it seems like that would come in helpful. >> romney: binders full of women. >> stephanie: shannon o'brien, you must be been foremost? >> he never answered the question that the young woman asked, which is with income disparity what are you going to do about it? and he fell all over himself turning himself into a hero for promoting more women in his administration when in fact the real truth is there was a bipartisan group of women in business and politics that had reached out to candidate shannon o'brien, and candidate mitt romney, and said we're asking you to sign a pledge and we're going to gather these resumes, and give them to you on day one of the administration. >> stephanie: yeah. the whole story, once again is provably false that mitt romney told. >> well, i think he mind of lives in a mad man bubble. when i was debating him on the issue of choice ten years ago, and i was saying i don't think you are telling the truth about your position on choice he actually said i was being unbecoming, and i was not being unbecoming, i was just pressing him to get the truth out of him. and unfor

shannon o'brien, thanks for joining us tonight. nice to have you back. >> thank you, rachel. >> that '02 campaign is at the heart of today's debunking, if you will, of the binders thing. can you explain to us what was going on in 2002 at that time that governor romney was talking about last night? >> well, it was fascinating for me to listen to that story. i called on another one of mitt's massachusetts myths. and he's made himself the shining knight. the fact is, there was a group, mass gap, which is the government appointments project, put together by a number of bipartisan women's groups. at the time there were approximately, i don't know, 30% of women in high-ranking positions in that administration. and this group got together and demanded, frankly, of me and of mitt romney that we make a pledge. that we pledge to bring more women into, whether it was my or his administration. so we actually signed, i think he did too, signed the pledge. so when he goes and says that he was out finding all these women, the fact is, the women b

i am joined now by shannon o'brien, a former massachusetts state senator and former treasurer, ratherd former state senator. and thank you very much for coming on the show with us. >> thank you, milissa. >> let me start by reading you an analysis from right after this week's debate in "new york" magazine. quote, tonight's debate saw the return of mitt romney who ran for office in massachusetts in 1994 in 2002. he was obsessive about portraying himself as a moderate, using every possible opening or ambiguity, and when necessary, making them up to shove his way to the center. did this mitt romney look familiar to you? is this the return of the so-called massachusetts mitt romney? >> absolutely. i mean, this is the etch a sketch moment. mitt romney ran as a pro-choice, antitax. he was going to be a bipartisan governor. and the fact is he was opposed to women's reproductive rights. he raised fees by nearly a billion dollars. so it's say anything to get elected. but also pretend that you're a moderate. he actually took great pleasure in telling people when he had run for office before, he

non-partisan women's coaaition put forth 2002, massgap did approach governorrmitt romney and shannon o'brien to highlight this issse and rrquest ttat they express a commitment to working with ourrgroup. and subsequently, after governoo romney was ellcted, massgapp camm tooether and we actually worked reelly hard to vet qualified womee candidatts. there were hundrees of resumess that were put together and patually put thhm together and administration."rrmney has behind president bamm in - winning thh ooen's vote. even &pas the deeocrats continue working their narrative that there is a ggp war on women. "i thought that this was a desperaae ttempt to try to peep this warron women narrattve aaive."at last &pnight's debate romney tried t couuteract that by relating a ssorr on work-balance issues: "my chief of staff, for instance, had two kids that &psaid 'i can't beehere until 7 to be ble to get home at 5 o'clock so i can be there for making dinner for my kidd and being with them whhn they et 'fiie. let's have a flexiilee that work for you.'" joaane s &pbambbrger is the author of mothers of inten

, it was after the primaries, the project reached out to both him and the democratic nominee, shannon o'brien. she signed it first and then he agreed to sign it, pledging to try to use this material that mass gap was putting together and to try to move towards parody in the high level appointments. there's also a candidate forum that he participated in that was part of this whole project where they asked specifically about this project and how he was planning to fulfill it and so forth. you know, it sounded to me more like he was describing the way that he found a number of his female appointees. but then decided to take the extra step of taking credit for initiating it. when in fact it was initiated by some other people. >> okay. binders aside, did he have a good record on appointing women? my understanding of the whole mass gap project was to propel women into higher offices down the road. did it have that affect? >> it didn't. it's interesting you say that. there are different interpretations of his record with women. you can point to a number of high-level appointments he did make, partic

project, after the primaries, the project reached out to both him and the democratic nominee, shannon o'brien, she signed it first and then he agreed to sign it, pledging to try to use this material that massgap was putting together, to try to move toward parody in the high-level appointments, also a candidate forum that he participated in that was part of this whole project. where they asked specifically about this project and how he was planning to fulfill it. it sounded like he was describing the way he found a number of apointes, but then took the step of initiating it, when it, in fact, was initiating by other people. >> putting binners aside, did he have a good record of appointing women. the idea was kind of to propel women to higher offices down the road. did it have that effect? >> there are different interpretations of his record. you can point to a number of high-level appointments he did make. particularly early on. as you pointed out, over the course of his -- of his four-year governorship, he actually declined from -- in terms of the number of -- number of women in those offices

quote, prior to the 2002 gubernatorial election, mass gap approached the campaigns of candidates shannon o'brien and mitt romney. they went to him and his democratic opponent as well, not as he claimed the other way around. inaddition, mr. romney last night credited the recruiting effort that followed with helping him bring so many qualified women on board. and today the campaign put out this from the former lieutenant governor kerry healey. as we took office, our administration actively sought to recruit the best and brightest women the commonwealth had to offer. and governor romney wasn't just checking a box. mass gap said female recruitment dropped off, when to 27.6%. running mate paul ryan rose to his boss' defense saying he has an exceptional record of hiring women in very prominent positions in his administration and that's the point he was making last night. as for the obama campaign, they certainly see an opening. >> you heard the debate last night. when governor romney's asked a direct question about equal pay. he started talking about binders. oh, the idea that he had to go and ask whe

woman there on the left-hand side of your screen is democrat shannon o'brien.e actually -- she led romney in the polls back in 2002 in that gubernatorial race. until the very end. she ended up losing to him in a real squeaker. and romney's performance in the last of the five debates is credited with winning the largely democratic state. so who better to talk about what we should be looking for, what we can expect strategiwise, in that debate tonight is shannon o'brien, joining me live from boston. welcome, thank you so much. >> thank you. >> i've watched a lot of debates, read about the debates, and you were tough. and when you look at some of the polls, you were up by, shannon, as much as eight points. so what i want to know in those maybe the fourth or the fifth debate there, what happened, specifically what did mitt romney do that, you know, really helped him beat you? >> well, one, i think we see a similar pattern, one, he spent a lot of money on negative advertising, about 3.5 to 1 over the money we spent in the campaign. but in that final debate i think h

shannon o'brien ran against romney in the 2002 massachusetts governor's race and scott helman co-authoredhe biography called "the real romney." see that in bookstores everywhere. let me start with shannon. thank you for joining us, dear. here is the question. i hear there's a story, a wonderful anecdote, about the elevator in the state house and mitt's attitude towards it, which is one of those stories i always like because it explains human behavior in a way that voting records don't. explain the elevator and mitt as governor. >> well, the man of the people, the guy who was so bipartisan, actually for the first time in, you know, history that anyone could remember took an elevator that was previously open to the public and kept it just for himself. his own little private bubble going up and down into the governor's office so the public couldn't be on it and no legislators who wanted to buttonhole him to talk to him about legislative priorities could not get on for the four years he served as governor. >> scott, that reminds me so much when the republicans took over the white house after

people favored his opponent shannon o'brien. and he had a meeting with his advisers and they decided to shift gears. they went after her a lot more. they dropped some of the family friendly ad with ann, and went right after her. and the debates certainly played a big factor. three one-on-one debates between romney and o'brien. and romney was considered to win at least two of those debates. >> let me ask you about the performance in the debates. as i recall and also from reading there uh your article, his challenger at the time did something foolish in a debate, attempted humor without knowing the outcome. that's something none of us should ever do. and she really fell flat. and at the time, that was something that a lot of people said was a superb moment for mitt romney. and now we're hearing he's practicing zingers. wouldn't you think he would've learned from the failures of his challenger? >> yeah. i think he can benefit in two different ways. one is by coming across as a good alternative as somebody who people want to go to.

the organization shannon o'brien references there put out a statement reinforcing it was they who reached out to romney, not vice versa. they reached out to all the candidates. they said, massgap committees selected top applicants for each position and presented this information to the administration for follow-up interviews and consideration for appointment. romney got into trouble on this. he told something dishonest suggesting he was the good guy when he was responding to pressure, appropriate pressure. because he wouldn't answer the question. from everything you know following this campaign, where is he on the bill named after you on equal pay? >> well, chris, i think he will veto it or try to do away with it simply because his running mate, paul ryan, voted against it, and mr. ryan has been out on the campaign trail talking against the ledbetter bill, saying it wasn't needed, and i can assure you it was needed, and the house and the congress and the senate, they passed it. they knew it was needed. it had been there for many years, and i don't think that he's ever going to commit, and

joining us now from boston is shannon o'brien, as the 2002 democratic nominee for massachusetts governor she is someone who knows just a little bit about mitt and joining us on set in new york is ryan groom, washington bureau chief for the "the huffington post." shannon i would like to go to you first on this. an interesting exchange to watch. i want to know what you of the town hall debate in how that might affect mitt romney going into the debate tonight? the format of being with the public, questions being asked of him by members of, you know, by american voters as opposed to moderators and in your experience debating with him does that get into mitt's head? >> i think it actually favors him. given what we've seen in this campaign and given what we've seen in past debates. he's a fabulous fabricator and i think when you see that from that exchange he's pointing at me, looking at me and basically i look bad because i'm saying you're not telling the truth, i was right, but in the middle of the debate it's hard to pin someone down who is so convincingly not telling the truth. we've seen

campaign signed a letter of commitment to the project it was after the primaries reached out to both shannon o'brien she signed it first and he agreed sign it to use this material to try to move towards parody in the high-level appointments. and they asked about this project and how he was planning to fulfill it and so forth. sounded to me, he was describing the way that he found a number of his female appointees, but then decided to take the extra step for taking credit for initiating it. >> so, let's put binders aside. did he have a good record on a pointing women. the idea was propel women into higher offices down the road and did it have that effect? >> there are different interpretations with his record with women. there is no question that you can point to a number of high level of appointments that he did make. over the course of his four year governorship he declined to the number of women prior to his coming i know it was lower. there were some other issues aside from those appointees there were issues raised about his judicial appointees 17 of his 19 judge appointments were men. after some

prior to the 2002 gubernatorial election, mass gap approached the campaigns of shannon o'brien and mittt to make best efforts to insure that number of women in appointed state positions is appropriate. now mass gap says they then put together this binder and they say it was a big bind we are women's names there. they provided them to mitt romney once he won the election. he never asked for them, they say, as he claimed in the debate. they just handed him the binder. maria, is that what you're talking about? >> yeah, that's exactly right, john. for him to go before the debate audience and say that he was so -- that he was so worried that there were no qualified women applying for positions in his cabinet that he pro actively went looking for them and then we actually hear from the actual group that put together these binders full of women that it's not true. again, i think it betrays the -- eric, it's the truth. did you just not read the statement that was on the screen? i mean this underscores what the republicans are really trying to do which is obfuscate the record. >> that is such a

campaign in 2002 in the gubernatorial race there where he was starting to trail, falling behind shannon o'brien little bit. so, he's performed under pressure before and that is worth pointing out. >> remember bob shogan of the l.a. times, howard? i once tried to low ball him with carter saying, carter would lose something coming up, i think the general election -- no the primary. he said, i've heard people say they're going to lose and they've still lost. how far can you low ball? just keep saying, my guy's going to blow this and they end up blowing it. this idea of sandbagging and low-bawling going on the past couple of days? >> it's ridiculous. it's sort of the option verse of the ridiculousness version of professional wrestling where the managers say they're going to clobber the other guy. i take this -- i take this about as seriously. but to go back to a point you and chuck were making, the economy is still such and the views of the president's handling of the economy are still such that despite all of the mistakes he's made, despite the terrible convention, despite the bad luck, despite th

he saw it in the 2002 debates against shannon o'brien, in 1994 against kennedy and of course, in these primaries. >> mr. romney, the kennedys are not in public service to make money. we have paid too high a price in our commitment to the public service. >> senator kennedy, your question for mr. romney. >> mr. romney -- >> i'm sorry. was it my turn to respond. >> i was going to end it there. >> my suggestion about my comments in utah. let me complete it and you can ask me. >> do you have a problem with allowing someone to finish speaking and i suggest if you want to become president of the united states, you have to let both people speak. >> romney's worst moment was this one. it was a year ago with rick perry. >> rick, again, i'm speaking. i'm speaking. i'm speaking. you get 30 seconds. this is the way the rules work here is i get 60 seconds and you get 30 seconds to respond. >> obama has done his best to test him on this. both men have been tripped up by looking patronizing to women. aggressive attacks made her less likely to romney and helped turn the race in his favor. the last week

we'll talk to a person who says she debated that mitt romney back in 2002, massachusetts democrat shannon o'brien>>> sky-high, the price of gas hits an all-time record in california. will the rest of the nation follow? we'll get a live report. >> i'm going to show you how to make a wad of paper. a wad of paper can be a lot of fun, just to play with around the house or maybe toss expertly into a trash can. >> and later, yes, ladies and gentlemen, that is steve martin, but what is the star of "stage and screen" doing in this internet video? the answer is ahead, you're watching msnbc. new prilosec otc wildberry is the same frequent heartburn treatment as prilosec otc. now with a fancy coating that gives you a burst of wildberry flavor. now why make a flavored heartburn pill? because this is america. and we don't just make things you want, we make things you didn't even know you wanted. like a spoon fork. spray cheese. and jeans made out of sweatpants. so grab yourself some new prilosec otc wildberry. [ male announcer ] one pill each morning. 24 hours. zero heartburn. satisfaction guaranteed or your

in the fall of 2002, they approached both candidates in the gubernatorial race, shannon o'brien and now romney, expressing concerns about this issue and trying to work with our coalition. we were excited both agreed and expressed an interest in working with us. after governor romney was elected, he appointed lieutenant governor kerry heely to liaison with our coalition. >> so you put together this binder before the election results came out. he did not ask you for it. you were doing this anyway. >> yeah, i mean, we reached out to them in the fall of 2002 to get both of their commitments to working with our coalition. because we were bipartisan, you know, we weren't sure who was going to be in the corner office at that point. we started putting together -- casting a wide net and getting resumes in and vetting them so we would have qualified women we could put forward. >> the logs themselves, you were looking through them before you came on camera today. so what you're saying is he did not ask you for them, you approached them. >> you know, again, what i can say is that from what our reco

he ran for governor of massachusetts in 2002, he won that race in a democratic state against shannon o'brien. he is very good in these settings when he's on his script. that's what we saw in the first debate. it's true. he has all of these vulnerabilities on policy questions. there are two problems here. one is that obama did not force him onto the defensive at all in the first debate. the second is that the breadth of topics discussed in the first debate was very narrow and favorable to romney. nothing about women's health issues came up, nothing about immigration, nothing about climate change. this was supposed to be the big domestic policy debate. it was really limited to jobs, economic growth, health care. obama has a record there to defend. but it meant obama was on the defensive for that debate. all the stuff that got romney in trouble for six months out of this year was off limits. that's got to come up tonight. >> let me show you romney in the last debate and him bending the truth a little. take a listen. >> i will not reduce the share paid by high income individuals up. know and you

political action group in massachusetts, the organization had presented binders to both candidates to shannon o'brienromney and said, we have this -- these lists, these resumes of women who are qualified, eager for jobs, consider them for your cabinet. >> he made a commitment, both of the candidates made a commitment. >> but their argument is they presented these. he didn't come to them seeking it out. they presented it to him as they did to the democrat who is running against him. >> he made the commitment he was going to and he wanted more. that's what carrey heelly was talking about she was going through and that's what you'll see with a mitt romney administration, somebody who wants to go out and have a bigger pool of applicants, more people and it so happens when he picks the best people he can find, which he's very good at doing, half of them, senior spots -- people talk about hiring women and then they aren't in the senior spot they're in the number two spot, they're not in the number one spots, they're in the mid level spots they don't end up at the top -- with mitt romney you have his campai