avery friedman and richard herman.actually went to federal court yesterday in north carolina. said he didn't do anything wrong. he's accused of basically using money from some wealthy donors to hide his affair with rielle hunter, which everyone says clearly is morally wrong. the question is whether or not it is legally wrong. avery, i'll let you go first this time. do you think the prosecution has a case here? >> well, there's something there, richelle. they are using a theory that is untested in american jurisprudential history. there is no case law supporting it. this is the first indictment, frankly, i've seen in decades, if ever, that relies on a "national enquirer" article. a federal district judge may very well throw the case out because of the unprecedented nature of the case. >> richard, do you agree? is this ever going to get to a jury? >> i think there's a chance it gets to the jury, richelle. but the problem here is that he's relying upon -- edwards acknowledges, yes, this money was used to cover up his rela

joining us criminal defense attorney richard herman, he is in las vegas. ard, i mean, this was pretty incredible what we saw over the weekend. there was this -- the judge was quite frustrated by everything. they said there was surprising information. now we know that casey anthony underwent examinations by three psychologists at the request of her own attorney about whether or not she's competent to stand trial here. what do we know about this? what was behind that? >> well, suzanne, if you look into this courtroom carefully, you can see the light at the end of the tunnel and the pressure each day now is mounting because, obviously, the -- what's at stake here is her life. i mean in every criminal case, especially with the federal sentencing guidelines it becomes a pressure cooker, the closer we get to the end. here she walked in the courtroom saturday, she was visibly shaken, she was crying, she was upset. this motion was made. it was properly made. no one should take -- blame anybody for making this. they should have made this motion. they had to make the

let's bring in our legal guys, avery friedman in cleveland and richard herman joining us from vegas. e you guys. i missed you. >> fred, welcome back. >> we missed you. >> our queen is back. >> you're so kind. to my kings now, richard, if she does take the stand, of course there are other things we can talk about in terms of who the defense has called and the prosecution resting its case. but let's talk about whether casey anthony should, would take the stand or how could she avoi void it at this point? >> she cannot take the stand. i can't say that any louder. she cannot, she must not take the stand in this case. >> why not? >> if she does, she will be convicted and sentenced to death. she is a serial compulsive liar. she has no credibility. there is no upside for the defense to put her on the stand. the jury will not believe anything she says -- >> not to explain the demeanor from the photographs that have been submitted by the prosecution -- >> there you go, there it is. >> looking rather cavalier when her child is missing? not to explain that? >> that's right. >> she can't explain

afterafterin cleveland and richard herman in las vegas. very interesting because they were compensated, right? they may have gotten a refund on your tickets because the seats they were going to be there were not there. now they say, i want lost income. avery, how do you argue this and get your way on this one? >> not successfully, i'll tell you that. >> i had a feeling you were going to say that. it's just mind-blowing to me. ultimately if the case goes to trial, everyday texans are going to have to decide if these people who spent thousands to come to dallas should get, among other things, lost income. they're asking the jury to put themselves in the rich people's shoes to award this and punitive damages and everything. look, the nfl and the cowboys' jerry jones did the right thing by offering money. a little bit too stringent, somewhere between actual loss and the fortune they're asking for is how this case will be -- it won't go to trial. it will be settled. >> but what's interesting, this argument is a rit solid one when you hear from

so that's the next challenge for everyone. >> all right, richard herman, avery friedman, thanks so muchee you. >>> all right, taking a very fast spin face to face with nascar driver jason leffler at the wheel. he told me just how close to the wall he gets going nearly 200 miles an hour. act my age? -why? -why? -why? [ female announcer ] we all age differently. roc® multi-correxion 4 zone moisturizer with roc®retinol and antioxidants. lines, wrinkles, and sun damage will fade. roc multi-correxion. correct what ages you. i thought it was over here... ♪ [car horn honks] our outback always gets us there... ... sometimes it just takes us a little longer to get back. ♪ >>> imagine driving up to 200 miles an hour 200 times around a racetrack over a ten-month, 36-race season. a lot of numbers, right? two nascar drivers i caught up with face to face said it beats working for a living. we went for a spin around the charlotte motor speedway to give me a more authentic view. so when you're practicing, what are you working on? are you working on speed, working on the banks, what are you trying to fo

richard herman joins us now from dallas to talk about this latest twist. made outside the court by the attorney for the parents. could this in any way impact the trielt? >> well, it could impact the trial if someone is feeding information surreptitiously to other jurors. theoretically, the jury has not heard any of this. but fred, this is an outrageous statement for the attorney for the parents to make while the daughter is facing the death penalty. i mean, i can't even believe the guy said that. of course, i trust gary. i know he's being honest and truthful. this is unbelievable, fred. >> let me read to you the statement coming from mark lipman in response to our gary tuchman's reporting saying this, maintains they do family not under any circumstances support any theory of the defense. they do not under any circumstances see the santions the state of florida is looking for, which is the death penalty. is this in your opinion saying too much? >> yes, saying way too much. their attorney should keep his mouth shut. he got his two minutes of fame in the headl

richard herman. thank you for joining us.defense yesterday after the defense asked an fbi agent about a paternity dna test on the 2-year-old child. what was that about? >> well the prosecutor was upset because george and lee had already been ruled out as potential fathers for caylee, so he felt the question was done to further advance the theory that baez is trying to show and put that in front of the jury yesterday, which baez effectively did. and too bad for the prosecutor. baez is fighting for her life. they're looking to kill her, suzanne. so that was okay, and that's how things are done in the trenches. if you think it was bad faith, how bad faith was it to put a smiling casey next to her daughter smiling and then all of a sudden have that face turn into a skeleton. that was ridiculous. it's all -- always fair in love and war here, and this is war. >> this is clearly war. do you think that that was a part of the strategy, a defense strategy to muddy the waters? >> well, that's what is going on with the forensic experts t

trial to legal attorneys -- civil rights attorney avery freedman and criminal defense attorney richard hermaney thought judge perry decided to cancel saturday's section. >> that's the $64,000 question, my belief was there was certain evidence the prosecution should have turned over. it goes to a material question of what the expert was about to say and therefore because it's a legal issue, we'll never know until the case goes to appeal, which it will. the bottom line is i've heard wild ideas about incompetentance on the party of counsel but the bottom line is fredericka, it probably sh something to do with the failure of turn over evidence. the case will proceed starting at 8:30 on monday. >> it could be anything from maybe there was an unexpected witness, maybe it meant a witness is no longer available or could it even be a problem with a juror? >> yeah, it could be a problem with a juror, that's one thing it could be. i don't think it's a witness issue. i understand there were like 15 witnesses in the hallway ready to go today. for the judge to stop everything, this is very serious, whateve

richard herman joins us from las vegas. first of all, i was watching this trial.riveted by this trial. day 16, we heard the forensics, how they found the girl. avery, how does that affect the jury, the graphic testimony? >> well, this is the most dramatic part of the trial. it is the crescendo that the prosecution is building to achieve their obligation of proving their case beyond a reasonable doubt. they've done it carefully, methodically, they've done it smart. but again, the skull, the idea of testimony, even the part about drawing the body into the woods where bones were gnawed by animals, obviously is having an effect. question, prejudice durable versus probative. probative prevails. it's an appropriate way to prosecute the case. >> talking about the garbage that was in the trunk of casey's car, first of all, what kind of mother drives around with garbage in her car? it's not even logical. they find traces of chloroform on it. why do you think they're spending so much time on this? >> well, one of the keys the the prosecution's case is casey put the child af

i talked about that possibility with our legal guys, avery friedman and richard herman. >> three-quarters of the jury already made their mind up. beyond that, imagine the cross examination if she takes the stand, fred, they'll ask her 500 lies that she said and they're going to get her to acknowledge those were all lies. then they go to summation and say, you can't believe she's lying to you now. there is no plus of putting her on the stand. forget about the incest. that's not a pass to be a pathological liar because you had incest as a kid. that's not going to fly. he's got to abandon that, concentrate on the forensics, where they're making a great day today. dr. spitz was phenomenal today. >> in speaking of which, the pictures we are seeing of casey anthony, has her head turned away because apparently they are showing forensic evidence, they're showing more photographs and so she is appearing to be a little unsettled by that. werner spitz, this pathologist said he describes this autopsy as shoddy. he says in fact, he testified just moments ago that the duct tape was placed on that skull

>>> earlier today i discussed the casey anthony case with our legal guys, avery friedman and richard hermany talked about the casey anthony's mother, cindy, who was testifying this week. >> cindy anthony has been a very powerful witness in this case, probably up to this point the most dramatic witness for the defense. the difficulty in what happened on thursday and friday is that i think cindy anthony understands her granddaughter is gone, her daughter faces lethal injection with the conviction and she has taken off on the -- in a wild blue yonder on this issue of chloroform and chlorophyl. >> she thought her dog was sick, had eaten some bamamboo, she we to look for a component. do you think the jury buys that? >> it is so odd. i don't think so. look, chloroform was deleted from the computer 84 times. and there was no inquiry about that with cindy anthony. it is really a preposterous part of the defense. again, we understand cindy. we understand the loss of her family. we understand the motive for not being forthright about that. but it just is not working. >> what is interesting then, rich

. >>> and earlier today i asked our legal guys richard herman and avery friedman about the graphic natureweek's testimony of anthony's trial and we talked about the impact it had on the jury. listen to our discussion. >> this is the most dramatic part of the trial, deb. the kre senn doe that the prosecution is building to achieve the obligation of proving the case beyond a reasonable doubt. they've done it carefully, methodically. they even done their part. the skull, the idea of testimony, even about drawing the body into the woods where bones were gnawed by animals obviously is having an effect. obviously prejudice versus probative, probative prevails. it's a way of prosecuting the case. >> they spent a lot of time about the garbage that was in the trunk of casey's car. first of all, what kind of mother drives around with garbage in her car? it's not even logical. they find traces of chloroform on it. why do you think they're spending so much time on this? >> well, one of the keys to the prosecution's case is casey put the child after she was dead in the trunk and drove around with her

i was talking to richard herman yesterday. >> today, we're not going to talk about relationships as you'rethere is a relationship involving -- a couple of relationships involving a couple of cases they're going to delve into. this one involves a relationship between mom and 2-year-old and how the mother -- the texas mom loses custody of this 2-year-old because of apparently being a little too abusive, maybe a lot abusiv abusive. there was also a five-year probation imposed. our legal guys are going to talk about that dynamic. and crimes and punishment. >> this goes beyond just spanking your child. >> yes. and we're going to talk about a relationship between nfl ticketholders during the super bowl last year and how they want a little bit more. it made me think about it. some people have a relationship with their tv set during nfl season. wouldn't that be you? >> i do. but this is a great time right now. my wife is taking advantage because i don't have a game to watch. the nba's done, no college game. >> maybe you'll be tuning in at 2:00, you want to hear from financial expert karen lee. she

joining us from austin texas with analysis of the case is criminal defense attorney, richard herman.ing us. has the prosecution made its case that anthony casey killed her 2-year-old daughter? >> i don't believe they have. this is a first degree intentional killing that they have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. we don't know if the duct tape was put on and that was used to kill her before she was dead or after. we don't know if chloroform was used to put her to death or released in the car through cleaning solvents and other things. we know from the evidence that casey was a great mother. we don't know anything bad about her being a bad mother. when you get up in the summation and tell the jury, if you don't know these answers or paused to hesitate this much, that's reasonable doubt and you must not convict. i don't believe the state has proven their case. >> what about the stories that have been told that don't seem to pan out, that she has been lying? does that account for anything here? >> yeah, that counts that she's a liar, but not a murderer. however, you are right, a lot o

so let's bring in richard herman, who is a criminal defense attorney and knows about all this stuff. this trial closely, and he joins me now. richard, this chemist was the one who took the air samples from casey anthony's trunk. the prosecution's expert used those same air samples, but testified earlier in the trial that there were shockingly high levels of chloroform. those were his words. so how do you think the jurors will make sense of all this? >> you know, randi, the defense is trying any which way they can to discredit the prosecution forensics experts. this gentleman gave testimony completely contrary to one of his mentors and associates, dr. vass. therefore, a jury is left with, who do i believe? the prosecution put on one expert with outstanding credentials. the defense put on another expert with outstanding credentials. who do i go with? who am i persuaded by? the judge will instruct these jurors, randi, they do not have to believe any expert testimony. they can base it on their own analysis of the case. experts are not definitive. i don't know where it's going to go. for

i want to bring in richard herman along with us here, criminal defense attorney with a lot of experience like this for some perspective. richard, casey anthony's defense called its first witness, a crime scene investigator and fbi expert. what was interesting was they did not find any blood or dna or casey's clothes or in her car or duct tape found on caylee's remains on her skull so how important is that for jurors, do you think, keeping in mind that prosecutors say caylee was suffocated? >> well, that's great, randi, no chloroform either in her clothes or room, but, you know, the intent is to put on defense experts to counter the prosecution experts and confuse the jury so that in summation you can say to the jury, hey, look, if you're confused, if you don't know which version of events took place, if you don't know if the duct tape went on before she died or after she died or if you don't know how she died or when she died or where she died, you know, that's reasonable doubt and, therefore, you must acquit. >> another thing they brought up today and a lot of us were surprised by this.

. >> all right, richard herman, thank you very much for following all of the twists and turns of thiscase. thank you, richard. >> the defense case hasn't even begun yet, suzanne. a lot more to come. >> okay, great. thank you. >>> the former head of the international monetary fund pleads not guilty to sexually assaulting a hotel housekeeper. dominique strauss-khan was arraigned earlier today in new york. when he arrived at the courthouse, he was greeted by chants of "shame on you" from members of a hotel housekeepers union. >> shame on you! shame on you! shame on you! shame on you! >> cnn's deborah feyerick is outside the courthouse in new york and with us live. deb, walk us through what happened outside this courtroom today. >> reporter: well, suzanne, i can tell you that the look on dominique strauss-khan's face when he heard those chants from the hotel workers, i don't think he even realized that they were hotel workers. but when he heard those chants and looked around and saw all of the media attention focused squarely at him, he looked almost startled. a little bit taken aback. he

richard herman, great to have you on.> president obama's plan to withdraw 33,000 surge troops from afghanistan. too many too fast? we'll talk about national security analyst peter bergen right after this break. as a manager, my team counts on me to stay focused. so i take one a day men's 50+ advantage. it's the only complete multivitamin with ginkgo to support memory and concentration. plus it supports heart health. [ bat cracks ] that's a hit. one a day men's. >>> as we mentioned, president obama is due to speak to u.s. soldiers at ft. drum, new york, at the bottom of the hour. we'll bring it to you live when it happens. joining us now from washington with more on the president's plan to withdraw 33,000 surge troops from afghanistan is our national security analyst peter bergen. peter, thanks for coming on the show. what developments on the ground in afghanistan do you think persuaded the president that he could now begin pulling out the surge troops, that this was the time? >> well, part of the calculus was certainly th