use military force against gadhafi his regime losses nor emmett is in london now for more on this the west is now really putting the pressure on gadhafi isnt it. it is and i guess the most the strongest sign among several strong signs that they are ramping up this pressure is this repositioning of the u.s. is warships in the region we've seen the aircraft carrier u.s.s. enterprise which is literally bristling with choice of planes moved from pirate patrolling for pirates off the coast of somalia down now to the mouth of the suez serious canal which is within a flying distance of libya and there's talk that it might be moved even closer and we've also heard u.k. prime minister david cameron talk about setting up a no fly zone in libya that essentially means that any aircraft that takes off inside libya will potentially be able to be shot down by u.k. and allied forces under the assumption that aircraft that do take off are headed to be turned against the libyan people themselves and that in fact is similar to a position that was taken against saddam hussein a no fly zone was imposed in iraq

especially paul's ninety one iraq war a sort of euphoria that the west can do collective security they can be militarily successful in it and they can have full legal backing and regional support and i think that template and the euphoria of that sort of led led sort of us western intervention to go on with things like bosnia and kosovo but one of the other norms that has emerged i suppose in the last twenty years is that you know the implementation of responsibility to protect has been very selective i think you know nobody is surprised that it's selected again in this case but you mentioned oriel i mean i you know if i was at a meeting and sort of here in london a couple of a couple of days ago with the policymakers and academics and one of the answers that came out to the question is it all about oil was that had it been all about oil the logical thing would have been to do nothing and i think you know people who are in the states who have intervened in this it would be caught between two things here you know whether to do nothing because of this responsibly to protect if they haven

east and say let's be very generous of the last two months do you think that the powers that be in the west that have had so much influence in these countries over the last few decades i would say negative have digested the gravity of the change that is occurred in that region and what democracy means to people in the region. i don't think they have i think they underestimate the extent of what's happening in the arab world and i think they underestimated the extent to which arab people want to mock recy because what we've seen in these uprisings is that people very clearly want more democratic control over their lives they want more choice they want more freedom and they've discovered that they're only going to get that by taking action themselves we can see from iraq and afghanistan and other disastrous nation building experiments launched by america and britain that democracy cannot be delivered from outside by an army it can only by be won by a people itself taking action this is what the arab uprisings really show us that shows that the arab people want more freedom and they show that

twenty four percent say their troubles i knew she did by the west to school more convenient rulers in the region eleven percent regard them as forced takeovers ten percent believe that revolutions go ahead and the slime a character and then percent call them as senseless right what and who is next to fall is a burning question. ok i go back to learning only if you feel comfortable with the term humanitarian intervention because it seems like newspeak to me because you know you go through countries around the world that people don't like you know china the democratic republic of congo you venezuela zimbabwe bahrain you can talk about so many places where you could have a humanitarian intervention but no it's libya this time a lot of people will say it's because of oil there's other issues of hubris the united states standing in the world we see the french and the british politicians that are not doing too well in the polls a little war might help them out it's actually few americans you know who would be like to do in the middle east the last forty years i mean it's you know humanitari

development to the west side. the document both in the e.i.r. itself and in the response to comments and in the technical memory randa goes to extensive analysis as to why those were not considered. as mr. cooper stated, ceqa requires a reasonable range of alternatives and those alternatives need to address a substantial number of the front's objectives and also met gate adverse effects. with respect to the infill preservation alternative, one of the reasons which was rejected is that when you intersprers a bunch of building into a especially historic resource, which is important -- important because of its curl churl aspect and resource as a

these revolutions are overthrew dictators who have been supported by the west for the past forty years these revolutions must be me by the people of north africa if we're going to have a democratization process social justice and the billions of dollars used to provide employment for the people of north africa the united states cannot afford a military adventure in north africa as they did in iraq in fact the opportunism of pentagon is such that initially there were opposed to a no fly zone but now they're using this exercise as a public relations exercise for the united states africa that africa rejects so is it that the west is attempting to establish a military base in libya to stop the revolution in tunisia and egypt in the back let's be very clear that the west is not in support of democracy in africa they're not in support of democracy in yemen in bahrain in saudi arabia it is the west that is supporting one of the most arcade governments in the world in saudi arabia so for the west we all live in the united states of america when we are cutting back money for teachers for educat

protester killed one of the saudi troops we have mr qaddafi pushing further and further east as the west of the western world there is if it should intervene or not and given past history there are good reasons for that so what's the direction here is an enormous in the greater middle east are we just stuck in a huge sandstorm and we don't know which way it's going to go. where is the sense of excitement and euphoria that has engulfed the arab world but the veneer of the arab world few weeks ago is being replaced by deep concern and fear that the stew ition is degenerating into civil strife especially after the sit back for the revolutionaries in libya and there is fear now with the. president in the in behind him could degenerate into. within the regime could generate into and out. at any conflict and she has sunni conflict so we are at a crossroad today and we're all very concerned ok if i can turn to you now raymond and our friends now where do you see this in this sandstorm i mean we just heard a number of things that are going on you see a particular direction or are we still can't

that is supporting one that most arcade governments in the world in saudi arabia so for the west we live in the united states of america when we are cutting back money for teachers for education for schools for health for housing for environment we cannot spend a billion dollars on tom hartman says against libya it is up to the people of africa and it is amazing that in this discussion we have not discussed the role of the african union the united nations security council should be giving assistance to the african union for humanitarian assistance to libya that was the mandate of the security council of the united nations france and britain were in bed. with a good laugh it off the son finance succors his campy sour cause he is no in the lead to fight against this is a pork receipt of the highest order africans and this is a very. good reason to allow humanitarian disaster to take place go ahead a little has to go i had a very there's no there's no getting around the fact that the libyan rebels asked for our help that's plain and simple or if you want to reply that yes i agree that t

and what with all the west style it's very specific east i read it kind of democracy and. people want one o'clock press because i think they have more. the leaders of this got us as i mentioned in the block from jordan in a lot of the rabbit gun clean. of morocco there's an old equivocated appeared to stand beside the watch the situation. and the chemical is really going to control them immoral to the power for all the forty years like for example. or mubarak and what i perceive in jordan the people why will they change. because he's. going to the. very popular. when people in the west when western media and following the westerlies see vence like in egypt and libya in tunisia they say oh look this is democracy and democracy is the old ways are the best we are the russian country where democracy is different than the classical western style democracy so we know this is always somewhere in the middle we know this when we do those democracy and sold it i believe we know that there is democracy and there is democracy so what would you say as a person who knows this country and

and egypt leading the way or are libya and saudi arabia still the norm and what role if any should the west play. can. start. to discuss the sea change in the arab world i'm joined by let me sunday on the in amman she's a middle east analyst and journalist in london we go to taji most of our he's from his but a global islamic political party and in fresno we go to raymond he but i am he is an associate director from the middle east forum and author of the al qaeda reader and another member of our crosstalk team on the hunger all right folks this is cross talk means you can jump in anytime you want let me see if i can go to you first in amman right now we have a lot of things going on in the arab world right now we have a crackdown in bahrain we have the saudi forces they went in over a twenty four hours ago as we sit down for this discussion it has been reported that a protester killed one of the saudi troops we have mr gadhafi pushing further and further east as the west of the western world there is if it should intervene or not and given past history there are good reasons for that so wh

a little bit later the worst change its attitude and the image of could improve dramatically in the west he was he was even worse his thoughts you clear a program. the no any aggressive plans he has. proclaim eight he stuck to the new libyan contacts with the west world and on the way he made some concrete steps that life was accepted by the west libya was even made a member of the united nations human rights committee that he was the most i think it. was not is not now we can say yes the now we can see this and i think it was. a shock for many members of the united nations so so so so you think that maybe this was really the in one step. here in our studio three questions he's the vice president of the world association of brushwood press spotlight will be back shortly after a break so stay where you are we will continue this interview in less than a minute. wealthy british style. guys. like the. market finally. come to. find out what's really happening to the global economy with much stronger the no holds barred look at the global financial headlines tune in to cause a report on our t.

it is certainly a compensation for their positions besides we don't trust the west anymore so research china and india will be our allies in the oil sector construction and investments should the west revise their positions are you may an admitted was in the wrong and apologize come and say it was my mistake and the position i've stuck to was wrong and i therefore doomed the security council to pass the resolution despite my not having understood what was going on in libya and once transpired is not worth this hybrid in this case the west should abolish resolution one hundred seventy if the common apologize that they were wrong and this case all good relations can be restored with economic cooperation and oil production construction and joint enterprise. as they may return of the priority will always be for russia china and india there are some and i now have i that we have heard that some leaders of western countries are trying to apologize to you know how true are those reports that. this is indeed so we are receiving in direct confirmation of that they say that they were wrong on be

furnace and such a leader as mubarak was who was loyal to the west and even at that he starting from two thousand and three he became very loyal he started changing his country the economic situation to depart from this the role of government and the economy he gave up this nuclear program so everything was satisfied in the west su actually in the relations between the main european powers especially between believe me and britain live in france libyan people it was a total reorientation of the regime so why should the worst. that it can be risking it and nobody knows. who ever has control and the second conspiracy theory of the sly mr you know who the tao is slime it's conspiracy there is nothing like that because that he himself by the way he started to reconcile with the slime east movement he released a lot of islamic fighters from jails in september on august and september of two thousand them he started negotiation process with. the former islamic fighters and radicals now the main puzzle for me is that why is that you will see regime was such a lot of money it was a lot of mone

serve the west be approaches or be elected by their. people. i believe to the americans. don't really know how to handle this situation relationship is gadhafi will. go there were times when post him and go bother him and there were a time when this or both of them when he gave them the oil but now he's no longer of use and like to take his elsewhere who at the start of the year were in favor in the waist he's been ditched the hopes of the arab world for change under obama appear to be dwindling among some political figures at least than that of president bush there are a lot of criticism. after the advent of president obama there was a lot of. of a welcome to the new america and mr obama. i would have hoped that. the administration under president obama would have done better the protesters across the arab world hoping to topple dictators in the quest for democracy may find that their choice may not be as free as they'd hoped for with a meddling hand from a far still pulling the strings policy r.t. tel aviv. now stay with us if you can

there were people in the west saying they must be u.s. and its allies most intervene in the arab league says yesterday should be a no fly zone and then there was no decisive move and now is the united nations security council wants to sit down and hash out some kind of deal the end game in libya already appears to almost have been played out is that be whatever elements of the opposition are there now are really finding themselves and in by it looks like a reinvigorated libyan military force and its leader. well i think it's probably important to stress that even though you got it was very much on the back first about sundays ten days ago he was never really basic and i think you know he sort of major a stronghold in shipley. other places and other towns that were he knew would be loyal to him and he clearly harbored a lot more military equipment none. of that seems to suggest otherwise so what's happened was that the opposition's launch of supply potentially became very extended they found much more difficult encouraging uprisings in the

the car into remove gadhafi for them then they will be puppets of the west when we come to call well justin if i can go to you i mean and i guess that's asking people to make a choice on the ground here i mean even i and i'm very very skeptical about this whole operation as you guys all can tell me i can understand rebels saying look i mean we're going to get massacred in the next forty eight seventy two hours can you stop that from happening and haven't we already done that isn't really the job according to the resolution been achieved and i think that's where the discussion is where we go next year. because the resolution doesn't talk about any international force politically socially militarily supporting an insurrection in libya the resolution doesn't say that that's a. i think it's an important distinction all the talk in strategic space in the media space in the political space has been about this you know the intent for regime change has been stated. but actually if you look at the military operation is completely compliant with the u.n. security council resolution if you look

in the west you heard an interesting session just an hour or so back on the mountain watershed issue and of course, one of the principal differences there is snow lines become compared to present day or the climate that are tradition based on snow climbs are going to be higher and they raise about half a kilo meter or so degrees celsius. 6 degrees,c, perky lom tear. i don't want to try to do this on the podium. that has the effect of reducing the natural reservoir snow we could usually use in spring and summer and liberates more water immediately which is the flood water that you heard the director of the california water resource s talk about. we saw the global average picture but this is what's happened in the west part of america since world war ii, we've seen this large area - this happens to be a time averaged march, april and may. that's our classical springtime in climate terms. this red shading means we've warmed welltive to a longer term average by something like a degree celsius to as much as two or three degrees celsius and that's in central or west canada. so, we have see

development to the west side. the document both in the e.i.r. itself and in the response to comments and in the technical memory randa goes to extensive analysis as to why those were not considered. as mr. cooper stated, ceqa requires a reasonable range of alternatives and those alternatives need to address a substantial number of the front's objectives and also met gate adverse effects. with respect to the infill preservation alternative, one of the reasons which was rejected is that when you intersprers a bunch of building into a especially historic resource, which is important -- important because of its curl churl aspect and resource as a whole it would be an adverse effect. and you need to mitigate adverse effects to be a ceqa alternative. so i would say in closing that this e.i.r. is thorough and complete. there are issues that i think have been raced that are genuine issues, that deserve your full consideration. some of those might be what supervisor mar raised about how you feel about this place and whether

china and india will be our allies in the oil sector construction on investments should the west revise their positions on u.a.e. and a method was in the wrong and apologize. come on say it was my mistake and the position i'd stuck to was wrong and i therefore doomed the security council to pass a resolution despite my not having understood what was going on in libya and once transpired is not worth as high in this case the west will abolish resolution might in seventy eight if they common apologize that they were wrong in this case all good relations can be restored with economic cooperation and oil production construction and joint enterprise as being a return of a priority will always be for russia china and india there are seven and i have that we have heard that some leaders of western countries are trying to apologize to you or let alone how true are those reports that. this is indeed soul we are receiving in direct confirmation of the us and they say that they were on one bank for pardon or another i did not think it will all transpire like that and they are proposing to forget a

and with the west rather weakly i mean for example. he dissolved the warsaw pact but didn't really get anything in return for it he loved the g.d.r. to join nato without getting any written commitments in return that nato would not expand further east would see understood that nato had made a promise but there was actually no very definite promise on the other hand i think obviously the main fault for the for the the kind of renewal of the cold war really does lie with the west because we didn't respond strongly enough to gorbachev needs and then indeed to yeltsin's needs in the early years of post soviet russia we needed to do i think much more to help them economically for example by creating a stabilization fund to provide against the inflation of the ruble which was catastrophic in the early years after the fall of the soviet union so we made a number of very serious mistakes i think over to have made some mistakes but they're far of overshadowed by ours that if i go to you is that's the criticism i hear all of the time and it's alr

the west and indeed years threatened his own people but apart from there the west has long look for a conservative force to come in and govern libya on its behalf conservatively not exactly but i feel has tried to govern on behalf of the west recently. whereas in bahrain and in yemen there's going to be a very stable transfer of power once again and they will leave but the authorities in structure will remain a common thread here is oil and power you know here in washington we've been hearing a lot of cries lately especially since president obama has returned from his trip to latin america cries asking him to be more specific outlining the strategy what do you think the day that you know nato and the u.s. is going to find in libya what do you think the result is going to be the first thing people need to understand is resolution one thousand seven hundred three passed on my chin nineteen is a very very resolution it is not specific at all the vagueness comes from the following problem which the african command of the united states military has discovered it's supposed to be an air n

being from the east, this was my first trip to the west. i recreated the life of the west which easterners don't understand. they think of it as a whole other world. it was interesting telling the story of the west based on what easterners don't know. >> michael? >> well, thank you. basically, all of my book projects start the same way. i get interested in a subject and can't find enough published to satisfy my own curiosity, so i realize i'm going to have to write it myself. in this case, the case of my hoover dam book, i was writing a lot about water in the west for my day job at the "l.a. times" and i had a conversation with the head of one the largest water agencies in southern california, the metropoll tan water district, was telling me about where they get their water and some is from northern california and some from the ground, some from the colorado river, and they like getting it from the river because for them it's free. i said why is the water from the river free? well, we built hoover dam. now, i hadn't known that. in fact, he w

in the west it is interesting. his is not a due discussion about the brotherhood and whether not the brotherhood is something that can be approached and engaged in a diplomatic way. it is a discussion we have had many times and i want to give you one quick example of what i think is very illuminating from that perspective which was back in the early 1990s that wes was looking at trying to see if we had a partner in the muslim world that we could reach out to in this happened in the u.s. and throughout european countries is sort of an intermediary with the muslim world and one of the characters many in the west settled on was a guy named to robbie. he was a very prominent figure in the international brotherhood movement, one of the most powerful movements. he got invited and went and saw pope john paul ii in rome. he got on a private plane and flew there. he had tight security. he was embraced and invited here to washington and talk before congress and talk to many think-tanks here. he was very eloquent and a guy who

that's what we're watching for along the west coast really many of those low-lying areas. this is not a huge tsunami hitting the coastline. we are talking about two feet. but... should some places get inundated, that energy just comes streaming all the way across the pacific -- this is not like your typical wave moving across the pacific. it's moving at a high rate of speed, a high rate of energy. these come across about 600 miles per hour across the pacific. in a energy just being transferred all along the coastline. we are watching out for the possibility of tsunamis along up into the washington down through much of california. we are going to be watching this over the next couple of hours. of course it should shortly hit hawaii and that's going to really give us a good idea of just what kind of tsunami we should expect on the west coast. that should happen in the next hour. we buoys in the pacific, as well. we'll get a better handle on what to expect along the west coast. stay tuned, folks. we have to watch this very closely. we have more coming up in a few minutes. back

supporting the rest type of terrorist groups and radicals and all embracing the western state from the west to russia and then back to their upstate also the what what was very surprising for me the fact that the western states in all the have what all that we know of this scandal with the london school of economics would who was. the as one of the director was accepting the nations from which the code the speech and we know of the same scandals about about france. we know that. if you were you know by. yes that's some very respectable you tell them firms my impression is that a lot of european leaders one of the most active in trying to oust gadhafi think about themselves in the future workshops because they spoil the moment. with the original story console with put by fear and if your soul bare them so unpredictable and so dictator or you know why should the way we accept an obvious that you know or just us from the inside let me just pick up on this point i also find very interesting you just mentioned there are some companies for a given a very lucrative sales. while dills graphic was a

not seen in the arab world since the iraq war about twenty libyan defense targets have been hit in the west of the country by more than one hundred missiles fired from american and british ships and submarines. in duffy and gave a brief statement saying libyans will confront what he called the attacks of the clune crusader equivocal security council to discuss the due to missing of the operation international action full of the un's resolution to allow the enforcement of the no fly zone over libya to stop bloodshed on the ground. crossing live to what he's promised there who's in tripoli for more later in the hour. for the coalition decision to take a military action in libya is being made under the premise of a humanitarian mission but the globalization of missed shots of those states says the use of heavy artillery suggests a very different subject or. it is not a humanitarian operation it is really all you are seeing a military material and just say that this is to save the lives of civilians since when do these fighter bombers and save the lives of civilians well it's really a war which

because it's a loyal good thing we'd be in iraq if the pager ext war there was rockley the west has made clear its support for the uprisings in libya and is now threatening military intervention to stabilize south because most bullish nation. and more faster frog solve the decades old regimes through revolutions with world wide support look at how democracy isn't always welcomed by major world powers. and outrage after revelations that a u.s. psychological warfare unit has been the order to use nine tricks on visiting senators to secure more cash and suits for the war and. a lot from our studios and also you're watching hearty thanks for joining us oh gunfire has been heard on the streets of the libyan capital as hundreds of opposition protesters gathered to call for an end to colonel gadhafi his rule there are also reports of pro-government forces launching airstrikes on protesters in other parts of the country archies puter all over is keeping across developments from neighboring egypt. well monday we saw hundreds of protesters on the streets of tripoli protesting against the gadhafi r

probiotic ones are clear so it was an acceptable pool lead so unpredictable leader not friendly to the west and there was a sort of will also feeling of good being to what he has done to the western states and they were preventing considerations to have more friendly in libya along with one this seashore along with tunisia egypt and libya so it will be very i think profitable very interesting for the west nile to get cleaned up such a leader who almost had no friends in the arab world by the way in the world he had some friends in africa but he was spending a lot of money to support them both in the arab world. surprising for me that almost nobody is supporting the regime is supportive conduct even though they're critical known to what the coalition is doing they're not supporting productive. the provision actions and you know what you call in my view means that you know he was presenting some of the turner people who the global paradigm of systems put them in a liberal western type of society and the genes it was some alternative and this alternative was don't remember with the interests o