would that violate one of rumsfeld's rules? >> no, i don't think so. i don't know that he asked colin powell or condi rice or the vice president. he was the president. he was elected by the american people. we had frequent meetings and discussed various aspects of the situation. they worked very hard with the united nations to try to put additional pressure on saddam hussein so that he wouldn't continue to resist. i'm the president did what a president has to do. he made the decision and i assume that everyone in that group would have argued vehemently if they disagreed if no one did. >> how do you think people in the future will look back at this decision in iraq? >> is hard to know. you know, the road not traveled is always smoother than one looks at him and thinks, what if and when this? i think a little known fact is that gadhafi, the head of libya at that point at a very aggressive nuclear program underway. and when the united states went in and change the regime in iraq, gadhafi who had been working very hard on a nuclear program very high in the

c-span: so what's your reaction to the donald rumsfeld book?l, i think i have seen that or at least parts of that. you mean i know what i think about the book. i like it. c-span: i mean the way it's treated. >> guest: it sounds like it's hype. i guess they want people to watch their television show is why they do it that way. that's not -- the book has been characterized quite differently by other people as a very serious, historical book that people interested in history will read. c-span: what's your reaction in two cases they show you breaking down on camera. what's your reaction to seeing that? >> guest: well, you know, i was -- i don't know what my reaction is. it happened. my wife was terribly sick, almost died at one point, and we've -- my bad had alzheimer's and it's something that's hard to talk about or think about, and those are things that i'm not normally discussing, but she asked the questions, and i answered them as best i could. c-span: have you seen the review of the book in bloomberg business news? >> guest: no, i have not. c-

one is what is the story and why about donald rumsfeld the second time that the pentagon? >> of the devotee vitter or 20 years. >> journalists like to think the right the first draft of history i don't know that i use the word history with that first draft. i served a lot of years in government now live been out for four. i debated whether i should write a short book in the year and use my memory or whether i should digitize this incredible archive the light accumulated over my lifetime and start and played the confiding people into the faces of my life and the eventide been involved in it if you look at the acknowledgment section its many dozens and we would talk and transcribing and go back to the records and then i think if i've got that archived why shouldn't be digitized? and see if we can make it available to the reader? and i told that maybe for the first time we know are going to have available in e-book which means electronic books i told they didn't used to have those when i was a kid. and you can read the book gives you can look at the end notes and see the sour

would that violate one of rumsfeld's rules? >> no, i don't think so. i don't know that he asked colin powell or condi rice or the vice president. he was the president. he was elected by the american people. we had frequent meetings and discussed various aspects of the situation. they worked very hard with the united nations to try to put additional pressure on saddam hussein so that he wouldn't continue to resist. i'm the president did what a president has to do. he made the decision and i assume that everyone in that group would have argued vehemently if they disagreed if no one did. >> how do you think people in the future will look back at this decision in iraq? >> is hard to know. you know, the road not traveled is always smoother than one looks at him and thinks, what if and when this? i think a little known fact is that gadhafi, the head of libya at that point at a very aggressive nuclear program underway. and when the united states went in and change the regime in iraq, gadhafi who had been working very hard on a nuclear program very high in the

objective of the program so the investigation was unable to prove criminal activity on the part of rumsfeld or the pentagon does that mean the case is closed and just how cozy is our mainstream news media and our war machine anyway karl frisch partner bullfight strategies of cinema syndicated columnist john is now to talk more about this issue karl welcome back thanks tom good to have you here is this this is the kind of thing you'd expect to see coming out of a talent area and state how did this happen in the united states i mean this think back many eons ago this is something we don't really talk about in this country anymore about this thing called the bush administration you may have heard of it. they had a long running pattern even before we knew about this military analysts fiasco you recall that they were paying people like armstrong williams and maggie gallagher to write on various issues for them so as if they were isn't a journalist right there is a there was a long running web of propaganda throughout the bush administration so when david barstow writes the front page it was a fr

because he thought correctly if donald rumsfeld who was charged w. bush's defense secretary with people down and not showing strength in terms of their own positions. rumsfeld is one of these people that gained power but everybody else. this the same george bundy used to get powered by enhancing other people and so they would work together. anyway, -- >> how did general john -- >> okay. obama found himself not involved in the national security and if he did he wanted to see a senior person dealing with the secretary and he wasn't particularly strong. avaya still. somebody appointed a cabinet positions but he was already waiting to come to him rather than being street he was the one and so he wasn't -- the cyclist wanted different three they wanted to structure the normal president took his eyes off as an interesting structure. but obama was said miller ken st that he lacked to have people around for what they contribute to the discussion to look their office was. it didn't serve that need intelligence was very formal. in tehran who have better relati

would that violate one of rumsfeld's rules? >> no, i don't think so. i don't know that he asked colin powell or condi rice or the vice president. he was the president. he was elected by the american people. we had frequent meetings and discussed various aspects of the situation. they worked very hard with the united nations to try to put additional pressure on saddam hussein so that he wouldn't continue to resist. i'm the president did what a president has to do. he made the decision and i assume that everyone in that group would have argued vehemently if they disagreed if no one did. >> how do you think people in the future will look back at this decision in iraq? >> is hard to know. you know, the road not traveled is always smoother than one looks at him and thinks, what if and when this? i think a little known fact is that gadhafi, the head of libya at that point at a very aggressive nuclear program underway. and when the united states went in and change the regime in iraq, gadhafi who had been working very hard on a nuclear program very high in the

don rumsfeld had been a major champion of my career.ad worked with dick cheney when he was defense secretary and i was on the national security council. i would say when i was national security advisor it is a position in which are you coordinating, putting forward the honest views of another is the president can decide. when i was secretary of state i carried a different kind of weight. i had no trouble playing that role because i was female and black. i'd been the same female and black person as national security advisor. and so if you do the controlled experiment, i don't think race and gender are much of an explanation here. i think what you are dealing with is people with strong views with differences, policy differences, not personal ones. and to the degree that when people are under pressure, personalities are a little bit more than they otherwise might be. maybe there was a little bit of that, too. >> you have described donald rumsfeld, the former defense secretary, as a grumpy friend. how would you describe your relationship wi

some of which was so iconic when it happened, the rumsfeld known/unknown moment. the bush and the flight suit on the deck of mission accomplished. some of it was remarkable as a staff. we were sifting through a timeline to put together in the video of all these moments, the bombing of the golden dome in samaria which was the iconic moment that inaugurated the civil war, the shooting by the blackwater guards that had sort of completely faded in memory. i am interested in your reactions, phyllis. >> well, it is difficult to remember some of it. but i think that for me there were two things that really stood out. one was remembering the price that iraqis paid. i was glad there was mention of how many people were dying on a daily basis. the other was something that david kay said. one of the two main weapons inspectors in iraq. he came back to tell the security council that there was no evidence of weapons of mass destruction and we needed a couple more weeks to confirm and finish our job. he said, we were all wrong. i kept thinking, watching that, we weren't all wron

but i still feel washington is a place where people talk to each other and you can have donald rumsfeld and patrick lay hi in the same room once in a while. and i think he wanted to li in that world where we could maybe disagree but come up with the best solutions to today's problems. >> we found some video in our archive of your father back in 1989 talking to a group of interns at the washington center here. and we use this before we show some of your documentary, just to establish what he looked like and what he sounded like. >> sure. >> and bobby kennedy lived near by and he drove by the sign one day and he said this is the silliest thing i've ever seen. here's a seerk rhett intelligence agency with a great -- secret sign. for god sake at least take the sign down. and we took the sign down. he did have quite a lot of influence. and for 15 years we pretend that had that big building wasn't there. even though every pilot on his way out of national airport used it as a checkpoint. turn left at c.i.a. because it was so obvious. >> what did you see there? >> what i see there is his brutal

rumsfeld has written pretty extensively about and i basically took the approach that i could focus on a few things and what i really wanted to focus on was the surge and the counter insurgency doctrine that accompanied the surge that we put in place at the beginning of a seven so there is a lot written about that in my book but i didn't spend a lot of time going back over what this department did with respect to managing the situation in iraq or with the pentagon did outside of normal military activities to speed but if you read the book and you talk to other people talked to other people on your staff in elsewhere where you said you were asking questions about the u.s. military strategy and iraq. during those years the is obviously were not going well ask the tough questions what is our strategy, do we know how to win, why do we doing the same thing? is the training effect of? and i guess the interest on a and i guess the interest on a personal level when did you start asking those questions? >> on a personal level i thought now is as good as a time of any. you have to make choices a

then i started thinking well, i better talk to people like james schlessinger, don rumsfeld, generals, admirals. how am i going to do that. >> and james shlessing jer had been c.i.a. director before my father. >> and brent the national security advisor. >> you can call them up and say hi, carl, maybe. so i took two days to write each of those e-mails attracting them in. so i started interviewing people. i thought i think i'll interview my mother. and then the whole movie changed because she brought the human element, she brought the underneath, what are we doing? what is she doing? she's keeping him to a high moral standard. she referred to the c.i.a. as catholics in action just flike the f.b.i., especially in the early years, a lot of action because they have a moral compassion. and they certainly operate from a moral point of view. ready h john moral, is pat of my mind set. i went to gonzaga -- in d.c. and i went to georgetown. so i was surrounded by them. and they made you think. we were takeen as boys. is this legal? should they be here without a permit? is there a greater cause a

so in her case, it was dick cheney, the vice president; colin powell, sect of state, and donald rumsfeld, secretary of defense. really different personalities. really strong personalities. a lot of tension in the room, at you will read in this book, but she brought a consensus, and under her leadership, and the president's leadership, they made some of the most important decisions of this century. and because of that great ability to team-build. now, she also used that skill as secretary of state and dealt with some really tough problems. with palestine and israel on one hand. then pakistan and india on another. and then day after day, countries that had really diverse and different fundamental differences and, again no one was better in bringing everybody together than dr. condoleezza rice. at age 38, secretary rice was named the provost at stanford, as you heard, that's our alma mater. she was the first woman, the first minority, and the youngest provost in stanford's history. she showed exceptional leadership skills at stanford, that since that time universities all over the country a

her case, it was dick cheney, the vice president, colin powell, the secretary of state, and don rumsfeld, secretary of defense. really different personalities, really strong personalities, a lot of tension in the room, as you will read in this book, but she brought a consensus, and under her leadership, and the president's leadership, they made some of the most important decisions of this century, and because of that great ability to team-build. now, she also used that skill as secretary of state. and dealt with some really tough problems, with palestine and israel on one hand, and then it was pakistan and india on another. and then day after day, countries that had really diverse and different fundamental differences -- again, no one was better at bringing everybody together than dr. condoleezza rice. at age 38, secretary rice was named the provost at stanford, and as you heard, that's our alma mater. she was the first woman, the first minority, and the youngest provost in stanford's history. she showed exceptional leadership skills at stanford, and since that time universities all over

donald rumsfeld plan the invasion, but admits that it changed america. >> the fact that the war did noto well after somsaddam was remd has made americans for the time being more reluctant to consider military action. as long as no military action of any significance is required, that is fine. but if our obligations get triggered and there is a question of our reliability as an ally, that is not find. >> for some, the price is much more personal. nearly 4500 american troops have been killed in iraq more than 100,000 iraqis died in the war. and the operation has cost the united states $1 trillion. many americans ask for what? he went to iraq wanted to change the world and left believing that war is never the answer. >> i lost my most recent front to suicide in september of this year. this war and the horrors and the scars will be with us, the soldiers who served and the iraqis who endured, for a very long time to come here >> -- for a long time to come. >> the war he promised to end is over. >> now to the gulf of mexico where, for the first time since last year's deep water horizon disast

it was all the non-combatants -- paul wolfowitz, donald rumsfeld, george bush, and dick cheney -- who were the champions of this war, sadly. >> and it was the generals on the ground, the ones who are there right now, who had asked the president to leave residual american force, around 20,000 troops. remember, we have had forces in there the last year and half in and non-combat role. simply the presence of americans filled a vacuum. it helped to mediate between the abs in the north and kept the peace between shiites and sunnis. nobody has commented on the amazing coincidence that this happened at two days after the last americans leave. this is a direct result of the decision by the president, against the advice of the generals on the ground. the surge succeeded, al qaeda had been defeated, and even maliki produce and defeated the shiite militias, who are out resea and -- are now resurgent. we had the beginnings of a national government, and what we needed was continuity. as soon as it was removed gratuitously, all the unraveling has begun. >> most americans want to believe this is beh

i can remember the president asking, don rumsfeld, what if we do if he get as lucky shot and brings down an american pilot? we were really in a state of suspended hostilities with iraq, not in a state of peace with iraq. in 1998 president clinton had actually launched cruise missiles against iraq and he, the inspectors were supposed to be keeping his weapons of mass destruction programs under control were left, the country. so he was different for having dragged region into war several times including us. the fact he was continuing, we believed to build weapons of mass destruction and according to the intelligence agencies, had reconstitution the his chemical weapons. reconstituted his biological weapons and was on his way to reconstituting his nuclear programs. he tried to sass gnat george h.w. bush. he was shooting at our aircraft. he put 400,000 people in mass graves. he was considered the biggest threat in the middle east. as bad as north korea was, as bad was iran was, there was not a category like iraq where there were 16 u.n. security council resolutions that said he was a peace t

but i still feel like washington is a place you can talk and you could have donald rumsfeld and patrick leahy once in a while in the same world and he wanted to have that world where we could disagree but come up with the best solutions to today's problems. host: we found video in our archive of your father back in anyo 1989 talking to interns and we used this before we show the documentary to establish what he looked like and what he sounded like. guest: sure. >> bobby kennedy lived nearby and drove by this sign and came am and said this is a the silliest things. here is the secret intelligence agency with a big sign pointing to it. for god's sake at least take the sign down. we took it down. he did have quite a lot of influence. for 15 years we pretended that that big building wasn't there. even though every pilot on his way out of national airport used it as a check point, turn hrfrt at c.i.a. because it was so obvious. host: what did you see there? you knew him. guest: what i see there is brutal honesty. he is not afraid. he is not afraid of you physically certainly. he is just not

donald rumsfeld plan the invasion but acknowledges it has changed america. >> the fact that the war did not go well after said dahmer got removed -- after some -- after saddam got removed has made americans, at least for the time being, more reluctant to consider military action. if no military action of significance is required, that is fine, but if our obligations get triggered, and there is a question of our reliability as an ally, that is not fine. >> for some, the price is very much more personal. nearly 4500 american troops have been killed in iraq. more than 100,000 iraqis have died in war, and the occupation has cost the united states $1 trillion. many americans ask -- for what? max left wanting to change the world and left believing war is never the answer. >> i lost a friend to suicide in september of this year. this war and the horrors and scars will be with us, the soldiers who served and the iraqis who endured, for a long time to come. and the president can go into an election without quibbles or caveat, the war he promised to end is over. >> for more on the state of iraq a

donald rumsfeld helped plan the invasion but acknowledged it has changed america. >> the fact that the war did not go well after saddam hussein got removed has, i think, made america, at least for the time being, more reluctant to consider military action. as long as no military action of significant is required, that is fine, but if our obligations and it triggered, -- get triggered, and there is a question of our reliability as an ally, that is not fine. >> for some, the price is more personal. nearly 4500 american troops have been killed in iraq, and more than 100,000 iraqis have died in the war. it cost america one trillion dollars, and many ask, "for what?" one went into iraq looking to change the world, and left believing that war is never the answer. >> an attack in 2004. i lost my most recent friend to suicide in september this year. the scars and the horrors will be with us and for the iraqis who endured for a very long time to come. >> it means the president can go into an election without put jon are caveats. the war he promised to end is over. bbc news, north carolina. >> n

. >>> a lawsuit filed last year against former defense secretary donald rumsfeld and robert gates has been dismissed. it excused the two men of fostering a culture which allows rapists to succeed in the military. the lawsuit was filed by 28 military members and veterans who say they were punished for filing complaints against their attackers. two of the accusers said they were raped while deployed and the attacks were videotaped and photographed. when reading his decision, judge o'grady said while the allegations are troubling, the judiciary cannot intervene in military discipline and an appeal is expect. >>> later today, the senate is expected to approve a $662 billion military funding bill. the same bill was approved last night in the house. it provides money from the men and women of the military as well as the weapons systems and the millions of jobs they generate. the bill also ensures the president can prosecute terror suspects in the civilian justice system. >> the republican presidential candidate go ahead to head tonight in their final debate together before the iowa caucuses

former secretary of defense rumsfeld. showed the were you know can cause problems and missions and serious problems and. in the appendix of what kind of an interrogation method this country is doing great now when they say we've got to have medical experts standing by these methods are dangerous and i want to add a. third interrupt you there but basically the arguments proponents of torture. and their arguments are all in the name of safety does the u.s. need to go this route this route in order to stay safe around terrorist threats. well i'm not a consultant of the american government service perhaps but. again this is a question it's like is it makes no sense the united states has already signed a treaty invention against torture with dozens and dozens of other companies says there is never in your views or torture. it doesn't matter if there's a ticking time bomb or not this is the treaty signed by the united states government and in fact when people and experts have looked at things like that taking time bomb scenario

and it's right next to a book about donald rumsfeld-- yep it's a completely random putaway. >> reporter: kreece fuchs is one of better world's three co- founders. the trio of former university of notre dame students hatched the idea for the company in their dorm. they found they could make more money selling their used textbooks over the internet than back to the school bookstore. >> over the course of that summer, after i graduated, i would get an email saying "your book sold" and i would run to the post office and ship the book and, you know, a few days later i sold another book. >> reporter: last year, better world made about $55 million buying and selling new and used books. the company donated roughly $2 million to literacy programs and to libraries which give better world their unwanted inventories. the public library in evanston, illinois, has netted about $4,600 over the past couple of years for the 20,000 books it discarded. >> these books will end up in the hands of people instead of landfills. so, it's really not for the money, i would say. it's just a couple thousand dollars

and it's right next to a book about donald rumsfeld-- yep it's a completely random putaway. >> reporter: kreece fuchs is one of bouter world's three co- founders. the trio of former university of notre dame students hatched the idea for the company in their do.rl they found ty coulhemake more money selling their used textbooks over the internet than back to the school bookstore. >> over the course of that summer, after i graduated, i would get an email saying "your book sold" and i would run to the post office and ship the book and, you know, a few days later i sold another book. >> reporter: last year, better world made about $55 million buying and selling new and used books. the company donated roughly $2 million to literacy programs and to libraries which give better world their unwanted inventories. the public library in evanston, illinois, has netted about $4,600 over the past couple of years for the 20,000 books it discarded. >> these books will end up in the hands of people instead of landfills. so, it's really not for the money, i would say. it's just a couple thousand dollars a

and it's right next to a book about donald rumsfeld-- yep it's a completely random putaway. >> reporter: kreece fuchs is one of better world's three co- founders. the trio of former university of notre dame students hatched the idea for the company in their dorm. they found they could make more money selling their used textbooks over the internet than back to the school bookstore. >> over the course of that summer, after i graduated, i would get an email saying "your book sold" and i would run to the post office and ship the book and, you know, a few days later i sold another book. >> reporter: last year, better world made about $55 million buying and selling new and used books. the company donated roughly $2 million to literacy programs and to libraries which give better world their unwanted inventories. the public library in evanston, illinois, has netted about $4,600 over the past couple of years for the 20,000 books it discarded. >> these books will end up in the hands of people instead of landfills. so, it's really not for the money, i would say. it's just a couple thousand dollars

refusing to be chairman of the joint chiefs under dark rum so because he thought correctly that of rumsfeld which was george h. w. bush's secretary of defense was basically pounding people down and not letting member show any strength in terms of their own position. others like pundits and to get power by enhancing other people. anyway @booktv sorry. >> host: added zero jones. >> guest: myself, a prisoner was not deeply involved one senior person, deal with military since he was not particularly strong. in any way. if you believe bob woodward's story, and i do, he finally told obama, not a good staff member. a point me to a cabinet position he was already waiting for issues to come to have to figure out rather than make sure he was the one who brought the issues to the present. and he would -- and so he was not -- his style was to lose different. he wanted to structure a former process that no present other than eisenhower has been interested in structuring. obama was similar to kennedy in the sense that he was cerebral, like to have people around, interested more in people who could contri

could almost that without any question of intent be a peek directed at president bush or cheney or rumsfeldpeople i'd say who were indispensable to recruiting for al qaeda and that's still true in our occupation of iraq and in our escalation of get is that certainly not charging. the president or any of these people with intending to aid the enemy that if you're going to ignore the question it is this charge has and it is i say i say it applies to them better than it does to that and so that's an absurd shot on the question of changing their opinion people who think that he was wrong simply to disobey regulations whatever is intended and whatever the impact those people probably could not change their opinion to meet him just as negative opinion and i live with that. i think there are they're mistaken but that's their intitled to that opinion the fact is though that in the middle east i'm sure that he. it is not bradley manning but the source of the wiki leaks documents whatever that is is very much appreciated in tunisia and egypt the revelation that the american government was well aware

secretary of defense donald rumsfeld and then the other vector by which north korea supposedly became a nuclear armed nation was through the a.q. khan network which we now know through a series of whistleblowers and courtroom document revelations and leaked documents that that a.q. khan network was infested from top to bottom with cia and other assets of the american intelligence so it's in a strange way america has been deeply involved with the nuclear arming of north korea and it it plays an very interesting counterpoint to be hysteria that we see going on over the possibility that iran among one day develop a nuclear weapon well here we have a nuclear armed state that's been a law being missiles over our head here in japan for years now and threatening the entire region and yet they've just walked away from those talks for the last two years so it plays a very strange role in the stage in relation to right now well just returning seeing it so admittedly what's happened. in official reaction from washington is that it is committed to stability on the korean peninsula. and to the fre

to the young and very special secretary of defense, donald rumsfeld.trike against the then director of central intelligence, george herbert walker bush, for low balling even this number. 11%e bush's cia estimated to 13%, rumsfeld felt it was more like 13% to 15%. these two men, whose pitchers would hold even bigger jobs, -- whose futures would hold even bigger jobs, had a round -- a rather minimum regard for each other. the president tried to mediate, but soon his administration, and with it, this angry, heated exchange ended. but looking back, we can now see that they're hot dispute, 11% to 30% vs. 13% to 15%, is rather comical. upon opening up the kremlin kimono, we found the true figures were closer to 30%, or even 40% of gnp. both of bush and the rumsfeld the estimates were off by more than a factor of two. again, to be fair, in the forest of analysis on soviet military spending, like much of the intelligence, there is an epistemological difficulty. how do we know anything for sure? like everything important in life, william shakespeare and the str

. >> it is like donald rumsfeld syndrome. >> yes, i think he is very arrogant. americans love confidence, but they hate errogance. >> i disagree. he says he is the smartest guy in the room. that's one room. if he said, i am the smartest guy in the house. >> or in every room. >> he says it regardless of what room he is in. >> that's right. regardless of who is in it. >> what if the room is empty? then he is being modest. >> i would agree. i think in most rooms he is the smartest guy. i think there has to be a way you can be the smartest guy in the room and not let everyone know you know you are. so some of that errogance has to be toned down. remember, barack obama is super arrogant. you want somebody that is the opposite, down to earth. >> barack got swag. you are confusing the two between errogance and swagger. he has swag, baby girl. >> unemployment is at 9%. >> we live in the same building. don't make it awkward when i have to see you. >> what's that address again? >> you know it. >> sherrod, you said republicans need to grow their own obama. is this why you

donald rumsfeld at 8:00 eastern.n the former vice president, dick cheney, whose book is called "in my time." than condoleezza rice, with a memoir of her years in washington. now through friday on c-span 3, american history television. tonight, a look at the presidency. we will hear from white house photographers. also, the unveiling of a ronald reagan statute outside of washington. a look at white house paintings. a discussion on the lbj 1964 television ad, showing a girl picking petals from a daisy followed by a nuclear explosion. and a tour of the watergate exhibit at the net -- richard nixon presidential library. >> have you tried the free c- span radio app? here's what users are saying. >> the audio quality is convincingly clear. insanely great deal, considering it is also free. it took me about 10 seconds to learn how to use it. >> anytime, anywhere, get streaming audio of c-span radio. including live coverage of congress. you can listen to our interview programs. c-span, available wherever you are. >> middle sc

for saddam hussein for a long time are prominent members of the bush and administration and demint rumsfeld deputy secretary paul wolfowitz. the written a letter to president clinton in 1998 saying the only viable policy in that part of the world was to take up saddam hussein forcefully. it was a gift in the lap of these ideologue's and they immediately began intimating that the anthrax attacks were so house sponsored by saddam hussein or al qaeda or perhaps both interests. the third major policy consequence that slowed from the letter attack was something called project by new shield which provided billions for research into the development of new medical product vaccines and countermeasures that may make us safer in the evin to god forbid of another biological attack but project biofuel was accompanied by the dramatic expansion of laboratories in the country at great expense to the country and this means 11,000 or more scientists and technicians are being brought into this word handling these highly portable lethal pathogens without the concerted control the would give assurance whether t