hope hicks and tony ornato.e're learning from a cnn report that donald trump up ethics lawyer stephen passantino, he advise her that she did not recall details that she did indeed remember. according to cnn, trump's save america political action committee paid for him to represent hutchinson which is something that should deserve investigation. in other words, the questions around january 6 certainly have not been answered and likely to have more tomorrow. in less than 24 hours, the committee will make the mother lode of its existence present. for months, the doj has asked the committee for many of these items and for months, the committee has been reluctant to acquiesce to that request until now. hours ago, punchbowl reported that jack smith sent the committee a letter earlier this month requesting all of the materials that the committee has gathered for the past year and a half. as of last week, the committee started to send over the goods, reams of transcripts and documents. nbc news confirms that the committ

>> ornato, i don't recall.er, in my position i would have made sure he was tracking the demos which received a daily brief of presidential briefing. despite having key intelligence in hand, it being literally his job to inform the white house about these threats, mr. ornado told the committee doesn't recall if he did. it's important pay tension to the language here, because it is not the first time that the committee has been stonewalled with those exact words. in fact, another big revelation from the committee yesterday is that it has specific evidence that at least one witness was asked by pro trump allies to not recall the facts during an interview. that witnesses lawyer would not tell her who was paying his fees. quote, the lawyer advised witness that the witness could, instance or can stances, telling me that she did not recall facts. when she did, actually, call them. we don't know for pro trump group told mr. or not to do the same thing, but one does wonder. especially because ornado seems to have had a

and the committee saying it was skeptical of ornato's account. and soon we'll find out what ornato and all actually said under oath, if anything. sara murray is with me, let's bring in senior justice correspondent evan perez on this. and, evan, is there a role for the justice department when we have contradictory testimony under oath on what happened inside the presidential suv? >> there absolutely is. especially, again, what cassidy hutchinson has provided testimony to is essentially something she was being told to lie to the committee. that is a lie. that is something that the justice department would be interested in investigating. we know from the committee that they have, even in the middle of all of this, they turned over information to prosecutors. and so, we know that they have at least interviewed cassidy hutchinson. so, they have a lot of what exactly went on behind the scenes including what her accounts are with her attorney. they already know a lot of it. >> so, just to stay on this for one second, according to her testimony, passanti

i want to say a quick thing about tony ornato. tony ornato used to work for the secret service. he got a cushy job at the white house and a cushy job back at the secret service. this is unprecedented and he became a true believer. frankly, his inability to be truthful and forthcoming in this entire ordeal is a poor reflection of what the secret service's mission and motto is, and that is an area that needs to be delved into further, maybe an inspector general investigation into what happened with the secret service, because it really shines a terrible light on what should be an honorable organization. tony ornato is a liar. >> then they deleted their phones. i'm sorry, but there's too many things. andrew and tara, thank you both very much. >> up next on "the reidout," will the real george santos please stand up. an incoming house republican is under scrutiny under what appears to be several fabricated aspects of his biography and resume. "the reidout" continues after this. psoriasis really messes with you. try. hope. fail. no one should suffer like that. i started cosentyx®. fiv

we will see a transcript of tony ornato's testimony.here's a lot of don't recall there. and that was a problem for a lot of other witnesses. the committee also pointed out that former president daughter, ivanka trump, and his press spokesman kayleigh mcenany were less than forthcoming and their testimony. we're going to see that as well. >> that's again, just for our viewers at home, that's code for we think that they're lying. we think the -- they're not telling us things that we think that they know. >> the code is -- think of it a different way, if we had been calling it a roadmap the whole times, these are the signs, these are the signpost that say hey, maybe you should look here, hey, maybe it's a place to pump the brakes, hey, maybe this is the place to. pause >> no question about it. we've talked over the last two years about the big lie, which is donald trump continuing to push that the election had been stolen, which was not true. these are the little lies. these are the sins of omission. but there -- i am told by sources that

they spoke with tony ornato. and you wrote a book not just on donald trump but the secret service, carol and tell us about ornato. >> so the committee has been communicating through various sources to the "washington post" and probably to other media their concern about the failure to recollect by tony ornato. remember, he was the original secret service detail leader for donald trump, who after being detail leader for the president, was detailed to become a political operative in the white house, a deputy white house chief of staff, whose mission is not security for the president, but it's helping the president get re-elected. a real no-no in the secret service. and yet under trump's white house, that's what happened. ornato said in testimony, we're told, in any recent interviews, that there are things that he cannot recollect that other witnesses have testified to. he tends to, in that testimony, i'm told, undermine the account relayed, you know, the bombshell testimony by cassidy hutchison. but one of the issu

tony ornato when he talked to the committee didn't recall all kinds of things. he didn't recall trump being angry. he didn't recall the motorcade. he didn't remember things that way. when it came to january 6th, the committee said, do you remember people trying to get donald trump to say something, to make a public statement. and tony ornato compares it to the fall of war. he says, i'll be honest with you. it was chaotic. it was late information or it wasn't accurate or it was the fog of war and it was misrepresented. it was a very, very chaotic day. so, i don't recall those specific details. ornato's attorneys previously told us they felt like he was cooperative with the committee, he was honest with the committee. but the committee went out of their way in their final report to question ornato's testimony multiple times. >> sara murray staying busy this friday night. hopefully you get a break over the weekend with the transcripts. >>> coming up, we remember the four students killed in idaho university and head back to idaho for the latest on the suspect arrest

tony ornato when he talked to the committee didn't recall all kinds of things.all trump being angry. he didn't recall the motorcade. he didn't remember things that way. when it came to january 6th, the committee said, do you remember people trying to get donald trump to say something, to make a public statement. and tony ornato compares it to the fall of war. he says, i'll be honest with you. it was chaotic. it was late informatio

it's very hard to parse exactl what tony ornato is saying there.ther witness that tony ornato tel them about trump's ornat behavior - ornato said he could not recal the part of that conversatio and had no knowledge of th presidents anger these instances that the committee to issue this pretty damning assessment the committee found multiple parts of tornadoes testimony questionable and when you add to that the details from cassidy hutchinson's testimony about mark meadows meeting up with tony ornato and a white hous holiday event, the head of trump secret service detail on january 6th, bobby engle, abou him attending a private afte party in the chief of staff' office, which he get there is picture of an agency tha appeared really cozy with th former administration. even neglecting would seem t be one of its most basic duties joining us now to discuss this is peter strzok, former fb counter intelligence agent mister struck, thank you for being here tonight my - army over reading the intimacy here the going to the after parties the being invited to th

even know ornato cooperated with the committee, the committee said multiple times they did not view ornatolast was jared kushner that revealed that donald trump in on his mind after the 2020 trademarks, specifically, he wanted to trademark rigged election, jared kushner said out to make that happen for his brother-in-law. the committee has a few more days to release the transcripts, the final piece of work, before it expires january 3rd. back to you. >> sara, thank you. so from transcripts to tax returns. we're talking about six years' worth of returns from donald trump's time in office. here to help us sort through some of the findings, former u.s. attorney michael moore, a partner with moore hall in atlanta. and retired tax attorney peter faber, he advised wealth in and high-profile clients over his 50 years as a tax attorney. welcome, both, gentlemen. peter, i'll start with you, the trump return showed that he had large losses before and throughout his presidency that he carried through to practical eliminate his tax burden. that doesn't seem to be out of the ordinary, right, as long as

ornato says he doesn't recall, which is a difference. we want to see what those transcripts really say. also, there's reporting that someone tried to influence hutchinson's testimony. "the new york times" and cnn reporting that person is a former trump white house ethics lawyer. put that together for us and the importance of him and what difficulty he could be and if that was some alleged witness tampering. >> sure. both these things are really big. they are an example of what we will see in the report. we have the executive summary, a pretty big executive summary. now we're going to see the document for history. things we didn't see that happened behind the scenes are very good examples. we will have ornato. the committee says he was not credible. he didn't recall. there are other people, not just hutchinson, who make clear that trump is irate, absolutely insistent about going up to the rally and make it clear whether or not he lunges for the wheel or not. wow, is he in trouble. this is a lawyer who is paid for by the trump team before

bobby engel and tony ornato. it was ornato who she said told her that story.committee reveal any information on that? that's going to be an important thing to look for. then the specific evidence they believe they've collected that they're going to hand over to the department of justice. we've talked a lot about how these recommend days really carry no legal weight. this is just member of congress asking the department of justice to look into it. what kind of evidence do they have to support that. that's what prosecutors are going to be most interested in. >> we're seeing capitol hill police officers attending the hearing, this meeting, we're not supposed to be calling this a hearing. as we've seen throughout this process. in attendance to see how the committee lays it out. ryan, how much hand wringing did the committee have in whether to ultimately recommend charges against donald trump? what sort of deliberations were there behind the scenes? >> we know there was a lot of talk about this. it would set a precedent for future committees in congress down the ro

>> the other interesting was tony ornato. we've been waiting for this interview for a long time.was a top aide to donald trump. and cassidy hutchinson talked about how irritated trump was when he couldn't go to the capitol and we reported that tony ornato did not confirm her account, the committee did not find him to be a credible witness but they asked him if he saw anyone try to convince donald trump to make a statement publicly and hear is what you told the committee. i'll be honest with you, it is a chaotic time and the information wasn't accurate or it was the fog of war and it was misrepresented and it was a very chaotic day so i don't recall those specific details. there was a lot of him not being able to recall and again the committee didn't think he was a very credible witness even though ornato's lawyer said he testified truthfully. we're digging through the latest rounds. i think these are the biggest names we'll see today but our team is reading to see if there are any other big headlines tonight, wolf. >> let our viewers know. thank you. excellent reporting as usual.

ornato, i don't recall.from cassidy hutchinson. ornato said he could not recall that conversation and had no knowledge of the president's anger. these incidents led the committee to issue this pretty damning assessment. they found multiple parts of ornato's testimony questionable and when you add to that the details from cassidy hutchinson. the head of trump's secret service detail, bought him and what you get there is a picture of an agency that appeared very cozy with the former administration even while neglecting one of its most basic jobs. thank you for being here tonight? are we reading into the intimacy, being invited into the inner sanctum of the white house paired with the recalcitrant and is that a fair assessment? >> i don't think we're over reading it. when you have a senior law enforcement official like anthony ornato leaves the agency to become a political appointee in the house. and then for him to return to the secret service after serving in that position, it raises appropriate questions abo

liz cheney to tony ornato, the secret service agent, says to ornato, the fbi, doj, u.s. homeland security all provided detail about the potential for violence and you were unaware of it. you forwarded an article to mr. engel that talks specifically about the potential for violence. says, ma'am, i received hundreds of emails. i don't recall having that knowledge. cheney, so you didn't read the intelligence and you didn't read the article that you forwarded? that's your testimony? ornato, i don't know if i did, ma'am. i'm sorry, i just don't recall. stephen miller forgot a whole lot of things. so did donald trump jr. i wonder, as doj digs into potential criminality around january 6th, if you think people's memories will come back, phil. >> it could. look, this was a historic day in this country. and i think if you were in a position of leadership, as tony ornato was on that day, these are the types of things that would probably stick with you. but who knows what his memory is. we can't speak for him or for ginni thomas. it is important to keep in mind that this is not a cr

she told the committee that ornato have told her what happened. kushner's transcripts revealed a lot of, i don't recall answers to questions, including whether to stop the counting of votes after november 5th. rudy giuliani's transcripts shows he considered the committees interview, quote, illegal, and said he believes trump won the 2020 election. and he told the committee that he, quote, put together quickly, a team of lawyers, yeah, lawyers, when trump asked him to take over the campaign in the days after the 2020 election. along with learning more about the one up to the capitol riot, were also finding out about the former president's tax returns, how much taxes he paid or did not wait. the house ways and means committee committee released six years of trump's tax returns. our reporter has more on that. >> reporter: thousands of pages of trump's tax returns show the former president paid relatively little in federal taxes, from 2015 through the end of his term, including a zero dollar federal tax bill in 2020 as his businesses struggled. the re

and the interesting part is the interview with tony ornato. and also cassidy hutchinson's explosive allegations. what did he say about the events of january 6. >> he was asked about a whole host of things by committee in part because cassidy hutchinson had a provided this explosive testimony and he did not corroborate the incidents that she talked about that happened allegedly trump getting irate and lunging at people in the motorcade and he didn't corroborate but he was asked about what happened on january 6 about efforts people were to make a public statement and tony ornato was like, it was so crazy, i can't really remember very much. he said it was a very chaotic time in trying to get the information and it was usually late information or wasn't accurate or it was the fog of war and it was misrepresented and it was a very -- a very chaotic day so i don't recall those specific details. we should also note that while ornato's attorney said that he was cooperative with the committee, the committee wrote in the report that they did not believe

liz cheney, to tory ornato, the one-time secret service agent, says to ornato, the fbi, doj, u.s.t service, department of homeland security prevented intel and you are you are not aware of it? and you forwarded a memo about the potential for violence i believe you do that on january 4th? total in argos history liz cheney, ma'am, i received hundreds of emails. trying to do my best. it's been almost two years now. i don't recall having that knowledge. cheney, so you didn't read the intelligence and you didn't read the article that you forwarded? that's your testimony? ornato, i don't know if i did, ma'am. i'm sorry, i just don't recall. stephen miller got a lot of things, so don trump jr.. i wonder, as doj digs into potential criminality around january 6th do, you think peoples memories will come back, phil? >> it could. look, this was a historic day in this country and i think if you are in a position of leadership as tony ornato was on the day, these are the types of things they will probably stick with you, but who knows what his memory is? we can't speak for him or virginia thom

tony ornato and others? the word peacefully.a sudden, tony ornato and others are making this point over and over again. well, president trump said he would peacefully do this. >> they keep inserting the word. >> peacefully. my sources say, it looks like very obvious coaching. you would know this better than anyone. >> that's what they said about camee mceneny as well. those are tells. they're giveaways that this person is not only being forthcoming but they've been coached or instructed or pushed in a certain direction. answer this way. which would be consistent with what we've heard about the conflicted representation. >> thanks, everyone. you can go home now. up next, we remember our friend and colleague, drew griffin. ugh, this rental car is so boring to drive. let's be honest. the rent-a-car industry is the definition of boring. and the reason can be found in the name itself. rent - a - car? you don't want a friend. you want the friend. you don't want a job. you want the job. the is always over a. that's why we don't offer a

what they say about tony ornato.e executive summary, and is he, as andrew said just now, if you were in maine justice, is tony ornato at the top of your list of someone you might want to flip. who's -- >> tony ornato is a curious figure in this whole story. he's a career secret service agent, and suddenly he goes over to the white house in a political position. i can't tell you how unheard of that is. he doesn't have to resign from the secret service. he takes a leave of absence, and goes, and that's something that really doesn't happen for a lot of obvious reasons. we're seeing them all play out here. so if, in fact, as the committee suggests he has had more than a tragic failure of memory and actually resorted to covering up the truth, he is definitely someone that you would want to have a conversation with as a prosecutor. because of his access to the former president, what you're really looking for in your cooperators are people who had conversations with trump, who can get you straight into what was going on ins

tony ornato, the person who told the story says he doesn't recall when it comes to that story, so ite you wonder if the conflict is simply one is following the coaching and one is not. >> right. and you've worked with countless witnesses as a former u.s. attorney, what does the pressure that cassidy hutchinson faced really do to a person? >> sure. i've certainly seen people who have had to be, you know, in situations where they're testifying against someone who was a friend, a former colleague, an ally, a codefendant, and it is incredibly stressful. you know, once they make that decision. but, you know, you tell them that your job is to answer the truth, to tell the truth. i know it might be hurtful, painful, but it's not that you're trying to hurt somebody, you are fulfilling your obligation to tell the truth, and so the idea that, you know, she was being persuaded both with enticements of jobs but also with threats, things like, you know, donald trump reads all of those transcripts and remember whose team you're on and be loyal, you know, knowing how trump operates and the way he v

ornato told us he did not recall doing so. and his testimony questionable. common sense issue, did tony ornato, a liar, is that a sense that he lied to you and he is one of the people that may be a fruitful target of the doj going forward? >> ultimately, that's up to the department of justice. but i think it's fair to say not every witness was as truthful as they should have been, and could have been. and he definitely falls into that category. we have multiple individuals, as that information will detail, who tell different pieces of that story, that he has -- that he told us he had no recollection of. so, in the grand process of this had we feel that he was less truthful than many other witnesses. >> yeah. less truthful. yeah, coming from a mild and very kind man like yourself, that's basically the equivalent of saying liar, liar, pants on fire. and the committee with andrew weissmann that we focused on which is a suggestion, kind of an illusion for the executive summary, when you folks wrote about why mark meadows and dan scavino had maybe not been prosec

questions about the credibility of witnesses like deputy chief of staff, former secret service tony ornato. i'm joined by ali vitali, justice correspondent ken dilanian, politico bureau chief jonathan lemire, senior fbi official chuck roseberg, former general counsel and senior member of the mueller probe andrew wiesman, and former supervisor rob demico. what a wealth of talent. ali vitali, let's start with setting the scene for us. what is the mood like on capitol hill anticipating this report with all the other events that they are working on. the any bus, the tax returns, pretty shocking. what slt talk about that report that the committee you have been covering constantly for so many months? >> nobody is bored here on capitol hill. no surprise given the list of things you just laud out between trump's taxes and the joint meeting tonight with volodymyr zelenskyy coming here to the united states to address congress. but this january 6th committee report we have known it's coming. we're going to see hundreds and hundreds of pages of material. the ought chapters of the written report, yes,

deputy chief of staff tony ornato testified that she did not recall an alleged heated exchange betweenand circuit service agent robert engel, and the motorcade on gender sex. former white house communications director alyssa -- testified that she heard trump's plan to replace for mercy rose cash photo whose for -- pledged to resign if that happened. griffiths said allegedly for 14 minutes cash was actually the cia director. as the company wraps of its worked, members of -- sars any prosecution citizens are not in the hands of the doj. >> i will be satisfied if the department of justice approaches this with courage and -- they've got to reach a decision, not me. we spent so much time on this, i thought we made the case we've provided a huge amount of evidence and there's more to come. i think it's pretty clear what happened here but they need to make their decision. joining me now, charles comment, former brooklyn prosecutor and a miss and we didn't list, -- both of whom i appreciate, lockhart renew to both. hugo, you study the 16 committee released testimony and this testimony came fro

security failures, because when i was reading the executive summary yesterday, talking about tony ornatoously at center of what we heard from cassie hutchinson when she testified and it talked about how he came in and said he couldn't recall things like what she said about the secret service's incident. he talked about getting the intelligence that, of course, we now know there were warnings about it, but not being sure what happened once it was passed on to mark meadows. >> not sure, after he heard it, whether or not he told anybody, you know, tony ornato is not just your deputy chief of staff. he's a former special agent of the secret service, the former head of the presidential detail. that's not the kind of training you get to not remember things. >> final record. what do you think happens? everyone wants to know. >> i think donald trump will be indicted. indicted in georgia and i think indicted by the feds. i think they've got the evidence. we don't know exactly what a lot of these cooperating witnesses are saying. and i think that you've got someone like mark meadows who's probably

i remember saying to stefan, tony ornato and i were close to the white house.ld me this incident happened, stefan said, no no, no, no, no, he sat back in his chair and he's like no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, we don't want to go there. we don't want to talk about that, end quote. her lawyer continued, it's a headline. a cool story for the committee. it will be on the news for a couple days. i don't want you to have to tell that story just because he told you doesn't mean that you need to share that with them. the transcript of hutchinson's interview revealing how much intense pressure passantino put on his client to avoid revealing damaging details about donald trump. hutchinson said, quote, i want to make this clear to you, stefan never told me to lie. he specifically told me i don't want you to perjure yourself, what i don't recall isn't perjury. you don't know what you can and can't recall. her story reads like something out of the godfather with passantino pushing her not to make the boss look bad. she explains how she felt during her first interviews. it

who worked for meadows at the time that ornato was one of the people who also downplayed trump's wisho be able to look at these transcripts and compare them. we're not exactly sure when each transcript will become available to us, but we'll be looking for that, and the republicans has one coming out about security failures around the capitol on january 6th. victor? >> you'll be looking through that. katelyn polantz, thank you very much. >>> the american public is expected to have a clear picture of former president trump's tax liabilities. the house ways and means committee voted to release six years of his federal tax returns. its report revealed that trump did not pay any federal taxes during his last year in office. even more notable, the committee said the irs failed to properly audit the former president's tax while he was in office. trump was audited one year between 2015 and 2020, and they claim it failed to work as intended. the member of the ways and means committee, it is good to have you back. i've read kind of a headline from this summary report. what happens now? what's n

that shocking session over the summer when she talked about what she was told by people like tony ornato and others about what had happened with former president trump in that vehicle and one of the transcripts we're likely to see is tony ornato's and it will be very interesting especially for those of us who are following along for so long on this. >> and also how in witnesses may have been influenced and there were donald trump affiliated lawyers were telling witnesses to say i don't recall, or maybe dangling advantageous work or careers after the fact, and then pulling them back. all of this stuff that could have influenced what somebody might have said. >> yes, i think it was a great point. and the recording, we have about 150 pages of the report. >> that's a lot. >> i think ali makes a great point, one of those days we're waiting on tax returns and the report that could come at any moment or more moments, it is a government schedule and they are in charge of the schedule, or the moments at the white house. but what you're quoting from is from some of the new material we did get this

ornato apparently told the committee he didn't recall saying any of this to cassidy hutchison and the find his account credible. very interested to read his transcript and the transcript of any other witnesses speaking to that particular anecdote, just to try to get the full picture of what potentially the justice department could prove about what happened there. >> all right. so curious what you will look for and also just curious, is it possible some high-level members of the trump administration are already working with the doj? we know that these referrals are not legally binding and doj can completely ignore them, or look at it as part of a path to follow. they may be on their own. and i just wonder if there are any indications to you by whose name, for not complying to subpoenas and whose not -- that might be indication the doj is already on a trail? >> yeah. i'd say that's a great question. there is a very tantalizing comment in the executive summary. it's hard to call it that, because it's 160 pages, but in that executive summary there's a reference to why the department of ju

wanted to go to the capitol and reaching for the steering wheel of the secret service car and tony ornato was the one who rye laid that to her and he was asked about it and the select committee, accordingly, said that he, i guess he said i don't recall, you can talk to me a little bit more about his testimony and whether it defied cassidy hutchison's or just didn't line up? >> sometimes you get a gut feeling, like this just doesn't seem right, for someone in the position and that level of authority, and responsibility, within the white house, to be advising the president. the number of things that he didn't recall on that day was staggering. there were junior staff with, you know, much less level of responsibility who remember with great clarity, many details throughout the day, and you know, i think that we have a level of concern within the committee that his "i do not recall," his lack of recollection, details, concerning the events that day, it could fall in this category of testimony that is not fully forthcoming or perhaps influenced by some outside factors and we wanted to make sur

ornato, the idea that the head of the president's detail wouldn't know about any of the intelligencethe capitol might be the subject of an attack on january 6th when there were multiple streams of intelligence coming in seems pretty far-fetched. he was either not being honest with the committee or he was being incredibly negligent in the performance of his job. >> what have we learned from the probe? "the new york times" today described this as one of the most significant congressional probes in the modern era, and i think that's partly because of the evidence. lining that up with these four recommended charges today i would note that three of them, the way the draft report is written, the excerpts you've released suggest three of them are chargeable even had there been no violent insurrection and i'm curious if you could walk us through with other detail now that we've laid out the overview, when did you and your investigation begin to realize that as horrific and terrible a the insurrection crime was, the violent attack on the capitol you were finding according to this new material

but tony ornato is a pivotal figure in some ways here and represents the damage that the former president did to the country. for those people not familiar with him, he was a former longtime secret service agent assigned to the executive detail, the protection of the president, takes a leave of absence from the secret service, becomes a political guy, an adviser to the president, and according to the report, quote, multiple parts of his testimony are questionable, unquote. we're not done with him as a country, and i suspect the committee is not done with him either. what are your thoughts on the level of corruption that the president, former president brought to the table each and every day? >> well, obviously off the charts, mike. i know you and i are in agreement about this. we're still counting the cost of the institutional damage that donald trump caused over the course of four years. but i'd say, you know, among the most striking and something i think we'll get a clearer picture of when we see this report tomorrow, just the degree to which the secret service, law enforcement itself w

so, you will see what tony ornato had to say, you will see what cassidy hutchinson had to say.e what a great many other witnesses had to say in much greater detail in -- and from witnesses that we were not able to present merely because of a lack of time. and some of that testimony, i, think is going to be very new to the public and it will also shed light on why we have questions about the credibility of witnesses and so i think there is going to be more material to keep folks like yourself and the interested public on the edge of their seat. >> a lot of people think that under oath i do not recall is a safe answer. and it does not steer you into perjury territory. there is reporting that cassidy hutchinson was advised by a lawyer being paid by donald trump to say, i do not recall, in response to questions where she actually did recall and she ended up not doing that. she ended up switching lawyers and hope fully cooperating with the committee. but we what would you say to witnesses and lawyers who think, i do not recall, is the safe answer that will never steer you into troub

ornato that had happened. and we'll see. there were different recollections about that.the real point wasn't whether or not there was, you know, a physical altercation of a minor sort, it was whether the former president intended to go to the capitol and there is ample evidence from multiple sources that that was his intention. and i think that is very chilling. as one of the officers said, and i think we've played this or had the record in one of our hearings, his going to the capitol turned this into something other than a rally. it turned it into a coup attempt. >> it is extraordinary. so much of the evidence and the witness testimony and the taped depositions that the committee produced for the public consumption was extraordinary. when you hear kevin mccarthy talking about investigating the investigators, what does that make you think? >> i have no idea what kevin is thinking. you know, that somehow they're going to seize the records. well that is not going to be necessary. because we're going to publish everything. we're going to publish all of the evidence. and th

we know that since the last public hearing the committee has spoken with tony ornato, i was on december 6th and bobby angle, i was on december 17th. both of those secret service agents were key players in cassidy hutchinson's bombshell testimony about what happened with the president on january 6th. do you think that testimony, the information gleaned from those interviews and those testimonies will be in the report that we see next week? >> the matter with the secret service was i think the last big final leg of this investigation. all of that sort of blew up after the final of the last public hearing that the committee had. the members were essentially enraged upon learning that text messages had been deleted, that they hadn't got full cooperation from the service secret service, that they believe that some of the agents may have misled the committee. so they hauled in these agents again to re-interview them. my understanding of what they have learned is a bunch of conflicting stories and they basically just do not believe some people were being fully honest with the committee, that s

specifically deputy chief of staff tony ornato. multiple times in the report that the committee found multiple parts of his testimony questionable. you also raise the specter of potential pressure on witnesses. and you raise kayleigh mcenany and other witnesses who had less than forthcoming testimony. is it your opinion that donald trump or his allies may have been pressuring these witnesses to say or not say certain things to the committee and is that something the doj should investigate in terms of witness tampering? >> i think the department should investigate these issues and we are concerned. when a witness is told basically that, you know, the president or the former president is reading these transcripts is basically told we're going to know what you said and that's going to matter and also is giving incentives like we've got this cushy job where you can live very comfortably then, yes, that's designed to influence that witness' testimony, whether that goes across the line to be prosecutable will be up to the department of j

green and ornato down over 40% this year so far. kelly?robert, i asked dom, and others made the point. very expensive to convert office to residential much cheaper to just build residential new, and that's going to be another headwind for investors in these reits. >> that's right. i mean, the silver bullet would be convert some of this 100 million square feet in much-needed apartments still seeing record rents in manhattan. as you say, it's very expensive, land and building costs high zoning complicated even then unclear on the commercial side whether we can bring people back to the city, then added layoffs not just in tech increasingly in the financial sector. >> true. >> the convention bullet is just not going to save the commercial space and some of these reits. >> right pulling back as well, perhaps mondays and fridays reflecting a new normal robert frank that does it for "the exchange." "power lunch" begins right out in. >>> thank you. welcome to "power lunch" i'm tyler mathisen what we've got in store for you today. a central bank su

know, anything more we can glean from some of these high-profile witness, cassie hutchinson, tony ornato, a white house aide, thoet boast come to mind but more information about, you know, what the committee alluded to as potential obstruction when it came to their investigation. if there is evidence of that and either in the committee report or transcripts that follow that is the thing the justice department will prosecute and saw that when it comes to roger stone lying to congress a couple of years ago. the committee said at that time why they felt he lied. the evidence for that and the justice department did prosecute in that case. >> of course, these transcripts will be accessible to the public. they could also provide some important evidence if you are trump's defense team, i would imagine, norm, as an experienced defense lawyer yourself, if you were trump's attorney right now, what would you be looking for in these materials? >> i'm looking for any information that exculpates trump, that shows that he -- proof that he can use that he didn't commit this crime. these alleged crimes.

should note that the report should say that she doubled down on in sworn testimony and said that tony ornatoore times afterwards. >> she did. >> yeah. >> but those are inconsistencies that could cause problems down the road in a criminal process because the burden is proof beyond a reasonable doubt. and it may not be the same in one setting as another. those are things that could raise doubt for jurors and they're you're electorates so these are what prosecutors will have to take into account and look for the strong elements of a case that he could prove in a criminal case, in a criminal prosecution. >> the standard for that is much higher, right, beyond a reasonable doubt. >> that is right. the standard for the prosecutor is beyond a reasonable doubt. this report is a letter to him, the referrals are a letter and it is an effort made to make it nonpolitical. the evidence in the report was not subject to cross-examination, it was not subject to the scrutiny that a defense lawyer or group of defense lawyers might put on it if charges are brought. and simple statements that witnesses made to a

we saw hints about, you know, interviews with key people, tony ornato, the former secret service officialthat could have been a witness to the altercation between trump and his security detail in his suv on january 6th. we saw clues about all the text messages and white house visitor list after all the hard fought court battles. you bring up the lack of criticism of the law enforcement, and the committee stressed over and over again they wanted the summary to be kind of a basic road map to the rest of the report, right, and to present a singular narrative. that's what they tried to do is keep the focus on trump. we're likely to see them expand more on the law enforcement piece of the puzzle once we get the report itself. we know they interviewed plenty of key players on the capitol and they will make legislative recommendations and we will see how that turns out. >> i want to play something from "morning joe," and one is the position the j6 committee was in, and the position the doj is in in deciding whether or not they will move forward with criminal charges. and let's look at what let t

she tells him, i had this conversation with deputy white house chief of staff tony ornato when we gotack from the rally that day and he told me the president tried to wrap his hands around bobby engel's neck and strangle him because engel wouldn't take him to the capitol. he tells her, she doesn't need to go there or share it with the committee. hutchinson tried to get clarity, what's the line that i draw here. her lawyer's response, quote, look, the goal with you is to get you in and out. keep your answers short, sweet and simple. the less the committee thinks you know, the better. it's going to be painless and then you're going to be taken care of, unquote. cassidy hutchinson says, quote, he specifically told me i don't want you to purger yourself, but i don't recall isn't perjury, unquote. keep in mind, all this time, he is helping to set her up on job interviews. he says, quote, we're going to get you a good job in trump world. you don't need to apply at other places, we want to keep you in the family. so the free legal representation and job opportunities are what she's getting,

tony ornato, one of the key people center many what happened in the presidential vehicle, he today the committee often he couldn't recall. hutchinson getting thaadvice. we know she was the one to put that story in the public view during the special hearing. >> barbara, i'm not a lawyer but i know that saying i don't recall when you do recall, that's perjury. >> absolutely. the reason i don't recall can be problematic for prosecutors is, it can be difficult to know what someone did and did not recall. if they say they did not recall, then in some instances, you just sort of have to live with that answer, if you can't otherwise prove it. that does not give you license to say i don't recall when you do recall. that's what was going on here. he says he is talking out of both sides of his mouth when he says, i'm not asking you to perjure yourself. witnesses are compelled to answer questions truthfully. lying about what you do and do not recall is perjury. >> let me read from the transcript. she says he told her, quote, if you don't want 100% recall something, even if you don't recall a date

told the committee, quote, i said something to stephen like, yes, i had this conversation with tony ornato, trump's deputy chief of staff, when we got back from the rally that day, and tony told me that the president tried to wrap his hands around the secret service agents neck and strangle him, because he would not take him to the capitol. stephen said no, no, no. i remember he sat back in his chair and said, no, no, no. we don't want to go there. we do not want to talk about that. that is the kind of legal advice that staffers, people who relied on the former presidents network of legal counsel. that is the advice that they were getting as the january 6th committee concluded its work. as we learned from cassidy hutchinson's transcript today, it was not just the pressure of those trump approved lawyers to avoid telling the committee what you knew. hutchison told the committee she was also receiving offers of financial support, and promises of offers for jobs that, did not actually exist. and, what she felt, was an attempt to buy her silence. but cassidy did not acquiesce to the pressure o

however, the testimony from former trump deputy chief of staff, tony ornato left at least one committeeore information. >> let me just say, i still have more questions and answers. and we are going to release all of the evidence, all of the transcripts and people can reach their own conclusions. >> that's a lot committee with a report will come out just before christmas, it's focused former president trump's role in the insurrection. and the meantime, trump is already started calling for another coup. and a post on his twitter knock, off truth social trump demanded the quote termination of the constitution so that he could be reinstated as president. once, again falsely pushing claims of election fraud. former president took an oath to uphold the constitution, now calling for it to be suspended purely for self serving purposes. joining me now msnbc contributor, former watergate prosecutor jill wine-banks. co-host of the hashtag sisters in law podcast and author of the watergate girl book. and political investigations reporter at the guardian, hugo lowe. it is good to see you both. and i

but they're very interested in what people like, you know, people like tony ornato for example told the. they want these transcripts so they can compare the interviews they're doing with the interviews that people have already done with the committee and they want all of the evidence that the committee had, and build on it, it is not so much as a handleoff as sort of a running, passing of the baton in a relay race, the justice department picked it up now and they move forward. >> ken dilanian, ryan nobles, thank you very much. appreciate it. >>> and still ahead, i will talk to the co-chair of the congressional ukraine caucus about president zelenskyy's prime time address which is now just a couple of hours away. first up though, we're going to take you inside the situation at the southern border, as the supreme court weighs the future of title 42. as the supreme court weighs the fute ur of title 42. even when things seem quieter, the urge to protect means staying on the lookout to help keep others from harm. at pfizer, we're driven by this impulse. we've reached hundreds of millions of

hearings that we haven't heard in the previous televised hearings, including the casting doubt on tony ornato's, we had the debate between the secret service agents and hutchinson's testimony as well about trump's actions while he was in the motorcade during the day of the actual riot. there was also findings around the law enforcement apparatus, the secret service having intelligence and having it with the national security council in the days leading up to that attack. there's been a lot of criticism i've heard from the republican party about the lack of focus and even debate within the committee about the focus that should be given towards law enforcement breakdown versus trump. today we saw both. we did see criticism both towards the former president, as well as some of the apparatus, the law enforcement apparatus leading up to the attack. >> kristen, jamie raskin, we just ran this clip of him talking about in this country we don't just go after the foot soldiers and ringleaders get a pass. it's very aspirational. as a constitutional law professor, i don't begrudge him saying that. i though

perjury, if it occurred, would have been behind the scenes, someone like, say, dan ornato seems to beulprit. when you think about the subcommittee hear, who made the recommendations, raskin, schiff, cheney, it seems to me, even though it's the number one thunderbolt, i can't see them making a referral that doesn't include donald trump. >> garrett, let me talk about the hundreds of police officers who defended the capitol during the insurrection. they received congress' highest honor, the congressional gold medal. talk about the significance of the gold medals. >> reporter: it's a reminder of the gratitude that everyone in the capitol community, reporters and myself included, have towards these officers from the capitol police and the d.c. metropolitan police who responded on that day and were able to secure the capitol before the night was over and let congress continue with their work. this ceremony was voted on back in june of last year. it takes about this long to mint the medals and prepare the ceremony. it was a bipartisan vote, but not every house republican did vote in favor of

people like tony ornato and others who we think will have a lot of news value in them once we're ablehrough them in full. we got to see the relevant portions of some of these transcripts. the pieces that the committee thought fit their narrative, but now we're going to read them in full. that's where the raw data will have the news value for us. >> and congresswoman, what are you going to be looking for in this report? >> i think the great value of this report is that this is kind of like the museum about what happened on january 6th. a lot of people focus on these criminal referrals that the committee made. we have seen some of the dramatic testimony from people who were very close to him, including some members of his own family. so i think the big value here in this report is going to be for history. not so much for the 2024 election, but what happened on the 6th of january what can we learn from it. this is like the 9/11 commission that took a deep dive into the traumatic event for the country. this is another traumatic event. we have to learn from it. that's going to be the value