated to new unusual and powerful role, assistant to the president and deputy chief of staff for operations. there he oversaw thousands of employees and worked so closely with the president that "the washington post" identified him as one of several people tied to the secret service facing criticism for appearing support trump's agenda. some colleagues are also speaking up, now cnn commentator says she warned ornato of potential problems before this chaotic clash with protesters at the white house in 2020 only to have ornato deny the conversation ever occurred. >> he's someone i don't -- i know to have been dishonest in the past. >> reporter: ornato disputed talking about moving vice president mike pence from the capitol during the january 6th attack. spurring another colleague to tweet, tony ornato sure seems to deny conversations he's apparently had. those of us who worked with tony know where his loyalties lie. for

for now, trump is defending ornato and his service. >> these are great people. they've devoted their lives. >> and blasting the hearing. >> and i think they were very embarrassed by it because it makes them sound terrible. >> reporter: but the january 6th committee, which has spoken with ornato does not seem as impressed from one member -- >> mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say ms. hutchinson did. >> reporter: and from another, there seems to be a major thread here, tony ornato likes to lie. >> and joining me now cnn legal analyst and former federal prosecutor elliot williams and historian ruth -- which now includes a new epilogue about january 6th. ruth was also interviewed by the january 6th committee. we should note, to offer insights about threats to democracy, and i want to begin with a reminder for our viewers of something ruth said last time she was on our program, that turned out to be almost clairvoyant. >> if you're having a coup and you've summoned everybody and you expect to be anointed as the head of

tony ornato likes to lie. let's go first to cnn's katelyn polantz live in our washington bureau with this news about the allegations of witness tampering that liz cheney first surfaced, we now have more information about who may have been on the receiving end of some of that. >> right, john. at the end of that bombshell hearing on tuesday committee vice chair liz cheney raised the spectre of witness intimidation. her probe had asked their witnesses if in inn had tried to influence their testimony and two witnesses said, yes, they received calls from someone they knew, one of these people on the receiving end was cassidy hutchinson and we are able to report that confirms a punchbowl news story. the committee has not said whom the calls came from but the examples were messages where unnamed callers told witnesses they should do the right thing, that people like trump knew that they would be loyal and that's the refrain in this. loyalty. cheney did promise to revisit this as a committee and we have really heard a

: so who is tony ornato? as a high ranking secret service agent, he protected presidents for years. but under team trump, he was given leave to be elevated to a new unusual and powerful role. assistant to the president and deputy chief of staff for operations. there he over saw thousands of employees and worked so closely with the president that the washington post identified him as one of several people tied to the secret service facing criticism for appearing to embrace trump's political agenda. some colleagues are also speaking up. a former communication director for trump now a cnn commentator said she warned tony ornato of potential problems before this clash with protesters at white house in 2020 only to have ornato deny the conversation ever occurred. >> he is someone that i know to have been dishonest in the past. >> reporter: he also disputed talking about moving vice president mike pence from the capitol during the january 6 attack. spurring another colleague to tweet, tony ornato denies conversatio

. >> she recalled a story or account told to her by tony ornato. she recounted something that he was telling her about how donald trump had basically tried to accost a secret service detail, tried to turn the steering wheel to go up to the capitol. and you know how tony ornato, who the secret service is pushing back on that account, trying to undermine cassidy hutchinson's testimony. can you tell us anything about what you know of tony ornato's interviews before the committee, how much of it was, you know, i don't recall, i don't recall? >> so i did sit in on one of the interviews that tony ornato did, but i can't comment on the substance of that, because that was all confidential and has not been released by the committee yet. i will say in general i thought that cassidy hutchinson, in her public testimony, came across as very credible and someone who doesn't have any incentive to lie. i think the committee has to go back to tony ornato and press him on her allegations and if he disputes them, they have to assess the credibility of the evidence ov

quote, trump wanted to make ornato director, but ornato said he had other plans and suggested to the president that he hire his good friend james marie, a 23 year old member of the service, trump height murray after an interview at lasting roughly ten minutes. the president soon after promoted his loyal detail leader ornado to a political role that was unprecedented for the nonpartisan secret service at the presidents urging, ornado took on the job of presidential political adviser as the deputy chief of staff in the trump white house. a ten minute interview for his new secret service director. that interview may well have included the questions, who did you vote for president? who were you going to vote for presidents? and do i have your complete and total loyalty at all times, or anything i might want to do? >> this was the third year of the trump presidency. remember, in the first weeks of his presidency, when donald trump brought james comey into the white house for a one-on-one dinner. donald trump was stunningly blatant about loyalty, in a discussion with comey, who he didn't e

to be a major thread here, tony ornato likes to lie. clearly some very serious questions and concerns about tony ornato's credibility here, jim. i think the question now is whether any of these trump officials who are privately disputing this testimony are going to come forward and do so publicly and under oath. >> one thing to tweet about it, another thing to testify under oath. melanie zanona, thank you so much. >>> joining me now to discuss the legal aspects of this, ambassador norm eisen, a senior fellow at brookings institution. good to have you on, sir. i wonder, as we look at what we have learned about communications between people in trump world and some of these witnesses, there is almost a mafia don quality to some of the communications as described by witnesses, you know, the president, the former president believes you will be loyal, et cetera. i wonder what is the legal standard to establish witness tampering? >> jim, witness tampering is forbidden under 18 usc 1512. what the government has to establish is what we seem to s

and the notion that tony ornato would have become such a die hard trump or, to the extent that whiles protecting trump, he made that known, then so much so that he was hired as the deputy chief of staff, is very unusual. and it is somewhat, it is highly suspicious. so i think, given his background, and then, ultimately what his job is, if he does testify, i do think that his, you have to question a little bit of what his motives were, and motives are. it is noteworthy that he hasn't come through. there is other reporting that indicates that the allegations, the testimony that hutchinson made about whether or not ornato told her about the limousine, the beast, going to the capitol, and that altercation, it's corroborated by at least one police officer. not a secret service agent, but a police officer was there. so, a lot still remains to be seen, as to what exactly what happened. i do want to make one point here, which, and they've been a lot of allegations about hearsay related to cassidy hutchinson's testimony, as if that somehow diminishes her testimony. the reason why hearsay is n

why hasn't ornato or anyone else in the secret service come forward, and agreed to testify under oathrefute her statements? >> two things here, steph. i think the further we get along here, the more the narrative and the notion that cassidy hutchinson is not reliable is being disproven, without cooperation from people like, tony ornato, and bobby engle, directly, the two people that cassidy had reference to, and you have witnessed the former president's behavior during that time period. you saw on that last hearing, actually, that cassidy and tony had a pretty seemingly friendly relationship. after that seven minute montage that outlined the tumultuous, quote unquote, unhinged meeting on december 18th, in the oval office, with president trump, sydney, flynn, michael powell, that's a blown, the kushner meeting. the committee threw up a text message from cassidy to tony ornato, the two of them going back and forth, with cassidy urging toni to get to the white house asap. so clearly, it goes to they have a relationship, they had some record, and i think it just makes the notion that cass

ornato or mr. angle told me ever that it was untrue. >> we're joined by congress impressional correspondent ryan noble. do we know who this witness is and what they're saying that allegedly backs up cassidy hutchinson's testimony? >> reporter: we don't have a lot of specifics but our reporters were able to learn that there was a metropolitan police department -- police officer, this was someone working for the washington, d.c. police force, that was part of the motorcade that did speak to the january 6th select committee and was able to corroborate, at least a little bit, about donald trump's position and his attitude on that day of january 6th. and specifically, that he was angry and had the desire to go to the capitol on that day. this wouldn't have been an officer that would have been specifically in the presidential suv that was -- which is in dispute right now, but someone that was part of that group of vehicles that would have taken the president from the ellipse back to the white house. just

let me come back to you on tony ornato.that congresswoman murphy, who is a member of the committee described it, is in his testimony he didn't give any clear account of that, no clear memories of that period. are they attempting to potentially bring him back to try to nail this down, or are they sticking comfortably with cassidy hutchinson's account of it? >> what the committee needs in terms of its investigation to draw the conclusions that they need to draw, and i think the point we keep raising over and over again, it's whether or not the president lunged at the steering wheel is not important to the specificity of their investigation. it lends to cassidy hutchinson's credibility, but the committee trusts her and they believe she's telling the truth. what the committee may be willing to do and it seems clear they've said they'll take any information from anyone that can provide it, is bring tony ornato and bobby engel back in and testify again. we know tony ornato has testified on two different occasions. they view his t

tony ornato likes to lie. meanwhile, the committee issuing a subpoena to pat cipollone, a key figure members believe has a lot to share. >> there were quite a few things that he could tell the committee that would not be subject to privilege, and i think it's important. >> reporter: cipollone already signaling that he may be willing to sit for a tribed deanscribed deposition. >> mark meadows and dan scavino have refused to come in and talk to congress. we have the power of subpoena similar to what a court has, and the justice department has failed to indict them for that. so all it does is send a message you just have to resist the select committee and you may be able to resist all penalties. >> reporter: wednesday night at the reagan library in california, cheney using the work of the committee to make a case that it's time for the party to move past trump. >> to the little girls and to the young women who are watching tonight, these days for most part, men are running the world, and it is really not going th

ornato has denied it through spokespeople not under oath. who are you going to credit. cassidy hutchinson made this up out of whole cloth, now we're learning from ryan's reporting that there is such a story circulating through the secret service. it's not exactly word for word as she said it, but it's darn close. it proves beyond any question in my mind, she's not making it up. it's one more chip in her favor on the credibility question. >> if any of these officials want to come in and testify under oath and tell their side of the story, they're perfectly, you know, fine to do so. i'm sure the committee would love to hear from them. we'll see if that happens. and elie, this week the committee issued a subpoena to former white house counsel pat cipollone one of the figures who is really sounding the alarm on january 6th. let's watch. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out onto west exec that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with e

ornato and mr. engle.er oath from both of them and from anybody else in the secret service who has information about any of these issues. >> do you expect that that testimony will be live testimony, under oath like her testimony, and for the world to see? how is that going to happen? >> look, we have been working with the secret service, we've interviewed a number of individuals in the secret service. we will continue to do so. and i think it is important that their testimony be under oath. and i understand very much the difficulty and the challenges that are presented when you are trying to protect somebody and the relationship that exists there. but that they have an obligation to testify truthfully to the committee, as does anybody else. >> reporter: hutchinson also testified about white house counsel pat cipollone's desperate effort to keep trump from going to the capitol. >> mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy, keep in touch with me, w

ornato likes to lie. has mr. ornato testified under oath in any of these interviews that you have had with him? >> it's important to note that it's -- if you lie to congress, it's a crime, whether or not you're under oath. >> was he under oath? >> it's a crime to lie to congress whether you come in for an interview or deposition. i'll say this. mr. ornato was a political appointee of president trump at the time. unlike all prior secret service agents protecting the president, he was appointed to be deputy assistant to the president. and so he was involved in clearing the square so the president could hold up a bible in front of the church. i mean, he was involved in all of that. he's part of trump world. >> i understand that. you've been hesitant to confirm or deny whether he was under oath. i understand what you're saying, it's still a crime to lie to congress. is it that you're not sure he was under oath or he was not under oath? >> i believe he was under oath. but certainly if he wants to come back and clarify

>> yes, because cassidy hutchinson's telling the story told to her by tony ornato. she was not in -- he was. the texture contemporaneous. if text were exchanged with the secret service agents protecting the vice president. remember, he refused to leave. he said i know you, but i don't know the driver. that means, the president who controlled the secret service might have been directing them through tony ornato or someone else. may have given directions to make sure that he was taken to a safe location, meaning somewhere where he could not return to the capital to complete his constitutional responsibility to oversee the counting of the ballots. there are so many things that these text messages could show, and i do not believe that they could be lost anne, even in the migration or in any other way. it could be deliberately erased, but even then, it would take someone extremely skilled to get rid of them from the cloud. so i believe that there is a way to get them, and that they should be requested and they should be forced to do that. but i also want to say, why isn'

so let's bring tony ornato in and let's see what he has to say. if they want to dispute what tony ornato said, then let's hear it from him. >> daniel goldman, very nice to see you this morning. thank you very much. >> you, too, john. >>> so some major news overnight, senator joe manchin dealing a crushing blow to the biden agenda shutting down talks over a new economic package. the west virginia democrat says he won't support the bill's climate or tax provisions seven months after initially upending biden's build back better plan back in september. sunlen serfaty is live on capitol hill with more on this. this is news certainly that biden did not want to receive as he's overseas. >> reporter: that's absolutely right. this is a huge blow for democrats and the biden white house and what many saw as the final stages of this these negotiations. and this certainly is an abrupt shift for senator joe manchin. sources telling cnn that manchin previously and throughout these negotiations he had been in support of these provisions, so, again, a huge blow fo

what else do we need to know about ornato? >> because, privately, people close to tony ornato let him know that he disagrees with cassidy hutchinson's account of this conversation that they had describing what happened in the suv. we now have sort of two people who are pitted against each other in terms of what they have said and who is more credible. and all i've heard all week from the select committee is that tony ornato's testimony was seen as less credible to them, less consistent, there were two different interviews, there were problems they felt with his testimony where they didn't feel that he was forthcoming or fully forthcoming. they felt that cassidy hutchison had more corroboration with what she had to say. so i expect to hear a lot more about this. we may even have some more witnesses come forward and testify publicly about these events. but the select committee having interviewed all the people involved at different points didn't feel that cassidy hutchinson was the most credible. and felt comfortable putting her

tony ornato met with the committee on two previous occasions.that day were murky. >> mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say ms. hutchinson did. >> reporter: meanwhile, the work of the committee was front and center last night in wyoming. >> the only time that the j 6th situation ever comes up is when people talk about how unfair this entire committee is. >> reporter: vice chair liz cheney's opponent promoting conspiracy theories about the election results. while cheney accused her of doing trump's bidding. >> she knows it wasn't stolen. i think that she can't say that it wasn't stolen because she's completely stolen because she's beholden to donald trump. >> the committee is working on scheduling depositions of those two secret service agents at the center of the controversy over what happened in the presidential suv on january 6th. tony ornato and bobby engel said they would be willing to come back in and testify about their recollection of the events on january 6th. this is also another key figure

ornato related to me. here is how you characterized mr. meadows general response when people raise concerns about what could happen on january six. >> at the time in the days leading up to the six, there was lots of public discourse about having to go back -- if i am hearing correctly, was the exact view -- mr. meadows did not share or had those concerns? >> he did not act on those concerns would be accurate. >> but other people raised it to him, like in this exchange that you mentioned. >> that is correct. >> messages in, we will show you now an exchange of text between you and deputy chief of staff ornato. these text messages were exchanged while you were at the ellipse. in one tax, you're right, but the crowd looks good from this vantage point, as long ayou get e shot,e wa effing furious. the text messages also stress that president trump kept messaging d.o.t. are, off-the-record movement. we will ask you about that in a minute. can you tell us, first of all, who it is and attacks, who was furious? >> in that text i was referring to was

ornato had recounted this story to me he had motioned toward his clavicles. >> reporter: cnn learningmp demanding to go to the capitol over secret service objections and lunging forward in the suv started circulating among agents in the months after january 6th. cnn has learned that agent tony ornato, who was also trump's deputy chief of staff, has met with the committee on two previous occasions. some committee members say his version of events on that day were murky. >> mr. ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say miss hutchinson did. >> reporter: meanwhile, the work of the committee was front and center last night in wyoming. >> the only time that the j 6 situation ever comes up is when people talk about how unfair this entire committee is. >> reporter: vice chair liz cheney's opponent harriett hageman promoting conspiracy theories about the election results while cheney accused hageman of doing trump's bidding. >> she knows it wasn't stolen. i think she can't say that it wasn't stolen because she's completely beholden to donald trump. and if

ornato did not have as clear of memories from this period of time as i would say ms.utchinson did. >> reporter: meanwhile, the work of the committee was front and center last night in wyoming. >> the only time that the j 6th situation ever comes up is when people talk about how unfair this entire committee is. >> reporter: vice chair liz cheney's opponent promoting conspiracy theories about the election results. while cheney accused hagueman of doing trump's bidding. >> she knows it wasn't stolen. i think she can't say that it wasn't stolen because she's completely beholden to donald trump. and if she says it wasn't stolen, he will not support her. >> reporter: meanwhile, the committee is still working on scheduling depositions of those two secret service agents at the center of that controversy over what happened in the presidential suv on january 6th. tony ornato and bobby engel said they would be willing to come back in and testify about their recollection of the events on january 6th. there's also another key figure the committee is trying to come to some sort of

so tony ornato was a central figure here. and his behaviors are being examined because he was loyal to donald trump, was a trump appointee and had been a regular agent for so many years. >> sure. that's one of the many reasons why these records are potentially of interest. now all the emails that agents exchanged, according to both the ig and the secret service, were preserved. so this is not about emails, it's only about text messages for the reason you stated and many others. you can understand why there's great interest in seeing whether there were any text messages and what they might say. >> pete williams, thanks, as always. joining us now, former u.s. attorney joyce vance, former senior fbi official and former u.s. attorney, chuck rosenberg, jen palmieri and eugene daniels. chuck, following up on pete, as part of your career as leader in law enforcement, if in fact the inspector general is correct and these messages existed and were erased, that's a big deal if they were erased after the request to save everything becau

tony ornato still works for the federal government. >> that is important.ny ornato had once been the head of the presidential protective detail for secret service, former president trump in a very unusual move pulled him in to be his deputy chief of staff for operations and of course after the end of his service in that capacity he has remained as the secret service now as the assistant director for training. secret service is housed within the department of homeland security and if dhs decides that they want individuals employed by the secret service to make themselves available to the committee under oath, those individuals would be instructed to do that. so i think this is different than someone who is still like a satellite to trump world, involved in the campaign or legal work and kind of making decisions like that on their own or in that private sector context. that's part of what makes his testimony interesting or important, another part is just how much he would have seen and heard and the fact that he's already communicated with the committee befor

what happened is less important to me, especially since cassidy hutchinson said, this is what tony ornato told me, not that i witnessed. you do get the sense that the committee wants to underscore the credibility of their witness, so, that is why they need to do this. i am frankly more interested in finding out about the relationship between the president and the oath keepers and what's really was he spying on this violence? what is that relationship? then whether not he lunged at the wheel on that day. i do think they want to shore up their witnesses. as a general rule, i would say they should be very careful about giving any of these witnesses immunity because they want to find anything out. that is a tendency to script criminal case down the road -- so, i would say, please don't be so obsessed with supporting your witness that you start handing out immunity and messing up a doj case down the road. >> so, you talk about shoring up witnesses, right? there is been talk, obviously, about whether or not they're gonna subpoena ginni thomas. i spoke with the lofgren, possibly for five weeks a

. >> let's talk about tony ornato, one of our favorite topics today. okay.o tony ornato, former white house deputy chief of staff, he is now in a position sort of like a leadership administrative position in the secret service, that's his background. very odd arrangement nonetheless, but that's where he is. cassidy hutchinson tells this anecdote, but it's important about him revealing something to her and there are questions now about his credibility as he's pushing back on this assertion that she made about this story that she heard in the presidential vehicle. >> yeah, he's pushing back on it and if he really wants to push back on it the best way to do that is to come testify under oath which he has every ability to do and which the secret service has said that they were willing to make these witnesses testify and publicly be available. he's already, as i understand t been interviewed twice. this was obviously prior to the information that cassidy revealed to the world on tuesday. but it's worth noting while the perhaps most off the wall part that have sto

and there's also this question about ornato, right? and tony ornato, who is a deputy chief of staff of operations, who has the [inaudible] secret service, who plays this huge role in much of cassidy hutchinson's testimony, including that story, that moment in the presidential motorcade -- you know, there was this through third parties anonymously saying, well, he didn't see it that way. and i thought this was interesting for committee member, stephanie murray. she said mr. ornato said did not have as much clear memories from this period is, i would say, massachusetts and said, if that's a fair assessment. but we are always happy to have things [inaudible] it was that statement -- that got me thinking about the spectrum of communication and cooperation you can get from witnesses when you are asking them about things 17 months ago, to money things they can possibly say, oh, i don't remember. >> right. and i think what you pointed out there and is notable, again, in the ben williamson statement too is, the principles themselves are the on

the deputy white house chief of staff for operations, anthony ornato. it was about trump's conduct, immediately after the ellipse rally, after he sent that armed crowd to march on the capitol. >> so, as the president got into the vehicle with bobby, he thought that they were going up to the capitol, and when bobby had relayed to him, we are not, you do not have the assets to do it, it is not secure, we are going back to the west wing. the president had very strong, very angry response to that says. tony described him as being irate. the president said something to the effect of, i am the effing president, take me to the capitol now. to which bobby responded, sir, we need to go back to the west wing. hawaii the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle, to grab at the steering wheel hawaii, mr. engel grabbed his arm, and said, sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel. we are going back to the west wing, we are not going to the capitol. mr. trump then used his free hand, to lunge towards bobby, and as he recounted the story to me

ornato nor mr. engel ever told me it was untrue. >> so there's new reporting on that tonight as well as the apparent attempt to influence ms. hutchinson's testimony. cnn's ryan nobles is up on capitol hill for was more. what more are you learning about that alleged incident in the presidential suv back on january 6th? >> reporter: well, of course if you know that this is in dispute because soon after hutchinson's testimony, officials from the secret service started coming out saying they were prepared to refute part of what she had to say and they also followed up by saying both tony and bobby, the two agents in question would will willing to testify under oath and dispute part of what she said, specifically, that the former president made an effort to grab ahold of the steering wheel and there was some sort of physical altercation with bobby engel. what we have learned talking to two individuals who worked in the secret service in the months after january 6th told noah that this was a story that wa

she told me the committee expects to talk to agents engel and ornato again. do you expect that that testimony will be live testimony, under oath like her testimony, and for the world to see? >> i think it is important that their testimony be under oath, and i understand very much the difficulty and the challenges that are presented when you are trying to protect somebody and the relationship that exists there. but that they have an obligation to testify truthfully to the committee. >> jon karl back with us now from washington. and jon, cassidy hutchinson testified that white house counsel pat cipollone was adamantly opposed to the idea of president trump going to the capitol on january 6th. cipollone, we know, has now been subpoenaed to testify. where does that stand now? >> reporter: i'm told, whit, that conversations are under way between cipollone's attorneys and the committee about an appearance. there is no agreement yet, but here's the interesting thing. both sides say that they believe that ultimately cipollone will testify before the committee. what k

ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned towards his clavicles. >> seth: my favorite parttory is imagining what would have happened if trump had actually succeeded and gotten his hands on the wheel i mean, can you imagine him driving a car? i mean, we've seen him drive a golf cart, but could he handle a, you know, a steering wheel that doesn't come with a tiny pencil holder? i mean, remember the one time he sat in the driver's seat of a truck and handled the wheel like a fifth-grader in a bumper car [ laughter ] let's say he really did get his hands on the wheel and drove the car. what would that look like? "alright, hands at 10:00 and 2:00, adjust your mirrors. check your blind spots, turn signal on, and we crashed into a tree guys, you got to tell the cops a cat ran out and i swerved to save the cat i can't get another ticket or they're going to take my license away and mel already told me she won't drive me anywhere. you got to get my back, guys." we've said this a lot over the entirety of trump's political career, but this hearing really was shocking i genuinely did no

ornato has still not testified, now he has a lawyer. when you do the balance in my mind it's not even a close contest. cassidy hutchinson wins that credibility contest. >> the committee also laid out holes in the trump timeline and the absence of some records. let's watch. >> there's no official record of president trump receiving or placing a call between 1:1:06 ad 6:54 p.m. as to what the president with as doing that afternoon, the presidential daily diary is also silent. it contains no information from the period between 1:21 p.m. and 4:03 p.m. the chief white house photographer wanted to take pictures because, in her words, very important for his archives and for history, but she was told, quote, no photographs. >> how the heck are there no records, no phone records during the crucial time, the daily diary is missing during the crucial time and not even any photographs? that to me is remarkably telling. let's remember here if you can dig into this, if you can prove that somebody took efforts to make sure there are no efforts to this

and members have come out and said tony ornato was not forthright. this is going to pressure him once again to come under oath and answer tough questions. >> thank you, alyssa farah griffin. now to our panel, the pressure on witnesses like cassidy hutchinson come with the context of committee member zoe lofgren saying this. >> as you know, in a prior hearing, we talked about the hundreds of millions of dollars that the former president raised. some of that money is being used to pay for lawyers, for witnesses. and it's not clear that that arrangement is one that is without coercion potential for some of those witnesses. >> let's discuss the legal and political implications with michelle cottle from the "new york times," doug heye, and former deputy assistant attorney general elliott williams. thank you all for being here. michelle, i'm going to start with you. we'll get to the legal stuff anymore. just what you just heard zoe lofgren say about money being used to help pay for the lawyers for those who are being contacted to testify in front of the ja

and you can be sure that there were pledges to donald trump, from tony ornato and james murray, that james murray would be loyal, the thing donald trump demands of anyone who was appointing, the think that he demanded from james comey and a conversation about james comey's possible continuation as fbi director, and when james comey did not blitz his loyalty, donald trump fired him. so, we know, what kind of pledges of loyalty donald trump exact those tuitions. did james murray delete the january six text messages on his own secret service phone? i have asked that question publicly here on television, and i have asked that question directly to the secret service. no answer. in his written statement today, james murray took the press release equivalent of taking the fifth amendment. he refused to say one word about the secret service text messages, including his own text messages on january 6th. he used the right to remain silent that criminal defendants half. the dam has begun to break in a way that means we are going to learn much more about the secret service text messages, that the

just to be clear, tony ornato key in cassidy hutchinson's testimony because ornato is who she says toldim about events that happened in the president's vehicle that day. >> something that they've later tried to dispute but of course she's testified and that's why people have raised questions. if she's testifying and you're disputing it, that -- disputing that should be in testimony as well. >>> all right. other news this morning, a new day of brutal heat across the country and around the world, this global heat wave intensifies. >>> and an indiana doctor under fire for performing an abortion on a 10-year-old rape victim is fighting back, moving to sue the state's attorney general for defamation. >>> school officials in uvalde, texas, are taking steps to remove potentially the district's embattled police chief. more on that next. with technology that can scale across all your clouds... it's easier to do more innovative things. [whistling] only two things are e forever: love and liberty mutual customizing your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. if anyone objects to this mar

i think it is true that there are questions for tony ornato. of the things the committee's been very artful in doing is applying strategic pressure to get people to come into talk about key people who were in the white house. and provide full enough accounts that it forces their hand to come in and speak themselves. i don't know that ornado has on the record denied any of the accounts. in the way that you might expect him if he recessive before the committee. but the committee said they're getting new information every day. more people are coming forward to tell their story. one of the things they will try to do is cobble together every moment that tony ornato was in trump's orbit, anything that he said, trying to recreate his timeline, and they would want to take that to him and see what he has to say. >> all. right we'll be watching. another important piece of this entire week though is attorney general merrick garland, who definitely call my attention when he commented on the january 6th select investigation. >> no person is above the law in

hutchinson testified and one of the instances that she spoke about, that tony ornato told her that onump was so irate about not being able to go to capitol hill whom he knew could be violent, were armed that he grabbed at the presidential suv and lunged at a secret service agent there. that is what hutchinson said she was told. she said this under oath. when she was testifying this past week she learned this story in front of the agent who was lunged at and he seemed a little discombobulated at the time. after her testimony there was a bit of this that was disputed. not the part about donald trump wanting to go to capitol hill and being angry that he couldn't, but there was a secret service official who denied that donald trump had lunged in the suv and tony ornato had told her this story. there is an effort to discredit her, including by donald trump, but now we have two secret service agents saying this was a story amongst the agents. so here we have this corroboration. this story was out there and cassidy hutchinson is going on capitol hill explaining that under oath to the house s

but he had actually done was asked tony ornato to be his director of secret service. and ivanka trump and jared kushner also had a soft spot for him. he they felt he was very, shall we say hopeful. he was very willing to accede to their demands. donald trump wanted toni to be his director. tony said, no, no, no, i will do another job for you. please have my buddy, jim murray, be the director. >> many people who work in the secret service have said to me donald trump figured out how do i get what i want from the secret service time and time again? how do i get campaigns during covid spikes that are lethal? how do i get the clearing of the peaceful demonstrators, for a photo op, after black lives matter protests outside the white house? how do i get all this done that is not so and any secret service security book? i install the people who say yes to me all the time, and tony ornato it was, indeed, one of the president's greatest yes men. now he is an illustration of how politicized the secret service came during trump administration, something phil and i found in agenc

that's where tony ornato will have to come in and tell us more on his position on that. >> will he?there's information i can't say yet. we would say cassidy hutchinson has testified under oath. we find her credible. anybody that wants to cast disparages on that should also come and testify under oath. not through anonymous sources, quote, unquote, and not potentially being an anonymous source. >> congressman, since cassidy hutchinson's testimony, have new witnesses come forward to want to speak up? >> yes. again, i don't want to get into who or any of those details, but -- and it's not even just cassidy. by the way, she's been inspiring for a lot of people. this happens every day. every day we get new people that come forward and say, hey, i didn't think maybe this piece of a story i knew was important, but now that you guys are -- i do see this plays in here. but, yeah, i mean, look, she is going to go down in history as -- i mean, people can forget the names of every one of us on the committee. they will not forget her name. she doesn't want that. she doesn't want to be out in the

ornato has denied telling how to us in that story and said the altercation never happened. the secret service agent, that is bobby engle, also willing to dispute that account under oath. and you also have former white house lawyer eric herschmann who also said that he wrote a hand written note as the violence and voted at the capitol as she testified. do these disputes adele challenge her credibility, her testimony? >> having sat there for her entire testimony sitting right behind the police officers, three capitol police officers, whom we've gotten to know as the face of this violent insurrection, they represent many other heroes. i have to tell you, it was so obvious in the room of her credibility that others would now dispute it does not shake me in any way whatsoever. which takes me is wet actually took place. it's less about their drama of the president lunging forward, which sounds consistent with his hot temper and desperate plea to get to the capital with the armed insurrectionists. what was he going to do when he got there? but what is really telling, and what is s

but i want to ask you about tony ornato because prior to taking that job, he had worked in the secret service for years, then became close to donald trump, then became deputy chief of staff in the white house under donald trump and now he's back with the secret service. do you think it's appropriate for somebody like that to go back and forth, you know, from the secret service position to a political position, back to the secret service, when the secret service is supposed to be apolitical? >> yeah, this is a big question. i know that a lot of agents, you know, are talking about that. it's very hard to maintain your independence when you were a political appointee. i think this is a very unique situation that tony has put the secret service in. they have to defend somebody while they were in a political role, not under the operational control of the secret service. it's very difficult. i want to just take that as an outlier. that is not the norm. so for the viewers, i mean, this is a very individual issue. but i think that, you know, we're seeing the integrity of the secret service be

in one of the instances that she spoke about that a white house deputy chief of staff named tony ornatoold her that on january 6th, donald trump was so irate about not being able to go to capitol hill with his supporters whom he knew could be violent, were armed, that he grabbed at the steering wheel inside the presidential suv and lunged at a secret service agent there. so that is what hutchinson says she was told. she said this under oath. when she was testifying this past week, she also said that she learned this story in front of the agent who was lunged at and that he didn't correct it, he even was a little bit discombobulated at the time because of this episode with trump. after her testimony, there was a bit of this that was disputed. not the part about donald trump wanting to go to capitol hill and being angry that he couldn't. but there was a secret service official who denied that trump had lunged in the suv and that tony ornato had told cassidy hutchinson this story, and there has been an effort to discredit her, including by donald trump himself, following her testimony. but

ornato had recounted this story to me, he had motioned toward his clavicles. >> reporter: the secret service has not given a public account of what happened. one official telling cnn that the agents dispute hutchinson's account. but hutchinson's lawyers say she stands by her testimony. >> if people want to come forward and have different recollections, we would encourage them to come forward and give testimony under oath. that's very different than puppeting putting out anonymous statements. >> the committee has just announced plans for an eighth and possibly final hearing. it will happen thursday at prime time, 8:00 p.m., and it will focus in what was happening in th those 187 minutes when trump was out of public view and not stepping in as rioters attacked the capitol. jessica schneider, cnn, washington. >>> ukraine now says up to 70% of russian missile strikes go after civilian targets, including the city of mykolaiv where rescue workers are still trying to find people after ten missiles hit on friday. officials say four people were injured. on the same day russian missiles also p