think i might even be enjoying a glass of wine, and i got a call from washington, d.c., a man who tom doyle will have been acquainted with. i refused to give him tom's telephone number because -- >> tom would never talk to you again. [laughter] >> anyway, he told me the story. he said, you know that book "mortal sins," i said, yes. he has a lot of aqainses with priests all over the sky. he said, one of my friends was on a plane going to rome. he was reading this book, and he was underlining it. he met with a friend of his. it was a cardinal in the vatican, and he was having a glass of wine with the cardinal, and the cardinal choked, went blue, and white, and was taken off to the hospital. the cardinals -- i don't know his condition now, but his last words going out the door was, he can't do that. [laughter] i don't know who the "he" was, whether it was jeff or mike or tom, but, anyway, i wanted to encourage you, mike, about the effect of your tale. [laughter] >> i made a cardinal turn red, white, and blue. god bless america. [laughter] >> god bless america. [laughter] >> you know, there is

they will be removed from pension, power, pay and pension but that's why there are so few, like tom doyle, out there still in the clerical culture. and, finally, there has to be an acknowledgment that they are required to suppress their sexuality by this nonsense called celibacy. let's get real about that. let's get transparent and honest about that. celibacy does not cause sexual abuse any more than marriage causes incest. but it does require them to suppress their sexuality. then when it leaks out and to rape children and vulnerable adults, what happens in that culture under requirements and rules of the pope? keep the secret, avoid scandal, remove the priests and perpetuate the crime. and that's why they have the crisis because the top requires it. and if and when they become inclusionary, and feel the heat from catholic, non-catholic, continue to feel the heat from the media and the heat from survivors and their families, worldwide, they will have but no choice to either fall or to dissemble and begin the truth telling. and until they feel that heat, at the top, we have not seen real