and now, a former counterterrorism expert phil mudd is joining us.his group is possibly the most deadly part of isis but they have only been affiliated with isis for about a year. they have their own group and pledge allegiance to isis themselves. do you think they could have pulled this off or do you think isis is now more powerful and directed an attack like this? >> we're talking about capabilities, that is, whether a group can train a bunch of people to get into a relatively unsecured airport, maybe a modestly sophisticated device. the story is not whether they have or have not had the capabilities to do this. if you look at the terrorist organizations, the hardest question as a professional to answer is what is their intent? most organizations struggle beyond saying i want to attack a local police station. the number of organizations that have a visionary leadership at the top that says let me take the isis or al qaeda message and target the head of the state, the israelis, the russians, that is very few. the message here is not the capability t

we have cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudd, cnn national security analyst and former congressman mike rogers, former chairman of the house intelligence committee. and with me here in paris cnn terror analyst paul cruickshank. congressman, let me start with you. isis claims to have blown a russian passenger jet out of the sky, killed scores of innocent people in beirut with suicide bombs, and now this horrific massacre in paris. do three external operations in rapid succession represent a change in strategy for the terrorists? or is it just now they're capable of it? >> it's probably a little bit of both. operations all had a thread back to syria in some way. so they planned an external operation from syria and made them happen in third countries, in egypt, in lebanon, now in france and paris. so that in and of itself is a change that they've been telling us they're going to engage in for some time. and if you remember, jake, the big fight between zawahiri, head of al qaeda and isis baghdadi was not about the brutality of their tactics. it was that baghdadi wanted to attack europe

and rick francona, thank you for that, and phil mudd, thank you for that. d before you go, phil, i want to throw one more question to you, because i am not satisfied with the fact that we have all of the clues with the familial connection to the paris attacker, and again, we had two of them. ibrahim and salah abdeslam were both question ed in january and one of them stopped leaving the attack and released. what good to have the intelligence on these guy, and what good to stop them and interrogate them if you can't get to the bottom of anything before they blow themselves up with a lot of people? >> well, ashleigh, this is two things that goes on with the cases. one is straight forward and that is triage. emergency room. who is highest on the list to get the technical surveillance. that is expensive and not only listening to the phone or the e-mail, but hiring translators, and the first that you have heard a thousand times is the try yaj problem, triage problem, and the second is that you are expecting two brothers among the belgians and the americans and the

. >>> i want to bring in former cia counterterrorism official, phil mudd. my first question to you here is if abdeslam is in syria, how much more difficult will it be to nab him? >> we should have presumed this for a while, though. it looked like when he left paris, he did not have a plan of action. in the intervening few weeks, the french and belgian authorities would have looked at every single place they would have contacted him. they would have looked at his digital trail, his cell phone, and talked to every contact, friends and family. over time, especially with the networks isis has to get people out of europe into turkey and into syria, that he would have left. i think he'll have a choice. if he decides to become part of the propaganda machine for isis, do propaganda videos, celebrating what he did in france, then he'll crop up on the radar of people like the americans, british, french. his life span in my judgment will be rel lively short. difficult to track him but eventually he'll go down. >> like we saw with jihadi john not too long ago let's say

phil mudd is former deputy director of the cia's counterterrorism center, and david ross study for the terrorist radicalization. thank you all for being with us. paul, i want to start with you. this suicide vest apparently pound in mountrouge. >> it's believed he just his car in the 18th district that night. it's in the south of paris, but there's a direct metro line between the 18th more north and also just in the last few minutes, a french newspaper in bf mtv reporting that salah abdelsalam's cell phone was traced down to the montrouge area of paris. an indicator this may well have been his suicide vest that they have discovered in this area. >> obviously, phil mudd, the search for salah abdelsalam, one of the most important aspects of this investigation right now. what if they don't get him? >> look, at some point this is going to have a transition from a law enforcement investigation to intelligence. over the course of time as they interview people, as they acquire more intelligence about a potential location in brussels, if it turns out he's not there and we discover that he's in

thank you, phil mudd for your insight on that.act your world has been compiling ways to support the victims and the friends and family in paris. to find out more go to cnn.com/ cnn.com/impact, and a great thing to do on this thanksgiving. we will be right back. attention americans eligible for medicare. the medicare enrollment deadline is just a few days away. changes to medicare plans could significantly impact your healthcare costs. to find out if you're are you are you getting all the benefits you're entitled to call healthmarkets? hi, i'm doctor martin gizzi it's a new medicare year. that means more changes ... and more confusion. my advice? don't go it alone. you can get smart, unbiased help finding the right coverage for you. call healthmarkets today. we search thousands of medicare plans from leading insurance companies. plans that may... cost less... cover more ... with more choices... like dental and vision care ... and freedom to choose your own doctors all at a price you can afford. we find the right plan for you. and w

joining us now is our cnn terrorism expert paul cruickshank and fbi analyst phil mudd.hat do we need to do first and foremost, what would you say? >> i would say, first go to silicon valley and say here's your top secret clearance, here's what is happening with the encryption of this case. you guys need to figure out how to figure out how to get into people's e-mails. the second conversation i'd have with secretary perry, we have principles we want to apply in syria, we'd like a transition and we're going to have to sacrifice those in the effort to find stability. we're going to have to figure out a way to work with the russians to bring this place under control. >> because these encrypted communications, these apps these terrorists are using, the law enforcement in europe cannot monitor it? >> that's right. the people in california will say, look, we can't give you the information on what is happening on our websites, on e-mails, for example, because we don't control it anymore. it's encrypted. we have to have a conversation to get around that because in the intelligen

phil mudd it certainly is an act of terror. the president of the united states called it an act of terror, simultaneous attacks going on in paris, the french president saying a state of emergency is been declared. he says that all of france's borders are closed as a result of what is going on. what else is your analysis, phil, of what you're seeing and hearing? >> couple things you got to think about here. number one, you have a broad spectrum of individuals which tells me this was planned for system time. this is not a home grown that decided last night he would go and operate. number two, they have access to an array of weapons and explosives which means there is a network in paris that's not only a broad number of people but weapons and they are getting access. the selection of targets is interesting. typically we talk about iconic targets like isis and the sinai. i look at this and don't see iconic targets yet. that is did they simply select these targets because they were soft and targets of opportunity? these are not plac

phil mudd will that work?e confusing the threat to the united states and number two, territory in syria. there is a fight in syria that iraqi and others should be leading and we should be supporting. that has little to do with a small sliver of a terror organization plotting against paris or new york or washington. we should focus resources on the terror aspect of isis and support people focussing on the geography. >> general, if you take a look at the map, the president says isis is contained geographically in iraq and syria. holding on to what they had but not getting further. other countries are clearly expanding their reach. it's very, very alarming when you see where they have now established serious territory. >> i'm not sure they are expanding their territory as much as other organizations are wanting brand names of isis. some organizations exist for a long time. boca haram and several others around the region and now they are assuming the name of isis and it appears isis is growing. they certainly may

pet peter goelz is joining us, and also our counter terrorism analyst phil mudd. and peter, let's talk about the flight data recorder of the cockpit voice recorder, and the fir first reports of what was found on the recorders, and talk about this uncharacteristic noise, non-standard emergencies, and what does that say to you as someone who has done a number of these investigations? >> well w it could be as simple as sounds of the plane coming p apart, and if the that is the case, perhaps the sound of an explosion, and perhaps the sound of something else. there was not enough time to discuss it. not enough time to send out an emergency call. my guess is a that it is a very short segment of noise and if the investigators are skilled, they can trace in which direction that noise is coming from, and perhaps identify whether it was a high order explosion or something less like a tearing sound. >> evidence, phil, is pointing us away from the possibility off a surface to air missile or the shoulder-fired missile or for that matter, they are looking for a blast inside of

we have phil mudd, and kimberly dozier, and also major general retired mark spider marks. you have heard that until mond monday, they will stay on the next state of alert that is basically telling the people to stay inside of their homes, and that is extraordinary. >> yes, the extent of the war g warning to the government gives me one clear indication that these are not precautionary measures based on the concern that terrorists went back from paris to brussels, but there has to be specific intelligence, because you don't shutdown the city, because you are worried that people are traveling around. and the specific stuff. and the hardest thing here is not to get into the warning. it is the determining if you don't get additional intelligence, how to get out. >> hold on one second. i want to go to the white house. >> well, julian, i have not spoken to him about the specific comments that you cited. one thing, and two things, actually that the two individuals are keenly aware of. the first is that both of othem are aware of how challenging this particular problem is. when it

let's talk more about this and bring in our our counter terrorism expert phil mudd on this. spent years with the cia, and if you were there right now after this raid overnight, and two people dead, but seven people detand, with what are you doing with the seven people after this raid right now? >> the couple of pieces that you have to focus on now always, always imminent threat. the first question that you to ask is if there is something else afoot that we have to stop now. the second question is that you have to ask a people question. are there other cokon spe-consp out there and support network for the false documents and the travel and the facilitation, and the provision of money. so you start with the imminent threat and then to the plotters and the expanded plot. over time, you have to have more advanced conversations about things like what is the network leading back to seyria, and how did you arrange travel back to the syria, but you have to start at the core of imminent threat and slowly and even over weeks and months build it out. >> and what about the connection of

. >> phil mudd, thank you for joining us. a scary thing about a detonator in paris. her son murdered at a gas station in 2012. you know the trial, it was called the loud music trial. the murderer sentenced to life in pris on. it's now the subject of a new documentary. ahead, we'll speak with the mother. her son, jordan davis, killed at 17 years old. that's ahead. >>> it's called home boy industries. i traveled to los angeles to meet this guy, a jesuit priest who is literally turning miles an hour owe miles an hour ackles. pulling gang members out. that's ahead. ♪ everything kids touch during cold and flu season sticks with them. make sure the germs they bring home don't stick around. use clorox disinfecting products. because no one kills germs better than clorox. i am totally blind. and sometimes i struggle to sleep at night, and stay awake during the day. this is called non-24. learn more by calling 844-824-2424. or visit your24info.com. ♪ nothing artificial. just real roasted turkey. salt. pepper. carved thick. that's the right way to make a good turkey sandwich. t

. >> reporter: cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudd says given the meticulous planning of the parisks and the operational security of the isis cells, the nature of the bataclan assault was surprising. >> the attackers were overwhelmed by the emotion of the moment. they just went in and shot everything they could find. the indiscriminate nature of this to me was striking. >> members of eagles of death metal eventually got off stage, up to the room and exit out a door. some scrambled out, others hung from window sills. as he reflected on those moments, the band's co-founder told vice he wants to be the first to play at the bataclan when it reopens. and he'll always feel a strong connection with the fans inside the concert hall. >> kids that were there i feel like we are in it together especially now. and really i'm grateful for that. >> the band's musicians all made it out alive, but their merchandise manager nic alexander was killed. one band member says after he was shot alexander stayed quiet, he didn't call out for help because he didn't want to draw the terrorists attention and g

. >>> phil mudd, mitch silver and our terrorism analyst paul crushank. do you think they are closing in? >> i do think they are getting close. there was a key arrest sunday night. it was the guy who picked salah abdeslam up once he got to brussels. he was picked up by this other accomplice who is now under arrest. that puts them one step closer to finding salah abdeslam. >> we learned the ring leader abdelhamid abaaoud was driving around, calling on his cell phone to see what they were doing and going to each location to see what happened. why would he have done that? >> a couple of things we are learning here. that looks like an amateur move to me. even if they received rudimentary training, they think less about how to escape than the event itself. i think a couple of things happened here. he was nervous. he was trying to figure out the extent of the reaction against the attacks. i also think when they looked at the second round of attacks in northern paris they bit off more than they could chew. isis, this is their first major foray into a big terrori

i want to bring in phil mudd here. let's talk about what the gunmen and the clothing that they were apparently wearing according to eyewitnesss and to what they're telling the reporters there, three of the attackers were wearing explosive vests and also allah akbar, what does that tell you? >> this is what we expect in a classic isis inspired attack. the number of people, the fact they are killing civilians indiscriminately. the vests are interesting from one particular optic. you look at that and say they must have been planning to increase the number of civilian casualties. i think individuals are going into a location, anticipating or expecting to lose their lives in this attack. if they had been approached by police or involved in shootouts i would have expected them to use the belts to kill themselves so they could not be captured. this reconfirmed that this was potentially an isis attack. though it doesn't look like a suicide operation, a backpack or an explosive-laden vehicle, they re going in there without expe

cnn counterterrorism intelligence phil mudd joins us. you have worked inside the cia. you have had your eye on people like this over the last several decades. i want to know if they identify jihadi john in syria, does this mean that the united states has some friendly assets on the ground, somehow infiltrating that isis circumstanle? >> sure. there's a big but. have you to think about three steps. number one, identifying that they know that jihadi john is up somewhere in syria. they have identified him on a phone. secondly, finding him in space. if you identified in making a mistake on a phone, talking to the wrong person, exactly where is he so you can begin to think about a shot. and the third is determining where he's going to be tomorrow. that is finding out where he was yesterday that's not good enough. that's classic intelligence. that's not drone intelligence. you want to predict enough so you've got an aerial device in the sky to hit him. the problem with this, john, is you're talking about one individual and technical intelligence on that individual. it does n

i want to go now to counterterrorism official phil mudd, mitch silver, and terrorism analyst paul cruickshank. a lot to talk about here. paul, in just 24 hours, paris and belgium banning some employees with tarmac and plane access because they say they could be muslim extremists or radicalized. now they are looking, all of a sudden they find r50, 60 people. how could they have missed this before? >> there are questions about this, erin, and the concern is that these people really want to bring down planes and insiders at the airport, people with access to the baggage, the tarmac, cleaning crews, those are the kind of people that can potentially get bombs on planes. and especially in the united states. there's just no systematic daily screening of airport workers in nearly every american airport. the only airports that do it are miami and orlando. that may well have to change. there are going to be a lot of calls for that to change every airport worker who has access to these sensitive workers should be screened. >> phil, there's that issue. then you have this issue. let's just take france. ch

joining us now is a senior fellow with the foundation for the defense of democracy, phil mudd and juliette kayene. how sophisticated was this terror attack? >> you have to look at two steps. the first step pretty sophisticated. typically, we're talking in the united states about homegrown operations, where you're talking about one, two, three people. this is far more substantial than that. not only in terms of the number of people, but the operation also fial sophistication they had to use. the second piece i point out is nibble in this kind of enterprise with this number of people, you have to be thinking about travel, documents, money. they had to have had a support network that is pretty sophisticated and probably some connectivity with isis in syria and iraq. so if you're looking at sophistication, i would put this at the top 5%, 1%, pretty sophisticated. >> julia, as you know ten months ago, we watched the attacks on the "charlie hebdo" magazine in paris. at the time the french president vowed to clamp down on extremists across the country, and we learned today that one of the terrori

joining me now, our counter terrorism analyst phil mudd, peter bergen, and former operative bob baier, peter, and the arrests we know of. they have identified one of what officials say are seven attackers. of course, they think there possibly could be more. they don't yet know. they do think there are a lot of people involved in making this happen. they have arrested three people in belgium. one of whom, the name was on the rental cars that they used, the attackers used here in paris. and two others who are related to one of the attackers. what do you think about the arrests? how many more are coming? >> we've got to be patient here. step one of the investigation, we've seen in the past 24 hours. that is chaos, and then the initial identification of the attackers. we have at least one identification. as soon as you get that name, that's going to mean an e-mail, a cell phone number. the amount of information is going to blow up. so you can start picking up other people. fathers, brothers, co-conspirators. you don't know who those other people are yet. but you as a counterterrorism inve

for russians to do an about-face, we were just talking about this with the formatter cia operative phil mudd this must be very clear and a big deal, this intelligence. >> yeah, absolutely. american and british intelligence according to the kremlin official i spoke to earlier on this evening. clearly it was enough, big enough, for them to do an about-face like you say, but also to ban flights, not just from the sinai peninsula or shafrm el shake but from the whole of egypt. they suspended all air operations to and from egypt. it gives the suggestion that there is the possibility of a continued threat towarrussian airliners from that country. so they're going to be embarking on a process now they've probably already started of narrowing the threat down and do a proper risk assessment to get the flights back running again. but at the moment, the. >> emily: fis is on banning the flights and getting the 50,000 russians who are in egypt right now back home. it will be a bit logistical problem. >> matthew chance, thank you so much live from moscow. we should say the banning of flights from egypt, t

let's dig deeper with paul in paris and former assistant fbi director tom and phil mudd. hamid abaqoud was in that apartment when blown up and he was killed, even the body parts, they would be able to determine fairly soon whether or not he's the guy who was killed. >> should be able to. you don't need much to do dna analysis. you get a piece of a pinky you can do it. there are co-conspirators taken, you better tell me who is in there and died and didn't. you have dna and opportunity -- >> you think the guys they arrested will talk? >> they may. depends on personal psychology. you would think they would be so hardened they wouldn't talk. when the emotional bubble is broken, some would say i'm scared, i'll talk. not common but it happens. >> i agree. it happens. >> senator ris sh was here with me and he said four of those killed, they were known to u.s. intelligen intelligence, known to u.s. officials. if they were known to u.s. officials, wouldn't they be known to french officials? >> the information that led the u.s. to put them on the watch list here. that was shared. >>

and our cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudd, former cia official. unusual is it when the u.s. embassy in kabul issues a warning to all americans of an imminent threat and then go one step further and say within the next 48 hours? a specific warning like that, they got to know something. >> that's right. pretty unusual to get this level of detail. i think you got to look at two pieces. first it's the backdrop. the taliban has been trying to show in the midst of the u.s. withdrawal how significant they are in afghanistan. one of the ways to show that is to prove that they can attack the most secure area in the country, that's the capital. with that as a backdrop you get information in as an intelligence specialist that says something in this circumstance like some guys around the campfire saying they're coming in the next day or two. you don't have the specificity to stop the plot, but with that level of specificity from someone like a human source or telephone intercept, you have to go out in public and say over the next couple days we're going to shu

joining us now peter bergen, phil mudd, former cia official and mark hertling. just heard evan's very disturbing report. so are u.s. military members in danger right now? >> i think absolutely. i don't know how you would make an argument another way. let's do the arrhythmia tick here. we've already seen isis inspired attacks on the military in the united states. and isis has talked about the military being a legitimate target. in their eyes a far more legitimate target than a civilian who doesn't carry a weapon and won't be deployed overseas. add that to two other pieces of this arithmetic. finally, the number of isis sympathizers in the united states, the fbi has talked about hundreds going overseas. you've got to assume that behind that is thousands of people in the united states who are sympathizers. if you think one or two of them won't look at this and take the message that says just find somebody on facebook and attack them, i don't know how you do that math. >> so, general hertling, how should members of the u.s. military respond to these threats? >> wolf,

i want to bring in our counterterrorism analyst phil mudd, former cia official. ning us julia yaffi and cnn contributor michael weiss senior editor of the daily beast, co-author of "isis inside the army of terror." phil, it's almost two weeks. abdelsalam is still missing, still at large. what does that say there's a huge manhunt underway in france, belgium, elsewhere, this guy is still at large. >> tells me a couple things. first, you get two questions when you start acquiring information. that information is all these people being brought in for questioning and all the digital information, cell phones. the two questions are is there a thread of information from those people that suggest there's a following attack? and the second is, where is this guy? after two weeks they must have raided or looked at every location he was familiar with. so you got to step back and ask yourself, brussels isn't only a place he's familiar with, it's an avenue for recruits back to syria. did he take that recruitment path early on after the attack sns is he gone already? >> michael,

law enforcement analyst tom fuentes, former fbi assistant director, cnn counterterrorism analyst phil mudder cia official and michael weiss, senior editor at the daily beast, coauthor of the book isis inside the army of terror. tom, i've got the worldwide alert right now. possible risks of travel due to increased terrorist threats and then go into specifics mentioning al qaeda, mentioning isis, boko haram, other terrorist groups. people are getting ready to travel for thanksgiving, for christmas, this is going to scare a lot of people. >> when did they write that, wolf, about ten years ago? >> well, this has just been issued within the past few minutes. >> okay. >> what are you saying? >> well, it's the same thing they're always putting out. those kind of alerts out every couple months when something new happens, another attack somewhere. we know that. americans need to be vigilant anywhere they're going in the world. these are always possible. they've been possible for a long time now. >> but here's the news in this, and this travel alert expires they say february 24th, 2016. phil, it say

let's bring in our counterterrorism analyst phil mudd, former cia official, our terrorism analyst paullong with paul hertling. what are you hear sng. >> isis has claimed responsibility for this for murdering these two anti-isis activists in southern turkey. their >>> their bodies were found on friday. this is the first time isis has claimed responsibility for an attack inside turkey, but there have been five attacks linked to the group where investigators have believed the group was responsible. that includes the ankara bombings on october 10, when more than 100 were killed. who trained in syria who carried out that attack. >> phil, are these killings the evidence of strengthening. >> i think i see a broader problem here, though, wolf. that is in the internet age, and isis is the first extort of terror group to effectively use that, facebook, twitter, et cetera. i can see them identifying, whether it's north america, europe, in this case turkey, simply tells sympathizers to take out activists. if you're an activist, you have to look at this as not only an indicator that you're in isis

>> phil mudd, michael weiss, thank you so much. >>> a new cnn/orc poll released just minutes ago shows donald trump and ben carson running neck and neck in iowa. trump april 25%, carson at 23%. meanwhile, the stage is set for next week's republican debate with some notable changes in the lineup. cnn's sara murray is live in our washington bureau. what's been changed, sara? >> there are going to be some changes but first i want to take another quick look at that poll. it is clear there are two tiers of candidates emerging. trump and carson, almost tied, 25%, 23%. a big jump for carson since august. but you also see rubio and cruz, they're in the teens and then it's just everybody else. so a big division there and when we look ahead to this fox business debate, it will be a slightly smaller stage. there are going to be eight candidates. chris christie and mike huckabee are missing the cut for the big kid's table. they'll be in the so-called undercard debate. lindsey graham isn't going to be on the debate stage at all, neither is george pataki. it's going to be less quippy. if you look ba

phil mud is mudd, paul cruickshank. paul, let me start with you. let's just tart with what drew is reporting. it is pretty shocking that you see an entire city shut down, no schools, no public transportation because they say there's an imminent threat of a paris-style attack and yet they say nothing about who they are looking for. do they not know? >> well, there could be reasons as to why they are not telling the public about that. there appear to be some specific information that came in on friday, that there was potentially another attack team out there. but clearly they don't know who necessarily is involved, what direction it's coming from, what the target is going to be. and so on and so forth. that they knew all of those things, they wouldn't have had to issue such an unprecedented alert. i mean, we saw that cell they broke up in eastern belgium in january. they didn't put out any alert because they were monitoring these people 24/7. they had a good handle on that plot. they clearly don't have a good handle on this one. in light of what happ

. >> phil mudd speaking earlier.lso spoken out, calling the attacks part of a piecemeal third world war. and there have been arrests in france and belgium. >> around the word, many people are showing their solidarity with france. major cities across the united states, canada and throughout europe changed lights on historic buildings to represent the colors of france. >> many in paris are visiting makeshift memorials at the scenes of the attacks. atika scubert shock to some of the mourners about the violence. >> reporter: the sound of paris has been reduced to a murmur of mourning. as parisians come to this tiny corner of the city to see the aftermath. alexandra was supposed to meet her friends here last night. >> maybe i catch you later, guys. and i never catch them. she died. she was my friend. and i didn't say to my family -- i said to my family, i go there and i didn't say i change my plans, so my mom came to the hospital to see if she find me body. >> reporter: they stair at the bullet holes and look in disbelief

joining me here in new york to talk about all of this, philip mudd, the former director of the cia. phil, i want to start with you. whenever these events take place, we look back and say, oh, we should have known these guys. but i mean you've been there in realtime. there are thousands of leads at all times. what turned out to be leads, 99.9% of them are false. were there genuine mistakes in this case? >> the day after you're always saying here's the data on this, how could you not have seen this in advance. you've got to boil it down to one case. you can't do that with 100% probability. i think what we may find here is not necessarily that you can find every one of these cases. but that europe when it gains information on its citizens, some states are still reluctant to pass that information to another state. for example, if you're radicalizing, that's not illegal. do you want to tell a neighboring state one of our citizens is traveling, we have information that he may be going down a path of radicalization. >> for democracy, this is a really tough choice. that's freedom f of expression

also with me cnn counterterrorism analyst phillip mudd who worked for the cia among other organizations. thanks to both of you for joining me. philll start with you. isis was quick to claim responsibility. the director of national clapper, said isis has an s aggressive chapter in the sinai peninsula. does isis have the capability of doing something like this? >> my guess is i doubt it. look, remember when we saw that airliner go down over ukraine a year, year and a half ago. you're talking about in that case russian equipment with the trained battery of people to take down an aircraft over 30,000 feet. this plane itself was over 30,000 in sinai. i don't know if a terrorist group that has the capability to do that. that is a serious piece of equipment with some people that had a lot of training. you can't just roll something out and take a plane like that down at that altitude if you're a terror group. >> so just to explain for our viewers a surface-to-air missile that you put over your shoulder. >> can't do it. >> rpg. >> not enough. >> mary, the plane dropped off the radar 23 minutes into the flight well after takeoff, does that

phil black reporting live from london. joining me now to discuss all of this, cnn counterterrorism expert, philip mudd.u. happy thanksgiving. >> happy thanksgiving to you. we must remember it is thanksgiving, although we have to talk about seergs stuff. a lot of stuff going on this morning. you have the turkish president talking tough against russia. hollande meeting with vladimir putin. david cameron trying to urge his own parliament to allow air strikes over syria. what should we make of all this? >> let's step back because we're missing half of this conversation. the first half is when we've been talking about since the paris attacks, escalation of french and british, i assume hollande is going to talk to vladimir putin about deacon flikting the air separation in syria. you were right, asking putin to focus more on isis and less on the moderate opposition. there's a bigger question here. the white house and president obama have isolated themselves from putin by taking a hard line on assad. putin, meanwhile, has laid out a diplomatic track that might eventually lead to a solution, a political solutio