is the china russia alliance made it america? ah, ah, cross talking russia china relations. i'm joined by my guess lynch and she yang in geneva. he is a professor of international history and politics at the graduate institute of international and development studies engineer. but in israel we have john gong. he is a professor at the university of international business in economics. and here in moscow were joined by alexander luke, and he is head of the department of international relations at the higher school of economics, or tell me in cross talk roles. and in fact, that means you can jump in anytime you want. and i always appreciated when she and jenny, but let me go to you 1st year. i've been observing it for many, many years, the growing relationship closer, relationship that russia and china had. and it was, you know, a few years ago it was murmurings people met and mentioned in western media. and now all of a sudden they're in panic mode is if this suddenly happened. well, this hasn't suddenly happened. it's been happening for a very long time time, and this, russia

how problematic it is for russia and china to be allies. i don't see it at all because russia and china reject this rules based order. nonsense. they look at international law because rules based order. it's all the rules are made in washington and basing. and moscow said that's not true. and we can say no. go ahead in geneva. well, yes, i do think that social looking is right on that. they are talking about the imaginary china and the russia. so therefore, they imagine the russia and the china still somehow inferior to too large. you can see the western values on they call the universal value, which is ironic because the, the i always is, i written the books criticising the concept of universal value. the original meaning of universal value means catholicism in the middle ages. i think even catholicism split into 2 in the end. right. so yes, but americans, in particular the, that, the, the policy towards attitudes was russia and china is driven primarily by a button gallery and thinking, which is so called the decline, the west thinking it'

interests to drive russia closer to china in asia. just military, the two countries have their combined military power much more efficient than one by one. i would say russia has been very careful. it has been strong for a very long time. now this antagonism we have in the russia and u.s. relations makes russia think that everything the u.s. has been doing in the indo pacific is against russia which is driving russia even more toward china. in these twolt blocks which i do not think would be beneficial for the u.s. or for russia. again, i'm not sure anything is possible unless the relations normalized. logic, iting to this would be better to have more normal working level dialogues. pullingthink that is russia from china or china from russia. russia and china are not anti-russian or anti-china actions like balancing. however, some might be more calibrated so there might be some reforms that will not be supporting china either that some be supporting order.tric since russia is one of the powers, it could be something that might also con

interests to drive russia closer to china in asia. just military, the two countries combined military power much more efficient than one by one. i would say russia has been very careful. it has been strong for a very long time. antagonism we have in the russia and u.s. relations think thata everything the u.s. has been doing -- >> we're going to break away from the csis event briefly to go live to the house of representatives. we expect this to be a short session. we will come back to this when it is done. the speerroempo: the hou will be in ode the chairlaysore thuse a coucaon from the speaker. the er: e spear's ros, washington, c. may4, 2019. i herebypin the honorable james p. mcgovern t actas speaker pro temre on is day. signed, nancy losispeer of the house of presentatives. the speakepr tre: the prayer will be offered by o chaplain, fther croy. aain cooy: let us pry. gracious god, we give yo thks for givings anothe day. heembers of is peoe' house havleft for the memoal darece. they eet the wth their

one, china and russia had a high degree of antagonism. there was an acute chinese fear of russian attacks on china, most notably captured in the 1969 conflict. two, china was economically and militarily weak in 1972. there was a group of leaders, not now per se -- not mao per se, who was interested in modernizing and new aligning with the west was going to be key. the two proximate factors that were probably most influential in facilitating the success of that rep. sherrill: -- that rapprochement could not be more different today. >> let me turn to andrea, angela, then mike and shifting our lands to looking at this from the vantage point of moscow . let me throw a couple of questions out. it would be helpful to get access wins on to what extent china's support february 4 have played into moscow's calculations. what might moscow be expecting from beijing moving forward? andrea, those questions and others that you would like to respond to as it pertains to unfolding events? >> great to be on this panel. i agree with both evan and manoj that

and basically russia -- whatever china does with the states. russia -- well, what china is doing -- there are no real resources to put up here in this region. and -- what actions [indiscernible] russia is trying to do what it can. this should be part of the picture. russia is interested in how to save russia and euro economic relations. and the economic partnership it has with many countries in the european union. could -- the neal arms treaty? as i understand, russia has chinased the topic with the-- how have we not seen -- until the chinese part? talks with china -- step with chinese partners. on.crisis is going russia is going forward to. [indiscernible] i do not see that. russia would criticize china in not joining the treaty although russia would like to update new arms control and regime -- as far as i am concerts. our military experts also to be part of the foreman. so i guess this is the picture that we have now and russia , russiave -- well thinks that it would be better for everyone if we negotiates but ate arms control this stage ther

rights and democracy opposing that are radical regimes of russia and china. has joined with the eu and other countries to pushback multilaterally on the kinds of practices that we see in russia and china. it is a scary world where slave labor and tyranny become routine. it is important that the west opposed that. we can do that to braddock -- we can do that diplomatic enter consensusbuilding with russia and china if they will have it but if they persist in their ways, there is going to be a cost to pay for them. the u.s. and the west will also pay a cost. anchor: is china worried about that cost? >> i don't think china needs to worry about what the americans are pushing at the moment. in china, it has a leader who is incredibly confident in himself and in the direction of which tribal -- of which china is going. they have good questions about that direction is the good one, but he is very confident that he is right. he is not worried about the american pushback. he is devoting resources, redirecting the chinese economy to counter what the americans are doing.

. >> next a discussion on the china-russia relationship and u.s. foreign policy and the rest of the world. speakers touch on china and russia's presence in africa, the middle east and latin america. the council on foreign relations hosted this hour and 45 minute symposium. you. >> good morning, everybody. thanks for braving the streets of washington, d.c. after two days of snow to make it this morning. i am rush doshi, fellow for asia studies here at the council. we are excited to welcome you for what i think will be a fantastic symposium on the china-russia relationship. i want to start that by saying today's part is the inaugural event of the china 360 program, one of the four programs under the china strategy initiative we launched last year. the guiden questions are what is china doing around the world and how are countries responding to china's growing global profile? one of the most important questions when you think about china's global ambitions, its behavior is its relationship with russia, which is why that will be our critical focus today

russia is dependent on china in ways that china is not dependent on russia. but who is standing up for this alternative vision and pushing back most vigorously against the west? it is russia, not china. in that respect, it is not clear to me that they see themselves as russian partners and at some point russian greatness will not allow us to sustain that posture. bay: we have a question in coming from in from a member online. >> we will take the next question from robert hormetz. >> i would like to follow-up up richard's point on the trade issue. because one of the most important elements in trying to contain this grouping particularly in china, and to get other countries who you mentioned might be more attracted to china because of trade relations, the united states needs to have a coherent trade policy with countries other than the g7 oecd countries , which means a number of the emerging markets, global south. the problem is, in this administration, which you would have thought would have been inclined in that direction, it has been the opposite. like the p

s. europe and their allies in the west often portray russia and china is threats to global peace. they cite examples including russia's troop build up along the border with ukraine. and chinese crackdown on human rights in hong kong and sion yang but moscow and beijing see things differently. they accused the west of destabilizing their countries by imposing sanctions and interfering in their domestic affairs. presidents, she's in pain and bloody may. putin reinforced that point in a virtual summit on wednesday. they pledge to corporate on trade and security and to respect each other's interests. katrina, you set up our discussion from beijing. it is, it is a virtual summit and show of solidarity the presidents of china and russia. she didn't ping and vladimir putin spoke for more than an hour on wednesday, hailing their close ties. voltaire, the wall has undergone unprecedented changes and a pandemic in the last entry sign a rotten relations. how we do the terse, a verse storms as low as the deep historical traditions of friendship and a mutual understanding have allowed us to tak

detractors of the russia china relationship always say that russia is choosing poorly it should choose the west over china but i always counter is that under that scenario russia must surrender a great deal of its sovereignty and that it is unwilling to do that its relationship with china both countries preserve their their sovereignty and their very adamant about it i mean if you look at their relationship when one is not subservient to the other they have mutual strong interests and that's where they start from go ahead jim they have huge interest together they have the russians have bass natural resources the chinese that best amounts of labor the russians need labor and the chinese need natural resources siberia used to be part of china you know it's only in the past 150 years or so that siberia big name part of russia is the russians but you know the history i'm sure so you know this is makes perfectly natural sense it's going to be good for both countries again i'm an american i don't particularly like it. i don't like saying what's happened but no it's fabulous for everybody the

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russia will strengthen china's air defense. russia will keep looking to china for naval capabilities. going forward the countries are likely to pursue cross collaboration and a bunch of areas and potentially more sensitive systems. all of these military exchanges, these exercises we are talking about are likely to permit russia and china to execute contingencies like a joint intervention in central asia or an expeditionary opposition -- expeditionary operation in africa or the middle east or even an operation in the pacific in the event of a crisis and they are also likely to continue to step up their intelligence sharing in an effort to carry u.s. intelligence sharing operations. that relationship has a lot of room to grow and i think that is of great concern to the united states. another area where the relationship has not pete is in collaborative -- has not peaked is to revise the global order around human rights. russia and china have a shared vision of a less democratic world. this is about power. they are taking actions to

there's not a member while russia and china are with well the u.s. just can't be everywhere russia is also missing in summer games ations where the us is a member. but . only in the. us. when i was talking about russia's in china stand on international issues i deliberately used words like similar mind orienting in this case i would say were are in tune with each other there is no disagreement with regard to the logic of the future su enlargement. there are certain differences in approach as far as specifics are concerned such as the time frame and the preconditions for enlargement that have to be met which includes legal financial and institutional issues. but i've got again. there are joint expert panels working on these issues and i think the organization will definitely expand in a few years those will. russia is evolving relationship with china is getting a lot of attention these days diplomats are evidently doing a lot to promote it but as we grow closer and barriers go down aren't you concerned that russia may eventually become a mere supplier

and so more context on this, i'm joined by expert and russia. china relations. really, that's soccer over a 1000001 year on from the start of the ukraine ball are china and russia increasingly on the same side is beijing still as it claims, impartial, noble, the countries are on the same geopolitical page. and in fact, this models we, then your coordination has been in the making over the last 8 to 10 years. so right now what we are observing is the manifestation of it and not the other way around. what is driving this partnership bar this china continued to support russia. well, 1st and foremost a day or are not engaged in a strategic alliance or a marriage of convenience or whatever. western concept you would like to introduce her to this relationship. it, sir. ah, temporary are symmetrical, our partnership in which china has obviously the upper hand, especially when it comes to trait economy of financial matters and yet, or what unites them is this shared interest, or specifically geopolitical interests in creating a credible counterweight to american global a

yes, it is china's interests that now feel the same. and this is very good for russiay coincide for objective reasons, because the vision in principle, we have a single future e world with china recently, we talked with some. uh, well, at a conference with some chinese colleagues, one of them said that we have a common goal, uh, in creating. here e or changes in the existing world order. maybe we sometimes have different methods. here , but that's not the point. the main thing is that we have a common goal. yes, therefore, no matter what problems there are between russia and china, or different visions of some issues, in any case , the problem is china, the united states is much more in agreement. and ruslan pukhov, a leading military expert, i wanted i would like to ask, well, what is the main point in the struggle that the scattered ukraine is waging and, uh, we, of course, have a lot of strategic disagreements about security issues, but it seems to me that more and more, in general, but .

china. it's about the west and the european union. and countries believe in human rights and democracy, opposing the tyrannical regimes of russia and china. so the u. s. has joined with you and other countries push fast multilaterally on the kinds of practices that we see in russia and china. it's a scary world where tyranny and slave labor become routine. it's important that the west oppose that we can do that diplomatically. we can do that through dialogue and essentially building with russia and china, if they will. but if they don't, and they persist in their ways, then there's clearly going to be a cost to pay for them. the u. s. and the west of costs. and what does that cost? the saying is china worried about the cost new? i don't think china is really to worry about what the americans are pushing at the moment, driving in china. it has a lisa who is incredibly confident in so any, in the direction of travel which that china is going when can question that and they are good ground to question whether the direction of troubleshoot jim picks. china is the white, one is the good want, but he is very confident that he is right. so he i

/china relations. russia never had hundreds of thousands of its best and brightest students flooding our universities. you know, at that time, you cannot go to china without encountering u.s.-educated people at the top levels of the communist party, at the top levels of the universities, at the top levels of the business community. i mean, it's a very different type of relationship. let's not forget that very recently we were getting along fine. president bush in the early stages of his administration, as you recall, looked into putin's eyes and thought this was somebody we could get along with. when we decided to intervene in afghanistan, russia actually facilitated our access to afghanistan through central asia as opposed to opposing. at the moment we're inclined to dmomize putin, and one can easily miss all the an equities that are there. i like to read the federalist papers and the federalist 63 james madison said one of the reasons you should pay attention to the opinions of other countries is because it

secondly, they are allies, teresa, put china and russia threat. why? because china and russia is most important to find the u. s. u. s. allies and in other countries, the either controlled or managed by the us. so the us, you know, none of them because you submitted to them because the dictatorship actors so could free. what is that to be freed, controlled some even european say to, you know, teach the water colonize about us. so thus, the poor, russia and the china as a threat even of enemy, because we are mostly pendant from the united states, so called a free will to the islands of the out of the city under. so could american solidity, if so, this readjustment of the alarm system is against the water. what to system? as i say it in japan, not be armed. it's not, it's a lose of the water was to be punished. and now the u. s. the need to cute japan and germany to content on and russia so nicely you said very insightful and the thank you so much for joining us today on the project for you now, those close alive to independent. just look relay. so thanks

with china or with washed -- russia. ofhave enormously more areas cooperation with china do we had areas of conflict. we have far fewer with russia. we could talk about the reason, but the possibilities are greater. it is a good thing. it is a good thing that china and russia have better relations than they have had in a long time. that is a stabilizing factor. >> ok, great. thank you. in fact one of our colleagues has written a book about russia and the united states with respect to nuclear power. jonathan, i know you have the microphone open. >> thank you very much. i will take a couple questions from the audience. let's start by asking. we have three pretty big personalities. , russiang donald trump been vladimir putin. how did these big personalities play a role in influencing trilateral relations? >> who wants to take that? ok. i made eye contact. so, i actually think -- i will just comment on putin and trump. , as i met vladimir putin think david has. i think this matters to a significant degree. as a coldhearted so

secondly, russia wants to sell more oil and gas to china. it's crucially important for russia regarding the fact that it is under the heavy sanctions imposed by the western western countries. and it wants to a, to find out more resources for revenues to protect his economy from a collapse this by china being the number one client for the russian energy. it also wants to have more alternatives. so they did the chinese leader. she even was in kazakhstan right ahead of the a did the chunk i cooperation are organization summit in has becky stan to seek for increasing ad increasing the that the gas import from kaiser kristen and export say that the reason for that. one of the reasons for that is that china doesn't want it relations with russia to come at the expense of at the cost of its relations with the west. rescue said that for inside story now is russell mentioned. china has avoided openly supporting rushes invasion of ukraine, but in the past week, beijing's 3rd highest ranking leader made his strongest statements yet, the lower house of ru

shannon: i will start a bit with russia and china in the region. they have been historically on more parallel tracks and tightly combined. russia came in predominately on the security side. richard brought up the cuban missile crisis. that is the big entry. still russia has had long-standing ties with cuba, with venezuela, nicaragua, many other authoritarian regimes, supplying arms, military training and the like. there is not a huge commercial relationship in the region. some have come into the energy sector because many of the companies were sanctioned, it is the one place they could go. probably the most significant trait is fertilizer with brazil. china, on the other hand, has come into latin america on a very commercial side. a lot of investment, finding resources they needed for their growth over the last 25 years. a lot of investment in infrastructure and the like. more recently moving into telecommunications, electricity grids, other things. but we are seeing china begin to come in on the security intelligence side. there is a big base in so

this is provocative by china's standards. we'll see russia and china being pushed together by what they see as you less aggression. imran: clearly, moscow will welcome any kind of support for russia in this particular time. but isn't the cost of this slightly too high? dmitry: there are no such fears in russia because compared to what we have from the european union from the united states, being a junior partner to china is not such a terrible perspective. i agree with the previous speaker from beijing that basically russia and china both feel threatened by the modern west, by its ideology which views any country that don't fit their ultraliberal narrative as enemies. if you compare shanghai cooperation organisation to nato and the european union, nato and the european union busters have summed it more belligerent. sco usually begins with the statement that says the organization is not aimed toward any country. nato is the opposite. this is the kind of rhetoric that makes them very angry in russia and china. in that case, president xi and pre

uh, in order to attract the trade turnover of russia to china, now here are the upheavals of russia toast, especially in china , so transport is very important parents. this is the first, and the second now, according to prototinsky, here is the trade from russia to china , well, china is a big market. birds, those companies that are part of your association have already invested in russia, perhaps, in general, during those years of existence, or maybe you can name it in the twenty-second year. what is the investment volume of the year? at least e-width will prevent the coronavirus, but still , there are already about $50 billion of chinese in russia. in the east, about uh, 13 billion dollars. this is yet again iota, but now the coronavirus pandemic is the territory of the negotiation the signing of the contract of god will be. ah, and the final question. what difficulties do chinese investors face? hmm, when they come to russia, uh, because you will agree that there are different mentalities, we have a different country. uh, what would you like? what kind of barriers should barriers b

gas coal and also water to china which is crucial for the chinese economy also china and russia on alarms at american aggression in the well as in china's alarmed at the increasing american naval presence in the south china sea china is alarmed at the american defense system in south korea and of russia is alarmed by nature in eastern europe but i'm not i know this is going to disappoint some people. they get the idea that russia and china are going to cons to take on american bankrupt america is of course following the chinese over the last 6 years have achieved nothing short of an economic miracle and that they were will be based on its relationship with china so the chinese will not do anything that could jeopardize their economic sense and so i would describe the relationship between the us and china as something like $36.00 i think it's good for global peace i think it's good for global stability russia and china are more allies than they are i think that that's a very good point and i actually that is my position as well you know kamal we've heard a lot about this relationship and s

that's because russia needs china after the west test distance itself from moscow. russia might be optimistic last year. trade with china reached a record $147000000000.00. it's set to reach $250000000000.00 soon. that's 40 percent more than current trade volume between russia and the u. currently, russia is china, 2nd biggest oil supplier providing over 15 percent of its imports. the country also covers 5 percent of china's demand for natural gas. meanwhile, the food trade has been growing fast. in 2019 china allowed the import of soybeans from russia last year. it added beef to the import list, and just last week, wheat, china is also a huge buyer of timber from rush us, far east, with imports worth over 4000000000 dollars last year. asked for trade in the other direction. china sells machinery, mobile phones, cars and consumer products to russia with exports up 34 percent last year. china is also rush us largest foreign investor having issued at least $125000000000.00 worth of loans for infrastructure projects that are largely tied to china's belt and road initiative. as russia counts on c