we've got gary b smith, tobin smith. and julian epstein, welcome to everybody. todd, if taxes go up, get ready for that unemployment rate to shoots u, too. >> you've got that right. brenda, not only going to go higher, we're looking at hundreds of thousands of jobs eliminated because of higher taxes. you can't, you can't simply look at small business owners small business comprise of two-thirds of all jobs created in the country in the last ten years, if you're going to raise that personal income tax, that's going to hit the small business owners they won't have enough to go out and hire and we all have to be epared because the lor picture is going to get fragile real quick. >> julian, you agree? >> no, and a certain point on the show and elsewhere we have to stop utterin opinions and using facts. the most definitive study done about this, the nonpartisan agency that republicans and democrats agree to be the ultimateuthoty is the congressional budget office. they looked at this question and they found that raising the top, the rates on the top 2% will have virtu

gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris. a no deal better than a bad deal. >> it would create more uncertainty or one of the deals they're talking about, which is raising taxes and now, and they trust us, we'll get to the spending cuts later , let's not worry about that right now. the last thing we want to see is a we-need congress and a weak-willed president patting themselves on the back because they have some watered down deal. i think they need to feel some ain, i think they need to see he the implication in the markets, in the ecomy, so, yes, i think no deal right now is better than a bad deal. >> okay, gary b, jim mentioned the market, let me play wall street on tv. basically i'm sick of this. 'm going to keep heading south because the uncertainty, the anxiety is killing me. if we had any kind of deal, at least we might see stocks move up a bit. that wld be good for our 401(k)'s, wouldn't it? >> that's exactly my perspective, brenda. this was a really rough week on the market and it's all related to, n the-- not the fi

hi, everyone, i'm he brenna buttner, this is bulls and bears, and we've got gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris and susan and larry. okay, larry, no deal on taxes and debt scrooging holiday sales and the economy? >> that's right, brenda, you know, i don't want to be the grinch here, but in a word we are scrooged. >> the grinch! >> very, very optimistic expectations and an outlook for retail sales that was very rosie and those optimistic expectations have faded as we've gotten closer and closer tthe end of the year with no fiscal cliff deal in sight. and as a result, consumer sentiment is falling off a cliff, just like the fiscal cliff we're going to fall off so we've got a problem on our hands and couldn't happen at a worse time and today, super saturday, the second busiest day of the year. >> brenda: well, a lot of retailers are saving the big discounts until right at christmas and after. if consumers know that, maybe they're waiting, too? >> that's right. a lot of us are procrastinators and haven't started our shopping and a ways to go. you retail holiday season ends on janu

bulls and bears gary b smith, tobin smith. jonas max ferris and larry glazier, welcome to everybody. and larry, you say delay it? >> that'right, that's right, brenda, given the choice between the loss of millions of jobs in a deep and severe recession or delayg a deal in hopes of getting meaningful spending cuts in washington, the kind of spending that would cut the 4 billion dollars worth of additional spending every day, that's the long-term not the short-term torevent being back in this place a year from now and that's going to g the country back on its feet. >> don'tet excited. i know gary b will as well. and short-term uncertainty. it's been long-term and we've been going through this for years a wasngton in the doing anything. what does that do to the economic recovery? >> i think you see it with the stock market, brenda, everything is pretty much frozen. look, you cannot pic up a paper, a paper or lk on the internet and see fiscal crisis. everyone now is focused on it and i don't care if you're inside the beltway or out