i wrote a lot about thomas jefferson, and one of my critics said, why are you criticizing thomas jefferson for slavery? you know, he's just like any other man of his times. and my answer is, we don't put just anybody on the nickel. we don't just put anybody on the $2 bill. we don't just put anybody's name on one building of the library of congress. we put people who are better than the men of their own times. two more questions, and then we're probably out of time. >> wonderful talk. owning let's say 250 slaves, how -- where did he rank among the top slave holders in virginia? >> no idea. he had a lot of money. you know, he would have been on the forbes, you know, richest 1,000 men in virginia. he's rich. >> thank you, professor. such an enlightening lecture. so you said that john marshall wasn't corrupt. it was his perspective, his view of his life and his investment that influenced his decisions. so one thing i love about history is that you can look at history to see who you are as a society today. so i'm concerned about our court judges right now. particularly the ones that are being n

john hemming is working for thomas jefferson. his nephews eston and madison would be working with him. jefferson purchases a full set of tools -- the tools are given to him through jefferson's will. he is also given his freedom and that time. he can make a living as a free man that way. we're happy that we're able to share the story of the history, along with the process of the restoration. graphic and watch this and other programs by visiting our website at c-span.org/history. tv is onhistory c-span3 every weekend, featuring archival films and programs on the presidency. the civil war at four. >> on a long the country was introduced to betty ford. aside from being beautiful and graceful and gracious and humble and welcoming, she was fierce. up for the e.r.a., which was not quite as off-limits as it later became because of efforts against it. but speaking out in favor of the equal rights amendment was astonishing. the work that she did was like a thunderclap. it,le felt it, believed where in all of it. we all know about her work o

john hemming is working for thomas jefferson. he is the master joiner. he is the master joiner. he is the master joiner. jefferson has a lot of abilities, and his nephews would be working with him. afferson actually purchases full set of tools and i am sure that john hemming had access to , and he workss faithfully for jefferson for many years, working originally at monticello as an apprentice and learns the trade, then he becomes a master craftsman for jefferson. he works on this house, his primary responsibility is for the work here, all of the woodwork and carpentry, to deal with it. upon jefferson's death, the tools that he used for many years working for jefferson are given to him through jefferson's will. he is also given his freedom at that time. he can make a living as a free man that way. so we are happy we are able to share the story of the history along with the process of the restoration. >> you can watch this and other american artifacts programs by visiting our website at c-span.org/history. >> you are watching american history tv, all weekend, every weekend on c-sp

john hemming is working for thomas jefferson. jefferson has a lot of confidence in his nephews eston and madison would be working with him. jefferson purchases a full set of tools -- the tools are given to him through jefferson's will. he is also given his freedom and that time. he can make a living as a free man that way. we're happy that we're able to share the story of the history, along with the process of the restoration. you can watch this and other american artifacts program by visiting our website at c-span.org/history. ispan, where history unfolding daily. in 1979, c-span was created as a public service by american cable companies. unfilteredring you coverage of congress, the white ande, the supreme court, public policy events in washington dc and around the country. c-span is brought to you by your cable or satellite provider. american history tv is on c-span3 every weekend featuring museum tours, archival films and programs on the presidency. there is a recent program. >> all of this economic change, federal spending, d

the democrats get together and toast thomas jefferson. these toast indicate their support. they endorsed the jefferson kentucky results. in 1798 jefferson argued in favor of the rights of the states. the supreme court had not yet declared the principal that we get to determine constitutionality. so jefferson and madison said they got to be the ones to do this. that's exactly what calhoun was claiming for south carolina. so some of the toasts are in favor of the kentucky resolution. the climax of the night comes when the president of the united states, andrew jackson, is going to speak. there are scheduled and unscheduled toasts. jackson attended on this night. he made it very clear that he would not let the union go out. so when jackson stands up for the unscheduled toast, he's by this time showing his age and not in good health. he never was a good public speaker. he was no match for henry clay, john calhoun and daniel webster . he stands up in the hotel and everybody is absolutely silent to see what andrew jackson is going to say. he holds up his glass and stares at john c

thomas jefferson only ever had two public receptions a year. dolley thought one was too formal and the other not enough. she started greeting guests every wednesday evening in the white house anytime congress was in session. people would wander in, they would be greeted by the madisons and then they would roam around the rooms and have wine and food and other things to drink and they would perform music. guests would be up to 400 people or more and they would squeeze into the white house. with a few notable exceptions, almost everyone enjoyed the drawing room. the point was that absolutely everyone was welcomed. whether they were members of madison democratic republican party, or they were the federalist party, whether a foreign dignitary or a local citizen. dolley was in her element creating a social sphere where people could interact cordially even when they were opponents. and very subtly building support for her husband's administration. dolley created the impression that she was above the fray of politics. she writes about it a lot. in rea

they gave it to this younger man who had come late to the second continental congress, thomas jefferson. he had written a pamphlet. he was a skilled stylist. if thomas had known how important that declaration would become, he would have written it himself. [laughter] >> he was very busy. he thought this young squirt from virginia would be the one to write it. be one of theto biggest mistakes he made to in his life. the declaration had taken on a sacred carrier during and adams was beside himself with jealousy over the fame that jefferson was dealt. be a back-and-forth kind of thing. i will chime in. professor ellis when i used to teach this, i used to say why the fourth? he writes to abigail and he gets everything right in the letters to abigail. the reason it is the fourth of july has nothing to do with anything said and congress. it is the fact that the printer puts it on top of the document, july 4. [laughter] wrong for allbeen these years. [laughter] >> but i cleverly said that realized theferson country at made a bad choice. to make the right decision on july 4, they both died. alm

developing, they all -- the democrats, we'll call them the democrats, they get together and toast thomas jefferson and these toasts indicate their position on various events of the day. so those people who support south carolina, they endorse jefferson, kentucky resolved. we're getting a little bit into the weeds. it's in the book. where jefferson in 1798 argues in favor of the rights of states to determine the constitutionality of federal laws. it was in response to the alien acts which were an egregious violation of the first amendment. the supreme court hadn't declared the principal that we get to determine constitutionality. jefferson and james madison who did the same thing for virginia, they say states get to be the ones to do this. it's what calhoun was claiming for south carolina. the right for south carolina to declare on the constitutionality of a law. in this case the tariff of 1828. so some of the toasts are in favor of the kentucky resolution. and this is sort of an indirect support for calhoun. but the climax of the night comes when the president of the united states, andrew jackson,

i saw blue book titled thomas jefferson and sally hemmings. an american controversy by somebody had never heard of, annette gordon-reed. while i was standing there i read the preface and introduction. that's when i knew immediately right then and there that i have found the person that i wanted to help me write my own book, the following monday i called the new york law school issues teaching, she now has two chairs at harvard university, i left a message on the answering machine and introduce myself and asked her to give her me a call. after telling her i was impressed with her work i said i have something i want to say too. one deputy thomas jefferson into i'm in love with sally hemmings. we had a good laugh and arrange to meet and i told her i wanted to write my memoir and i wanted her to help me do it. she said yes, and we have been partners in good friends ever since. as for finding the publisher was still a problem, had the good fortune of being friends with frank pearl, and now deceased of financier. frank introduced me to peter, the pu

the champions of the two competing visions of america and were thomas jefferson, and alexander hamilton. hamilton envisioned an america of cities with busy harbors and smokestacks. jefferson favored a nation of independent landowners. he did not want america to become be like europe where people worked for wages and became political subjects and not participants. jefferson's ideological descendents included andrew jackson and james k. polk, the president responsible for the mexican war. jackson and polk knew that for jefferson's so-called yeoman farmers to flourish, large amounts of virgin land were needed. so there was no coincidence that jefferson, jackson and polk together, added 2.1 million square miles to the united states, although jackson invaded florida before he was president. when jefferson took office in 1801, the u.s. land area was 891,000 square miles. when polk left office in 1849, it covered nearly three million square miles. what became the 48 contiguous states. since then, just 700,000 square miles have been added, most of it alaska. i emphasize land because the mexican

in 1801, thomas jefferson wrote to joseph easily, and in the -- priestly, and english we can non who said " longer say there's nothing new under the sun, for this whole chapter in the history of mankind is new to kind of -- new." once again, it is an enormous privilege to introduce our speakers, the two great historians who indeed are mindful of the future, have contributed greatly with their prodigious research to the past, and their exquisite writing and scholarship. ladies and gentlemen, joseph ellis and gordon wood. thank you. [applause] >> we will start with professor wood. there were two soundings. of course, the declaration to declare the independence and then the constitutional convention. let's start with the declaration. what were some of the great challenges that led to the declaration? some of the great challenges of that summer of philadelphia? professor wood: the decision had been made on july 2. to break from great britain. john adams didn't think it was that important. he thought that july 2 would be the day that jefferson thought would be celebrated. he was on the co

his word emphasizing freedom thomas jefferson argued that black women are preferred by mail orangutan than female. how would jefferson discover that? was there a black woman female orangutan asked them to make a choice just think about it. in 1934, the 23-year-old accused of killing a white woman -- the confession was forced out of him and they got together. he was castrated and his penis was stuffed into his mouth and he was forced to say i like it. then they cut off his testicles and they were stuffed in his mouth and while in his mouth he was forced to say that he liked it. they would slice and pull on it while he was applied and put a noose around his neck to the point he lets loose consciousness and then they would torture him all over again. they cut off his tongue, finger, finally killed him and took him to a nearby town where children came out with the state and they got to stab the black nigger, they got to stab the body. these lynchings are in the photographs on postcards you could send to your family and you could send messages like you missed the barbecue. it became a capi

as thomas jefferson famously on mattersmatters -- of style, swim with the current. on matters of principle, stand like a rock. finally, i want to leave you with some advice about what to do when you are not certain what to do. your world is filled with complex ethical rules, so many roles that sometimes you can't keep track of them all. when the rules are unclear, it is best to fall back on your own market principles. most --rinciples metal matter most. membrane element tree school when they told you -- remember in elementary school when they told you to plant this seat in look at the role of germination. with proper care, the roots go down in the plant goes up, we are all like that seed. it to a lifetime of random events and consequential decisions to bring me to this moment with you. i hope it was time well spent. i wish you well in your legal career. i hope that you pursue justice, support the rule of law, stand firm on matters of principle, treat everyone with respect, cause and to consider the possibility that you may be mistaken. lead with purpose. always stay

thomas jefferson when he was writing the virginia constitution in 1776, says the no freeman shall be disbarred from arms. he knew that we had to have arms. in 1787, noah webster said that a standing army could only will if the people were disarmed. as every country in europe was. he went on to say it couldn't happen in america because the whole country was armed. in 1788 george mason said to disarm the people is the most effective way to enslave them. in 1824, john cartwright, thomas jefferson again said most of our state constitutions assert the power is inherent in the people, they use to exercise the power and the duty to at all times be armed. he also wrote the national progress of things, for liberty to yield and government to gain ground. the second amendment rights, by sen. cruz, it is not about hunting which it does protect, i am a hunter, it wasn't specifically about defending our home, it does that as well. and defending god-given rights, that we all share. if we didn't have a way to protect those rights, we would lose them. if you lose your rights don't expect to get them

walt disney, thomas jefferson and more. wrapping up their school year tomorrow. have a great summer eagles. it's good to see. it's great. i can't wait. >> all right. 4:57 right now. coming up here on "today in the bay." kari a cooldown, i enjoyed it. colder today? >> cooler, taking a live look outside in san jose. a few clouds as we go to campbell, 54 to start, low 60s today. it's going to be breezy. sun peeking out from behind the clouds. we'll talk about a big warm-up for the weekend coming up next. >>> we expect traffic to be easy but it's not right now. here at the coliseum north 880 jammed from high street all the way to 23rd, about three miles. talk about why and show you a way around it for the time being. >> plus how could this happen again? a woman's body found in a stairwell at sf general. the details we're learning overnight about this latest investigation. ad lib live pictue good morning and thank you "today in the bay" "today in the bay" "today in the bay." taking a peek outside, live look at the bay bridge right now. nicely lit up. a cool start to o

[laughter] so when i was out talking about thomas jefferson, i got a call from chris christie. this is before he became patty hearst. [laughter] and he said i want to talk to you about jefferson, will you come to lunch. and christie's great company. i went to trenton, and he said, well, you know, i'm really more of a hamilton guy. and usually that means you're an investment banker. [laughter] and i wasn't really thinking, i just sort of said, that's great, golf, but at least -- governor, but at least my guy got shot in jersey. the damnedest thing happened, i couldn't get back in the city, the bridges were all -- [laughter] what were we talking about? >> you've been using bridgegate humor for a couple years now. >> i know. >> i'm going to allow it. >> let it go. >> we're talking about the institutions. >> the institutions. one more point just rattling around about joe mccarthy. joe mccarthy, one month after the fall, the mccarthy hearings, joseph welch saying have you no decency, sir, at long last, prescott bush and others finally followed the lead of margaret chase smith. it was

so when i was out talking about thomas jefferson got a call from chris christie before it became patty hurst, and he said i want to talk to you about jefferson will you come to lunch? he's a fun guy so we sat arked he said i'm more of a hamilton guy, and usually that means you're investment banker. [laughter] and i wasn't really thinking i said well that's great governor but at least my guy didn't get shot in jersey. the dammeddist thing i couldn't get back in the city, the bridges were all -- [laughter] what were you talking about? >> using "bridgegate" humor for a couple of years i'll allow it. i'll allow it. but we're talking about the institution holding. >> the -- one more point rattling around about about joe mccarthy. joe mccarthy one month after the fall, the mccarthy hearings and joseph welch thing no decent city senture happens -- prescott bush and others finally follow lead of margaret chaste smith it was a republican woman senator from maine who first laid out the case against mccarthy in 1950. declaration of conscience. she only got 6 cosigners -- in 1950 against mccarthy

put principal over party in many circumstances and part for that reason he won the eminemty of thomas jefferson longer his vice president, jefferson went after burr and had him prosecuted aggressively for treason. he could have lost his freedom and also his life given that this was a capital offense. this stands as a lasting reminder to us of the fact that even a beloved figure in american history, the author of the declaration of independence, thomas jefferson, when he became president, he had access to levers of power that at times he abused. it's one of the reasons we need to respect the three branches of government and the ability of each branch to exercise its own power. >> i look forward to reading it, author and senator mike lee of utah, thank you for being with us. >> thank you. >>> president trump not backing down from his debunked claims of a spy being planted in his campaign. john sue noou the former chief of staff will join us live with his thoughts on this and more. so to breathe better, i go with anoro. ♪ go your own way copd tries to say, "go this way." i say, "i'll go my own way

husband john, even mary makes that comment in a private letter to the governor of virginia, thomas jefferson who i am sure was not at all amused by what she had to say because jefferson, as we know had issues with women. the point is, all of these other cool who sent in these stuff, they are saying it in private. [applause] you go girl. [applause] tempting to read something more than desperation and exasperation into spurgin's assertions. like abigail adams, she was likely no proto-feminist. resented thean who legal customs that deprived wives of property rights, and especially penalized good women who were married to bad, stupid or impudent men. [laughter] ok. let's hear it. [laughter] i love it. we will talk later. [laughter] in the end, the state of north carolina, their land office issued a grant of land in jane's own name for 400 acres in her old neighborhood of abbott's creek in rowan county, which might or might not have been part of william's original property. i haven't figured that out yet. still, there are so many questions that i will probably never be able to answer. here are so

in fact, thomas jefferson when he was writing the virginia constitution draft one, 1776, said that no free man shall be disbarred from arms. he knew that we had to have arms. in 1787, noah webster said that a standing army could only rule if the people were disarmed, as almost every country in europe was. he went on to say that that couldn't happen in america because the whole country was armed. in 1778, george mason said to disarm the people is the most effectual way to enslave them. in a letter in june of 1824, john cartwright, thomas jefferson again said that most of our states constitutions assert the power is inherent in the people, that they use that, exercise that power, and that it is their right and their duty to at all times be armed. because, he also wrote, at the national progress of things was a liberty to yield and government to gain ground. whereas ronald reagan said, as government expands, liberty contracts. our founders knew that the second amendment right was important and as a said earlier i think by senator cruz, it's not about hunting, which it does protect, and i

principles and now i way to contrast hamiltons republicanism with that of his most influential rival, thomas jefferson. jefferson were devoted two direct democracy, jefferson championing states rights and hamilton national -- jefferson liberally, hamilton economic prosperity. we say all of american history can be -- give us a sense of the clash between philosophies of jefferson and hamilton. >> well, when the nazis overthrew great britain by declaration in 1776 and finally in the battle of yorktown. what the country had done was set upon a democratic experiment. the likes of which outside of a handful of those inordinately the work is not seen, it did not go well. it was not a good experience. on one hand you have the articles of confederation. which were purposefully stripped of willpower. by states rights delegates. and you also have the state governments which are by the standards would have been democratic. and in places like new jersey and pennsylvania, some states of connecticut not as much but you have real, a real kind of participatory democracy of happening. by the standards of the contempora

we remember the words of thomas jefferson it is a vital requisite we regularly receive affirmation leading the vision which is preserving democracy like to share an excerpt from her recent comment from the teacher from a local school. in the era of video games and smart phones children can be easily distracted but not the case with yours tour the reviews i heard were incredible they were engaged and excited and cannot stop talking what they have learned most importantly they connected to the legislative process in a way they were not before. since we opened our doors in december 2008, we have welcomed almost 21 million visitors we hope to reach 21 trillion by the end of this month with 300,000 tour at the capital 7000 congressional events in our meeting space as well as presidential migration gold-medal ceremonies consummate oil ceremonies delivering the training program to more than 30,000 staff for the tools that they need for constituents to develop a full suite of informational material including multiple languages to assist our international visitors. we welcome more than 8 million vi

he is the son that has more documents than thomas jefferson. what are you talking about. but that is moral narcissism and people came up with a book that is similar but it was a moral narcissists does. what that does is established in my book nomenclature who live in the society stalin was called comrade because he has a list of all the people and now we have an immediate politics george stephanopoulos according to what they are supposed to think and therefore become more to that class. if the entire solution is a narcissistic idea because there was no collusion and they are the worst detectives on the history of the planet. it feels like it's been going on for a century with n no anger whatsoever. we all saw it on television he went over and said vladimir after the election i will be easier on missiles. there are lots of things we could say about trump but that's not one of them, but the moral narcissism meant you have to thinhad tothink a certain way tr the entire media, cnn, cnbc, "new york times," "washington post" even the front pages of the journal spent the last ye

in a letter in june of 1824, thomas jefferson again said that most of our states constitutions assert the power is inherent in the people and that they exercise that power and it is their right and their duty to at all times be armed because he also wrote that the national progress of things was for. [inaudible] as government expands, liberty contracts. our founders knew that the second amendment right was important and as it was said earlier by senator cruz, it's not about hunting, which it does protect and i'm a hunter and that's a good thing, and it wasn't even specifically about defending our home though it does that as well. it was about defending those god-given rights that we all share in that if we didn't have a way to protect those rights we would lose them. as charlie said, if you lose your rights, don't expect to get them back, not without a fight. our founders knew that if we were going to have that fight we had to be armed to be successful. that second amendment right is fundamental to who we are as americans, because it enshrines that absolute foundational bowl of protec

likewise, when the british general lord cornwallis swept through one of thomas jefferson's plantations in early june 1781, he left the plantation accompanied by 23 of the future presidents slaves including a man named hannibal, his wife patty and six of their children. when more dunmore's army marched 1781, 17 ofame year general washington's own slaves ran away to join the british, including some of his most trusted artisans in house servants. famously, one of his stable keepers, a man named harry evacuated with the british heel on -- and up alongside other tryings in sierra leone to set up a post-racial government which had trouble of its own. slavesan 5000 virginia including harry washington fled slavery this way during the war years. all 13haps 25,000 across colonies. many ended up working in support functions for the british army. this got of countryside, built trenches, tended horses, cooked food, foraged for firewood and washed laundry all in exchange for shelter, protection and most of all they hoped, a life in freedom after this war. very few saw active duty as soldiers. that t

i mean, the first subpoena issued and served on a president was by john marshall on thomas jefferson1807. there was a subpoena served on madison. we know about18 the subpoena served on president nixon and the supreme court ruled that the president had to obey it. so he's completely wrong. the olc opinion, to my knowledge, only talks about whether or not you can indict a president. president clinton didn't fight the subpoena from judge star. heud asked us to withdraw it and said he would come if we did and that's what happened. we don't know if we would have fought it, i don't think he would have fought it. if he is subpoenaed. and invokes executive privilege,s that president trump, and a court ruled against him, he can say you have made your law, see if you can enforce it. supreme court said twice that orders have to be obeyed. cooper versus aaron and u.s. versus nixon. he can say i'm the president, i'm not going to do it. then we have an interesting constitutional crisis on hand. >> laura: i brought up the issue of staffers. we know that special counsel brought in a number of the cl

. >> presidents for years, going back to thomas jefferson are -- have responded to court subpoenas. president clinton famously went all the way to the supreme court to having to try to avoid testifying in the civil case of paula jones. he lost that, even if you're president, you must sit down and have a civil deposition. you must go to trial. it was in that deposition he made the statements about monica lewinsky that led ken starr to impeach him. in that case, bill clinton spent six hours testifying before the grand jury. in my mind it's clear as a legal principle. that even a president can be called before the criminal investigation. what we're seeing now is a long debate over the terms of that. will he have his lawyers there. right now we're having an argument over the scope and scale of the interview. at the end of the day, robert mueller has something called the grand jury subpoena. you are commanded to appear at the district court at the time and date below, and to remain there until a district judge of this court relieves you. that applies to donald trump as much as anyone els

. >> it goes back to thomas jefferson and his intention that he wanted to put the senses language incensus to determineion how it citizens could be properly represented in government. i yield back. >> the gentleman from oklahoma yields back. it is after 3:00. we would love to -- we would love for you to stay with us. ,f you do not want to do that leave if that is what you want. with that, new jersey. >> thank you, mr. chairman. i would like to clarify the record. -- the germanemen from california asserted they had made certain statements. the ranking member was not in the hearing room. we viewed the written opening statement. we also had our staff listen to the audio. at no time did the ranking member make the comments made. i want to make sure this is clear to everyone in this room and i know the hearing record will reflect that. thank you. of my question, mr. comstock, i only have one question. the justice department has argued a citizenship question is critical to the department's enforcement of the voting rights act. a coalition of voting rights groups has said that is false. the group

we remember the words of thomas jefferson. an educated citizenry is vital as a free people. we regularly receive affirmation that we are meeting our vision, which is preserving democracy one visitor at a time. i would like to share an excerpt from a recent comment at a teacher at a local school. in an era of video games and smartphones children can often be easily distracted. not the case with your tour. the reviews i heard from the children were incredible. they were engaged, excited, and could not stop talking about what they had learned. most importantly the children now feel connected to the legislative process in a way that they were not before. since we opened our doors in december 2008 we have welcomed almost 21 million visitors. we hope to reach 21 million by the end of this month. and provided more than 300,000 tours of the capitol. supported more than 7,000 congressional events, and our meeting spaces welcomed guests at presidential inaugurations, congressional gold medal ceremonies, concerts and memorial ceremonies. we've delivered our training program to more tha

the first subpoena issued and served on a president was by john marshal on thomas jefferson in 1807.ubpoena was served on madison and we know about the subpoena served on president nixon and the supreme court ruled the president had to obey it. he is wrong. the opinion only talks about whether or not you can indict a president. president clinton did not fight the subpoena from judge starr. he asked us to withdraw it and said he would come if we did. that's what happened. we don't know if he would have fought it. i don't think he would have fought it. if he is subpoenaed and invokes executive privilege, president trump and the court rules against him, he can say like andrew jackson said, you made your law, now see if you can enforce it. the supreme court said twice these order visit to be obeyed. he could say i am the president and i won't do it. then we would have a consitutional crisis on our hands. >> laura: bret, i brought up the issues of staffers. the special counsel brought in a number of the former staff of the president of the united states. watch. >> are you concerned about

>> it depends who you ask ray thomas jefferson began with john marshall. where on earth did john marshall find a bank in the constitution? we know that some members of the constitutional convention thought it wouldn't get the votes so they waited. it has always been difficult so i think it start from the beginning. think john marshall had a good case. george washington said i need an opinion on this. gets one from hamilton and one from jefferson and jefferson says you need to read this thing there are five things. hamilton knew that because the war power in the financial management power. i think what is new about today is it's essentially a social question. the court would weigh in on what was plausibly connected to the constitution and now we are ever more imaginative. with every decision and that's why you have to be very careful. kong -- congressional laws come and go. the constitutional decisions will last forever. >> i would be remiss if i didn't have you elaborate on the death penalty. historically we know people african-americans in prison have bee

thomas jefferson and richard nixon but they were for documents and in the nixon case, tapes. a hint may come both from the nixon case where the court said in a criminal case the court has to have the best possible evidence and if the president's testimony would fall under that category there would be a strong presumpltion of getting it. the clinton case was a civil case. the supreme court said it's not such an onerous thing on the president's schedule that you couldn't sue him while in office. two very different questions but fair to say nobody knows the answer. >> he said to the washington post, he didn't seem to want to give the answer. one of his assistants broke in. it reminded me of that scene in the godfather with sonny and the godfather where he said you're going to take care of us. we can take care of his ourselves. one of his assistants said of course we're bound by justice department policies. mueller looked at him like don't interrupt me. we can play that clip. >> our business is a little dangerous. >> if you're worried about security for men, they will guarantee i

so this man is interesting and also his victimization, you might say, by thomas jefferson during hisa great founder, the author of the declaration of independence like thomas jefferson can end up becoming power hungry and overreaching in office. it's one of the reasons we need to have constraints that limit the power of individual people within our federal system. >> isn't it fascinating, though, reading your book, reading other historical books that study the first 20, 30 years of the republic when we sort of feel like our founders descend sended from the clouds and gave us stone tablets, they were having the exact same fights. whether you talk about jefferson and hamilton in washington's cabinet or jefferson and burr or jefferson and adams. that creative tension is what made this government work. go back to the federalist papers. madison's view and hamilton's view. but they synthesized and created an extraordinary document. >> that's right. and one of the things we have to remember is as you say, joe, there are very few debates that are truly new when it comes to the size, the scop

thomas jefferson said it. i say it. you know, if the government just doesn't meet the needs of the people, then civil disobedience, whether it's justified or not, has to be. >> it would depend on the situation, again. sometimes the establishment hasn't listened. if it's necessary to start a disturbance, to at least get attention in the national media. >> a vehicle they use to get their attention. but then it also has psychological repercussions of people and fun to do these things. rather than sit down and bargain and work hard with somebody and gain that respect. it's more fun to go out and yell and scream and shake your fist. i think that's a poor way to do it. >> drake wallish, a stock clerk, speaks for the non-college majority that opposes civil disobedience. >> i'm all for the police getting heavy handed once in awhile. i mean, i don't want to see anybody clubbed to death just for the hell of it, but i want to see a little more action taken because i'm sick and tired of campus distur benss and this sort of thing. i

i came to politics and prose and made my way to a blue book titled thomas jefferson and sally hemmings, an american controversy, by somebody i had never heard of, and at gordon reed. i pulled it off the shelf and as i was standing there, i read the preface and the introduction. that was when i knew immediately, right then and there, that i had found the person that i wanted to help me write my own book. the following monday, i called the new york law school where and it was teaching and she has two chairs at harvard university, left a message for her on the answering machine, introduced myself, asked her to give me a call which she did that afternoon. after telling her i was impressed with her work, i said i have something i want to say to you. and i'm in love with standing -- sally hemmings. arranged to meet in new york city, i wanted to write my memoir. and she said yes to the idea and we have been partners ever since. as for finding the publisher which was still a problem, i had the good fortune of being friends with frank pearl, now deceased, financier, and in perseus books group.