u. s. u. k. european countries and they are, but they are assistance through green to be prepared for a big military conflict. and now everybody says it openly, it was denied before, but now even officials in britain, in us they say yes, we were there with the there were think look, they fight very good because over and i think in this regard of whether they were prepared for a war for, for attacking russia or for resisting russia. it does matter because here, put in a last to quote, i think was a close of it. so who said that intentions? a bismark. yeah. intentions don't matter. what matters is that for 10. yeah, exactly. and the potential of ukraine has been increased significantly, whether russia, rightly and correctly calculate that they were saying that's another big discussion . but to say that this operation was a totally unprovoked, irrational move, that's a bit too far. ok, well that are we have to take a very short break right now, but we will be back in just a few moments state. she didn't. ah ha lou needs to come to the russians state little narrative. i've stayed on the most landscape div asking him, and i'm not getting his house for a group in the 55 we did. okay, so mine is 2000 speedy. one else with we will ban in the european union, the kremlin media machine, the state on to russia for date and split our t spoke neck. even our video agency, roughly all band to on youtube with . mm. 2 yes, it's a good i think is 70 percent of you been 80 percent of so be a view below for why serbia intimate. if you say i want to approach and it means i want this best buy this one. me not a toyota. me. sale boss. little to login and then we'll proceed with . mm hm. welcome back to worlds of parts that said that i'll okay on the for such director, dave. all the discussion today before the break, we were talking about the military operation that the russia, conduction ukraine. and i think authorizing something like that would have been a major a tab before any historically minded russian leader, but the specially so i think for large and put and given everything you sad about how the russians and the craniums a part of one people would he have to part with this rather romantic geopolitical notion, you know, that your green light, the military operation and don't you think that rushing the way was how hostage off of that idea that you know we and the ukrainians or brothers and wasn't the west using that in a sense calculating, counting on rushes, inability to take a military step against ukraine for so i would not overestimate the intellectual capacity of the west. so when you said that they were rational in center or rational, yes. and you say that the county calculate how to provoke russia. i don't know, probably not a movement of thinking in the west as we see in the end of the cold war might be pretty disastrous for us and call us us. what is true? yes, the narrative are and which put in and that many russian decision makers base the approach to ukraine is a good mind and not the only one. so you can argue quite grounded about this concept of one nation and one people. because for example, in the soviet union was completely different idea in russia before 19th century, it was another version of this. and we'll put in the revived is actually the approach which prevailed in russian history in the russian state building since me the 19th century. it was it an emotional idea or was it because, i mean, the way i see it that he, as a commander in chief, had to take rushes interest 1st and foremost and, and many analysts including, i think people are associated with, well, they have claimed that well he sort of push the solving of the ukrainian issue off for quite some time that perhaps if that have been addressed earlier, we wouldn't have to deal with the, you know, with the casualties and this level of destruction and the level of west and push it back as we are dealing with right now, do you think he hasn't hated perhaps for a little bit too long, but some people believe that this action had to be taken down 14. whenever the thing started it's easy to be wise for somebody. yeah. i don't know what it is. i'm sort of to show that it wasn't the emotional put in is not very much emotional person. yes, he believes in this narrative and he believes in this idea about one nation. but actually, many of us, including myself, were very much surprised to the beginning of this operation and not, not to call it shocked. but actually approaching was very frank. if we remember his article published in july 2021. exactly about this, the genesis of russian and ukrainian relationship and the conclusion that the article was absolutely clear. that's the question to us, why we didn't read it as, as what was written. she said that, yes, we believe this is one nation. but we respect realities which emerged for many reasons, that there are 2 states, fine, and we are rated to recognize to accept this state with one condition that the state is friendly to our, to our state, then fine, they can corporate, like i didn't know you as canada and so on. but if the 2nd state will be based on the anti russian ideology and become the anti russian ball work, then the state will not be there. you mentioned the 2014 and how this whole debacle started with the association association agreement. and just a few days ago the e leaders formerly granted to ukraine and moldova candidate status, calling it a historic moment, a good day for europe. although there were some negative comments as well, for example, from you commission president or sewer on the line. who said that this decision was taken in the face of the russian imperialism. i wonder it's been much the same question as with nate, or do they authentically want ukraine in or is it another case of an expansion or promised expansion for the sake of expansion and spiting russia? no, no, i think this is like a trip. so they don't want to grain in the understand very well that ukraine is absolutely unfit to become member of the european union. even if we take full decides all the traditional problems. so you're grinned, but this is a country at war it's. i've gone through to all rules and principles of the european integration to accept such a country. what is interesting and coming back to the beginning color conversation, europe in union and european leaders who launched this project and then continued that. and i'm, i believe that this project was one of the most successful in european political history. ever. human, the, i mean, the european integration starting from the beginning, you the, the, the, the, the, the, the cause of the actual data. but the initially tried to dig distance to every sink which has to do with your politics. it's not about politics, except it's about development. it's about democracy. it's about economic corporation, but please, nor geo politics anymore. europe fed up with your politics into, into, essentially, so that and now it's the other way around the other way around because boss or mr from the line and the machine, the chairman of european council d. c openly. this is our do political duty to take ukraine and probably looking from this angle. yes, they the, they have to give some, some hope to ukrainian in this edition. but that basically eliminates the all idea about the european integration because in integration was not about that. and that's the question, not about the fusion of ukraine in the european union, but about the future of the european union policy. and i think there is another concurrent example, all fine, the war is not just being warrants, but being followed by actions. and i mean the, the effort on the part of the e, u, a to limit its dependence on russia's energy sources because energy up until recently served as anchor ropes for the whole relationship and in some sense preventative from did deteriorating, given how both size. now try to cut it off. are there any safety catches left against further escalation or even against a bigger war of wider conflict given how irrational or geopolitical things tend to be? you know, i'm afraid the only mean which still works is new to the terms. unfortunately, that's very sad and that's very primitive. actually we are back to 176. this may be fifty's above 2. yes indeed, you are right that the network cannot make into dependencies, which has been developed very carefully since late 900 sixes. and yes, indeed, it was an enormously useful mean to protect you repeat countries including the soviet union and then russia from escalations. now it's gone. so we see that interdependencies now play the opposite role that for the weapon. and unfortunately, in this situati