learned from roy cohn, either from actually involvement, or just watching roy cohn, because roy cohnas all about attack, attack, attack. >> yeah. yes, i do think he learned at his knee, if you will, and also at his father's knee. the difference between roy cohn's attack, attack, attack, and donald trump's. and this is by no means to defend roy cohn, is that roy cohn was a very bright guy. and he did everything in a highly calculated way, not in an impulsive way. >> it was thought out, it was planned? >> absolutely. he had figured out what worked. he was well educated. he was -- he was just plain smart. and he made those choices. he thought it worked. what he lacked, as trump lacks, was any underlying set of values or principles. so there was no -- you know, he was unimpeded. both cohn and trump were unimpeded by guilt or shame. >> but with trump, you're saying it's more gut? with roy cohn, it was more strategic? >> it's reactive. it's reactive. it's almost as if i could imagine that night that the hollywood access story was beginning to break and he was being surrounded by his aides

. >> jimmy: you play roy cohn. >> roy cohn., it looks like a a character from "a bug's life." [ laughter ] it was -- yeah. no, in short -- >> jimmy: this is a -- >> i'm sure he's smiling in hell right now, roy cohn. [ laughter ] throwing a cocktail party for hitler and mussolini. [ laughter ] telling them where they went wrong. yeah. roy cohn. i don't know. >> jimmy: how do you describe him? >> for those of you who don't know, he made his reputation as mainly as being chief counsel for joe mccarthy during the communist witch hunts. and somehow he survived that and came back to new york and became a very successful lawyer and power broker. >> jimmy: yeah. >> and -- but he was -- yes, he was a reprehensible, vile person. i mean, if you were a friend of his, he was very loyal and loving. but you wouldn't want to be on the wrong side of roy cohn. and certainly, how he's really known now is as trump's lawyer and mentor. he sort of -- that's what that article -- >> jimmy: right. >> which is a great article by frank rich, which talks

and roy cohn had been a has-been in america. ter the mccarthy hearings in 1954, he and mccarthy were in ruins, mccarthy soon died of alcoholism, but cohn staged a come back in new york city, so here we are, 25 or more years later, after mccarthy and he's the bell of the ball and the host of the festivities. >> one of the things that strikes me about him and we're looking at more of this footage, of the kind of person he was, and he was a real gangster type, and i don't use that word loosely, and he represents gangsters, but he also had that persona, he was not, okay, we're going to file a motion, sir, that may delay your -- it was much more than that. it i want to play for you, what he said i'll win in court when i can, and i'll win out of court the rest of the time, so get the hell out of my way, which is what trump liked about him. this is one of those examples where they did go up against the city and won. >> he believes you can fight city lal and i believe you can fight city hall and we both fought it together and got a $74 m

roy cohn, either from involvement.attack. yeah, yes, i do think he learned at his knee if you will. and at his father's knee and the difference between roy cohn's attack, and donald trump's and this is by no means to defend roy cohn, is that he is a bright guy. and he did everything in highly calculated way. >> it was thought out and planned. >> absolutely. he figured out what worked and well-educated and just plain smart. and he made those choices. what he lacked as trump lacks was any underlying set of values or principals. he was unimpeded by guilt or shame. >> it is reactive. almost as if i could imagine the hollywood access tape, oh, they want to pull my teeth with no n anesthetic. >> the times reported that raising the idea to friends of his maybe it was not his voice on the "access hollywood" tape. >> so interesting that wonderful writer named jonathan hague who has been on the show, and writes about morality. and what he says and i agree is that the impulse comes up. he calls it the elephant. the writer -- ride

this goes back to roy cohn, this is what he learned from him, this is what -- roy cohn believes you nevere an inch, you never apologize, you never concede anything and trump has lived by this his entire professional life, since he met roy cohn, why would he stop now since it got him to the white house. >> trump was ddoes one thing, wo you make of republicans on the hill who have worked with john mccain for years, refusing to say it to donald trump's face, he deserves an apology. >> i think it shows you how donald trump has changed washington, at least for a time and has changed american politics, what's interesting is that i have noticed something, we will hold anybody else to account for bad behavior for horrible things, get people fired, boycott for advertising, unless it's donald trump that's doing it. and he gets this weird pass right now. he gets a pass for anything he says, he gets a pass for anybody he insults. it's almost as if we have said -- you know who wrote this really well? george will in his takedown of mike pence. he excused trump saying well, he doesn't know any better, b

for fred trump, donald's father, and was, of all things, roy cohn's first cousin.e introduced donald to roy cohn and he said donald was really attracted, and he thinks the reason donald was attracted because roy it actually been indicted. roy was a tough guy and he had the proof of being tough. donald went for it and he's gone for that ever since. >> i thought today, when i saw the story about the doctor's office, i go to about the claim stormy daniels made, that in 2011, that a man just came up and sort of threatened her child in a parking lot in las vegas, and she understood it as connected to the fact that she was telling her story to a tabloid, and that in the absence of other context, that would seem an outlandish and preposterous story. >> right. >> what's your thinking when you see this today? >> that story is not the only story of its type. the president of media matters has a similar story, where he was approached by -- he was leading a campaign to -- >> a boycott. >> a boycott of trump's ties at macy's when he was approached by a man who he now recognizes

roy cohn was one of trump's first lawyers who was also a mob lawyer and who trump has sort of held up as the standard the kind a personal lawyer should be, defending him at all cost, even if it means sometimes crossing the law. i think it's important to remember the context this is going on. right now there is a special master in the michael cohen case reviewing eight boxes of documents, cell phones, blackberies and ipad to see whether there is evidence of wrongdoing in the trump organization by michael cohen at some point that could implicate trump. simply, we also learned that mueller last week in those 49 questions was just last week that one of the things he is looking at is trump's business relationships with russia. so rudy giuliani is confusing everybody about talking about stormy daniels. it's really you need a timeline to keep track of all of the differing explanations, but at the same time, there are these two very serious criminal investigation going on in which he is a key part of trump's defense team. >> this is a tidbit from "the wall street journal" article. it's sort o

he wants roy cohn back. he's so fond of the alluring idea of having a crook like cohn back. >> one thing he said about roy cohn, all i can tell you about him, he's done cruel things to people in protection of me. trump wants someone who will be a fighter. he wants somebody who would be willing to break the rules. >> he wants a fixer. >> exactly. but in sessions he got the polar opposite. >> a beckette sort of figure, he created somebody that would challenge him. michael avenatti, it the lawyer representing stormy daniels said that mike cohen's attorney today confirmed in court cohen kept tape recordings of his phone calls. he said those captured conversations between cohen and now president donald j. trump. >> i have every reason to believe that these recordings seized by the fbi which michael cohen and his attorneys have a copy of include record, between michael cohen and the president of the united states. as well as others. >> i know for a fact that donald trump is on at least one of these recordings. >>

look, we do know that he's spoken before about wanting his roy cohn or suggesting falsely that, you know, that eric holder would have been this way toward obama. but look, at that point he has no idea of what could come between him and sessions and could make sessions have to recuse as he did. so, when he is upset that sessions didn't give this general pledge, knowing nothing about what was in the future, he's saying that it has to be loyalty over everything no matter what legal requirements could come down the road. >> jonathan lemire? >> one, i'd like to point out one of the attorneys suggested he himself would recuse if he was in jeff sessions' position was rudy giuliani. he would have done the exact same thing. >> uh-huh. that was a different rudy, by the way, totally different rudy. that was the rudy that was still mad at donald trump. >> character assassination around the i want to be secretary of state campaign. >> there were certainly a lot of people who think -- people who threw themselves in front of this last july as reported to try to prevent the president from firing jeff se

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is we do not want the attorney general famously to have cried out in the oval office, where is my roy cohne of the most corrupt attorneys responsible in part -- >> john kennedy, back to ronald reagan. >> alan, let me finish. we don't want an attorney general whose primary loyalty is like a mafia consignaturliare. he was right to recuse. he's defended the mueller investigation. we swear an oath. you know this. with the constitution. >> he was right to recuse himself. he was dead wrong to withhold that information from the president the president is entitled to pick a loyalist. the senate is entitled to reject that choice. if you want to change the law and have the attorney general like in israel or england not appointed by the chief executive loyal to rule of law, change it. right now the attorney general is a member of the president's cabinet. he is entitled to have loyal people in his cabinet as the secretary of defence and secretary of labor and houses toernlt. sessions was dead wrong in withholding that information from the president which would have resulted in them not getting the job

the president is in the white house right now saying where is my roy cohn? i need a fixer. i need someone to fix this. he called the president a liar. he basically called michael cohen a liar. so the notion this is basically some strategy to get out ahead of the investigation that is not the truth. the idea the president signed off on this, that is not the truth. >> larry, i want to ask you this. one of the big talks points he wasn't under investigation. watch this. >> he fired comey because comey would not among other things say that he wasn't a target of the investigation. he's entitled to that. hillary clinton got that. and he couldn't get that. so he fired him and then he said i'm free of this guy. >> so doesn't that seem to contradict what he told lester holt? watch this. >> regardless of recommendation i was going to fire comey knowing there was no good time to do it. and, in fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself. i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a made up story. it's an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election tha

and so he has said memorably, where's my roy cohn? why isn't jeff sessions protecting me.wed this. these people were supposed to protect him, not uphold the constitution. and that's why we are where we are today. >> and michael, the obsession remains. donald trump still remains obsessed with comey. >> he does. it's incredible. not only that he has this obsession, but how willing he is to display it. and this need he has to articulate it. i think that, you know, among the many ways in which this was a terrible blunder, one was that he chose a guy who is really well spoken, telegenic, was able to put together a book that a lot of people find very compelling, did a media tour. comey is a terrible enemy to have made, not only to the substantive reasons that led to robert mueller, created this whole new category of possible wrongdoing, whether trump was trying to obstruct justice, but also creating in comey an incredibly compelling, tall, handsome, incredibly intelligent figure who is just, you know, letting it rip against the president. it's sort of a public relations nightmar

hint -- he and donald trump were both advised by roy cohn. the answer is next. "the 11th hour" back after this. >>> i don't think people should be staying in locker rooms, but i think it's good. you have to stand proudly for the national anthem. or you shouldn't be playing. you shouldn't be there. maybe you shouldn't be in the country. >> that was the president of the united states this morning condemning peaceful silent protests by members of the nfl players, suggesting that maybe they shouldn't be in this country at all. here's what jim messina, a former obama campaign manager, said to me about those comments this afternoon. >> this is the moment he became senator joseph mccarthy. literally saying, you can't be in my country if you don't do it the way i want you to do it. it is the craziest thing. >> here to talk about whether it's all that crazy at all, john mecham. his brand new book is "the soul of america: the battle for our better angels." how is that battle going, my friend? who is winning? >> it is a pitched and difficult battle. but we're going to win

it's state out of roy cohn, joe mccarthy's chief counsel's playbook, which is you just fight all thee. if you take a punch, you hit back twice as hard. that's certainly what mayor giuliani's doing out there. they're fighting a war on cable and in social media to get the base girded for battle. i think that's almost -- i would bet a lot of money that's what they're doing. they are pre-trying to delegitimize whatever director mueller may come up with. remember, there are also two tracks here. there's the criminal justice track that you've been discussing, and then there's the political track. gerald ford once said, high crime and misdemeanors is whatever a majority of house and senate decide it is at any given moment. so i hear a lot -- i'm sure you do too -- people who are despairing right now saying, well, congress isn't standing up. congress, i think, ultimately will, but it does take a long time. you know, the fabled moment where barry goldwater and hugh scott and john rhodes go down to the white house to tell tell nixon he doesn't have the support anymore, that was august 7, 1974,

. >> that's a great piece by frank rich in "new york magazine" about roy cohn. thanks for being with us tonight. >>> the breaking news tonight in "the washington post." robert mueller threatened to subpoena donald trump back in march to appear before a grand jury. robert costa broke this story. he's standing by to talk with us. >>> plus mueller's boss, rod rosenstein, warns the gop today the department of justice will not be extorted. >>> and the doctor who promised trump would be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency tells nbc news the president dictated that letter. and he tells the story of how trump's guys came in and seized the president's medical records. all of it as "the 11th hour" gets under way on a tuesday night. >>> good evening once again from our nbc news headquarters here in new york. not going to lie. we have a lot again tonight. day 467 of the trump administration, and tonight's breaking news comes from "the washington post." robert costa, who's standing by to join us in a bit, and his colleague carol lentic report that robert

on this show, we're going to hear from long serving trump lawyer that represented trump between roy cohn. lit g litigator, through two divorces, says he still talks to trump and his legal team about the russia probe and maintains attorney/client privilege with president trump. so why is goldberg speaking tonight? we'll get into that. does he think rudy guiliani is serving trump's interests or does he agree with the white house leaks that donald trump now needs better tv lawyers. that was a question at a recent white house briefing. >> one last question. >> do they still have confidence in rudy guiliani? >> yes, he is doing a fine job. >> trump lawyer, jay goldberg. thanks for being here. is rudy guiliani doing a good job for trump? >> i don't think so. i think he's a polarizing figure. people think he was a wonderful prosecutor, but he has no record managing a defense of someone who is accused of wrongdoing. to think that when he comes aboard, mueller will be frightened into cutting his investigation short doesn't really know the role he plays in law enforcement. >> do you think rudy und

roy cohn, and that debate, are we becoming that which we loathe, that which we oppose, is one that played out in the '50s and we're going through it again. >> all right. hey, jake, we -- unfortunately, the mike pence news shortened this segment a bit. i tell you what we'd like to do, a little bit of housekeeping. we're already over. it's not the first time, won't be the last time, we apologize, but we'd love to do a post-tape with you right after this, put it up online or maybe put it up on tomorrow's show. thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. thank you, guys, for watching us. the book is hellfire's club, jake tapper. >> stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika, thanks, joe. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning, we've got a lot to cover. starting with back on u.s. soil. the president greets three american detainees freed from north korea, expressing renewed hope that this is just the beginning. >> i'm very honored to help the three folks. the true honor is going to be if we have a victory in getting rid of nuclear weapons. >> and promising in

. >> you wonder when roy cohn is going to show up. >> he did earlier in the show.e michael cohen, borenstein, but think of sean spicer and various roles you have people almost like a ventriloquist and saying the words you know they were told to say by the president. why do they do it? one, the president requires. >> let's throw in nunes, chairman of the intelligence committee. these toadies. is that the only basis of a relationship with trump. >> try to think of somebody who has had a relationship with donald trump other than stormy daniel who's has come out the better for this. they all get chewed up along the line. >> up next, how did the republican party, the party that likes to call itself the law and order party find itself now three convicted felons running for office on the 201 ballot listed as republicans. they've all served time as felons. and they're all being put forth to the american people to represent them in the united states congress. you're watching "hardball." dear foremothers, your society was led by a woman, who governed thousands... commanded a

loyalty and an oath to the constitution of the united states so he has said memorably where's my roy cohnsessions protecting me? that's how he viewed this. these people were supposed to protect him, not uphold the constitution. and that's why we are where we are today. >> and the obsession remains, donald trump remains obsessed with comey. >> he does. it's inkrecredible, not only th he has this displegs bobsession need he has to display it. he chose a guy who is well spoken, telegenic, was able to put together a book a lot of people found very compelling, did a powerful media tour. comey is a terrible enemy to have made, not only for the substantive reasons that led to the appointment of robert mueller, created a whole new category of possible wrongdoing but also creating in comey this incredibly compelling tall handsome incredibly intelligence figure who is just letting it rip against the president. it's sort of a public relations nightmare. >> still out there trolling the president, one could argue. jeremy, i also note that mueller, rosenstein, sessions, all three remain on the job and

roy cohn wrote a very good book, or at least published -- i don't know if he wrote it -- on mccarthy in '68 in which he said, quite honestly, that he thought mccarthy's fall was a result of the american audiences' inability to sustain interest in hyperbole. that, ultimately, the audience got tired of the show. and i think, i firmly believe that president trump does not think of us as a country or a nation in the sense that august stipjanuary sense i mentioned. i think he thinks of us as an audience. and he's keeping us entertained, and he's trying to keep us in the seats. but i don't think it's going to happen. so you can get 34% of the people, which was that mccarthy approval rating, to say damn near anything. we're really looking at a center of about 20% to convince them that we're stronger the more generous we are. >> okay. we've got audience questions. thank you, these are really good questions. i'm going to whip through a few of them in our remaining time. here's one. it reads: it seems that in every generation there was a leader who represented our better angels; jfk, mlk, rfk,

sessions had recused, said, you know, he needed an attorney general -- to use his words -- like roy cohn. and he's referring to his longtime personal lawyer who was sort of a fixer for him in new york city when he was a young and up and coming real estate person. and he said that's the type of person that he envisioned at the top of the justice department for him. so you can see why he maybe didn't like jim comey as his attorney general, and why he doesn't like the idea of rod rosenstein, someone who he doesn't know, running the investigation. >> michael schmidt, our thanks to you for phoning in to us. we really appreciate it. to our viewers, we apologize for the quality of the phone connection tonight. moving on, though, the "times" report comes as president trump and his legal team are taking their very public p.r. campaign to discredit the mueller investigation to a new level. earlier tonight during a campaign-style rally in nashville, the president repeated the claim that someone had infiltrated his 2016 campaign. >> so how do you like the fact they had people infiltrating our campai

>> i think president trump is his own roy cohn.s as good as anyone he could get at manipulating the pieces on the chess board. >> you're getting some new information, some reporting on a potential new secretary of veterans affairs. the white house is looking for someone now that dr. ronny jackson is out of the picture. >> and that process is not going smoothly, to no surprise, of course. we saw this coming because before they picked dr. jackson to be the va secretary nominee before he withdrew, they struggled to find somebody to replace david shulkin. now they're really struggling to find who they're going to nominate next. of course this is a critical agency that is very important to not only the president but lawmakers on capitol hill as well. so far we are told by an administration official they have five people they are considering at the moment. one of those is the former florida congressman, jeff miller, who's scheduled to meet with the president this week to go over that. we know that the white house staff was meeting today

and roy cohn was in the book before donald trump became a candidate for president.certainly parts of mccar and qualities that mccarthy has that are resonant today, i may have underlined a bit here and there, because notnly did mccarthy do the same kind of thing that we see with president trump which is saying things doat are demonstrably false and smearing people whn't deserve to be smeared. but the world that mccarthy was in, republican politicians, democratic politicians, the media, didn't really know how to respond to this. so a lot of the mistakes that we saw in the 1950s with mccarthy are being repeated today. >> alcindor: when you talk about kind of the connections to present day washington, one thing that i was struck by was the in character he comes to washington, d.c. and you kind of feel like ok this guy is he has a good heart. r he's here lly make a difference. and then he starts doing some questionable things. how does that how does that mean that that really that thinking connects the present day washington and to maybe that response that we're having t

. >> that's a great piece by frank rich in "new york magazine" about roy cohn. thanks for being with us tonight. >>> "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. >> thanks, my friend. we had a whole show planned, guests booked, interviews researched. then news broke before showtime, yes. are you tired of winning yet? ahem. this happens a lot. it's not happened twice in two nights, which might be the kind of record i'm not interested in breaking. last night it was the new yo"th times" with this story which they posted literally as i sat down in my chair to do the show. i was reading it out loud on air for the first time, which is exciting in its own way. a list of nearly 50 questions that special counsel robert mueller reportedly wants to ask the president in the issue scandal. if he ever gets the president to sit down for an interview in that matter. now according to "the times" last night, that list was based on information that was relayed to the president's legal team during a meeting between mueller's office and the president's legal team in march. the preside

but one of the principle one is the red scare, after world r ii, the 1950s, is mccarthy era, and roy cohn was a figure, someone who co incidentally was a mentor to donald trump, was a figure. >> we hope itco'cidental. >> woodruff: yeah. in many ways the9 130s and early $1,950 are the most aknoll gauss periods. in the '30s we had a question about whether democratic capitalism would survive the decade. president roosevelt could have aculled the powers of a dictator if so inclined. in the middle of the '50s, joev mccarthy a speech saying i have in my hand the names o 205 communists. he didn't tweet it but might as well of, and it lasted about four years. what happened was he understood the media, howire services worked, he understood raid you, he understood television, he understood how to control the narrative. any of this soundiliar is this. >> woodruff: yeah. but what happens? the people in congress sto up, margaret committee, republican of maine, was one to have the first. they ended up censuring him andd they ep arguing america is most herself when we widen the definition of what we mea

hint -- he and donald trump were both advised by roy cohn. the answer is next.k after this. ooh ohh here we go, here we go. you got cut off there, what were you saying? oooo. oh no no. maybe that geico has been proudly serving the military for over 75 years? is that what you wanted to say? mhmmm. i have to say, you seemed a lot chattier on tv. geico. proudly serving the military for over 75 years. you ok back there, buddy? wwow, this is quite the busyo. place. right? this is the product for you. (vo) the new bissell crosswave pet pro vacuums and washes at the same time. it's better than ever for homes with pets. the first survivor of ais out there.sease and the alzheimer's association is going to make it happen. but we won't get there without you. visit alz.org to join the fight. what's going on? oh hey! ♪ that's it? yeah. that's it? everybody two seconds! "dear sebastian, after careful consideration of your application, it is with great pleasure that we offer our congratulations on your acceptance..." through the tuition assistance program, every day mcdonald's

. >> how can this not be obstruction of justice if the president tried to pick somebody like roy cohn and gets rid of the fbi director because he's investigating him, right? and then he continued to try to go after jeff sessions, his attorney general and say why didn't i get rid of you because you're supposed to protect me. you were supposed to obstruct justice for me. >> of course, he could ask, remove jeff sessions and put someone new in there. i mean, the congress has pretty much indicated they will not give you another attorney general if you do that and it would create a firestorm. if he wanted to, he could do that. one point about giuliani, someone who worked with him for a long time, right now he is acting as trump's lawyer defending his client with everything he's got. he's no longer an analyst of law enforcement. he's no longer a former prosecutor. he is a lawyer defending his client tooth and nail. so that's how we need to take his comments. >> on that point, michael, last word, question to you, how close are we to a collision to what looks to be the mounting evidence develo

but you look at the history of president trump, going back to roy cohn, the president has turned to attorneys who have combative personalities. giuliani when i spoke to him a few days ago for the story, he said he wants to be on offense. the president wants to be on offense. that's why giuliani went right to mueller's face in their first encounter, started questioning his credibility, bringing up former fbi director james comey. >> how do you square the two? you have rudy giuliani out there saying they're going from defense to offense, yet the gist of your piece that you coreported today is that mueller and his team of top flight lawyers are coming at him full steam. which is right? >> they're both right. mueller is coming at him full steam, chris, because he hasn't finished his investigation. he needs the president to sit down in front of him to figure out his intent on some of these key decisions as president. did the president have corrupt intent? criminal intent? he can't really finish his report on the president's conduct until he has that interview. >> does he expect to get the truth fr

because it is what is so foreign to -- it's what makes him say to reporters, i wanted my guys, my guy roy cohn. at this point he doesn't want to get it. i can take the argument when he first got there he didn't understand how the justice department is supposed to work. he didn't understand how he was supposed to be hands offer. people have told him how it's supposed to work. he continues to interfere. he wants to shut it down. he has bad intentions here. >> the president may not understand people like bob mueller. it just -- it doesn't make sense to some people that there is a bob mueller who doesn't care about politics and doesn't care about press, but cares only, joyce, about doing the right thing. that's sort of a foreign concept to some people, but it exists. >> some of us are pulling for him. >>> when we come back, more women, more hush money. that's the allegation for the attorney for stormy daniels. what does that mean for the president's former attorney and fixer? these birds once affected by oil are heading back home. thanks to dawn, rescue workers only trust dawn, because it's tough

he got exactly what he described to the "the new york times," he wants his guys, his roy cohn running justice. it was clear before he was sworn in that was the kind he wanted at the intelligence -- running the intelligence community, too. he thought they were straacked against him because they were briefing him on a dossier with incriminating information against him. these institutions are supposed to be built around and propelled forward by the rule of law. >> well, it's a morale killer. i can tell you in my conversations with members of those communities, they're sort of bewildered. they've never served in an environment like this where they've been attacked by the president. they serve because they want to protect the rule of law, they want to protect americans. they frankly dee spies politics. they don't want to be involved. it's not something they're interested in. they want to serve and uphold the rule of law and to be attacked like this, for their service to be politicized is something that hurts morale. >>> let me be clear. when the president does this, effectively what the pr

actually in the rule of law and you believe in a facial neutrality or aspire to that, and there's the roy cohndonald trump wing which, describes in this book as a kind of mafia family which is usually absolute loyalty to the boss. anybody can lie -- [talking over each other] i thought kennedy -- >> we don't need to -- [talking over each other] >> who the ig found lied. >> just like your client, right? he was convicted of lying, was any? >> would you like to about the case? would you like to about the case? i will tell you because comey doesn't get it right. >> he writes about james comey, writes about scooter libby. if you like to switch topics speedy first of all there thero underlying crime. i negotiate every single clause in jeopardy covert within five years, she was not. so there was no underlying crime whatsoever. the person who leaked the name was richard, targe, and comey and fitzgerald, official prosecutor, knew that from day one -- armor taj. yet they pursue the criminal system for almost five years of karl rove and scooter libby. i i do what you get to forget in which but to report s

wrote -- roy cohn wrote an interesting book about mccarthy boughth he said mccarthy anti-communism thepeople might have bought a car. a car thief fell -- mccarthy fell because he overstayed his welcome. he demanded too much popular attention and the audience got tired of the show. that is a cautionary lesson. host: line for republicans. go ahead. caller: i would like to talk about the fact that we are looking backwards so much. we seem to be talking about the bad.that trump is so that he is not doing us any good. with all of the problems we have today, what could we look forward to to make things better demagogueu call him a . just a lot of bad things. something that looks towards the future that us.d be better for host: what do you think that would be? caller: i think trump has done -- theings as far as best things he is doing is jobs, the interest rate in the business structure. corporations have a lot to do with what is going on. for some reason they would rather put business towards .hina than here i think that he is trying to bring jobs to the corporations but there's only someone

roy cohn, and that debate, are we becoming that which we loathe, that which we oppose, is one that playedand we're going through it again. >> all right. hey, jake, we -- unfortunately, the mike pence news shortened this segment a bit. i tell you what we'd like to do, a little bit of housekeeping. we're already over. it's not the first time, won't be the last time, we apologize, but we'd love to do a post-tape with you right after this, put it up online or maybe put it up on tomorrow's show. thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. thank you, guys, for watching us. the book is hellfire's club, jake tapper. >> stephanie ruhle picks up the coverage right now. >> thanks so much, mika, thanks, joe. hi there, i'm stephanie ruhle. this morning, we've got a

on a roy cohn strategy of fight fight fight. and it reality is doesn't really matter. because the reality is what's in the paper or what's on the screen. at this particular moment. and it goes back to the report in the "new york times," at the end of last year, that peter and maggie and other folks on the story, who said trump had said to the staff during the transition, let's treat every day as the episode of a tv show in which i vanquish my rivals. if you're busy vanquishing, to go to mike's point, you can't be busy building. >> what comes with that, elise, with being street fighters and counterpunchers is the truth often evaporates or the truth doesn't matter. in the course of counterpunching and fighting. so you have somebody like on his very first day as attorney, rudy giuliani going on "hannity." and in the course of trying to squash the idea there were campaign finance violation, explaining why it may be a violation to pay off stormy daniels. and the scope of what rudy giuliani thought his job was expanded. he was up on a stage spitting on a mock iran deal. pret