ron wyden is with us.s klein president of the american benefits council and against wyden's free choice amendment. bear in mind choice is you would be able to leave the employer-based program if you so desire. also with us is jonathan capehart of "the washington post" and arianna huffington, chief of the huffington post. senator wyden, where do you stand politically with you efforts to get liberation and choice for americans to try to get health care for themselves? >> i think we're making some real headway. what you got to say is if somebody doesn't like their health care plan, if they are entrapped, they don't like it, they still shouldn't have a choice. i don't think that's right. what we are doing with our proposal is importing the principal of choice into the employer-based system and strengthening the hands of the workers and imploirs and i think making headway. >> mr. klein, you wrote a letter to some members of the senate finance committee asking them and urging them to vote against the wide -- wyd

so you would vote for wyden if you are on the senate finance? >> i want to see the other specific details he will bring forth in the bill, and if everybody has to buy it and the funding mechanism, but i think the people should have the same choices as the government employees, yes. >> and then the only other industry that has that is major league baseball. and there is an argument for risk pooling. what are your thoughts? where would you vote on the exemption? >> i want people to be able to buy across state lines. what we need to do to eliminate the barriers there, and i think we will get more competition and prices down. most people ask about what is this going to cost? they are worried about the cost. what is it going to cost them personally. most people, right now, dylan, who look at it they think the whole program will cost them personally more and they will get worse care as a result. >> all of the cbo scores show that any of the choice amendments or anything that would liberalize against state lines, and treatment and subsidies being allow

i'm not confident that the wyden bill does that. >> okay.ou going to guarantee, or is any democratic bill going to guarantee that insurance premiums won't go up? if you look at the logic of this, if you take 30 million new people and you are demanding more medical services from the same number of physicians, of course costs are going to go up. of course premiums are going to go up. that's why the american people are wary of this entire plan. >> no, actually, costs are going to go down because people are going to be healthier. look at it in the long haul and a generational effort to get it done. michael and sam, great to have you on tonight. good discussion on this. >>> the president leaves for copenhagen tomorrow to make the case for his hometown, chicago. maybe they should get the summer games in 2016. we know he's got a lot on his plate, but this is big for america! how could anybody be against or criticize the president for this? well, i found somebody. in fact, i found two people. the republicans don't seem to get it, that this could be

our guest, senator wyden of oregon. and the politics of today's vote with howard fineman. >>> sarah's story. >> listen up, everybody. i'm going rogue right now. >> that's no joke. that's the title of her new book, "going rogue in american life." the details about her new book and why is the publisher rushing the book to store shelves. >>> selective indoctrination, the right-wing noise machine still sounding the alarm. ♪ can we make america better ♪ yes, yes, we can ♪ yes, yes we can. >> kids sing about obama. it's indoctrination. kids sing about president bush, not a problem. >>> and the hammer is tough as nails. tom delay promises to keep on dancing. >> i've worked too hard, and even though my foot hurts, nothing's going to stop me from doing this dance tonight. >> and what's going to stop you from dropping your partner? all that and more now on "countdown." >> we're going to dance to the break. >>> good evening from new york. i'm david shuster, sitting in for keith olbermann. there are five health care bills in congre

wyden has a really universal public option. rockefeller has a more traditional one.we would use a trigger. i haven't the foggiest idea how any of these front-runners would vote on that and i don't think they do either. >> there is some sense that dukakis brings policy area credibility to this issue. i mean, he knows a lot about health care and he's worked on it in academic and political context for a long time, right? >> you could -- i would say without hesitation that mike dukakis probably knows more about this subject than anybody else in the body he might be about to join. now interestingly, some would say that's an argument in his favor. i think from the obama white house perspective, it worries some people a little bit because of -- to the extent dukakis is independent, his own person, you can't always figure out where he's going to come down. my guess is, though, that this next senator is going to vote with the democrats procedurally. no filibuster. bring the bill to the floor and all of that. but on the question of amendments, it's jump ball really. but i thin

wyden's amendment goes up today, and then howard dean joins us for the option.me back to the program. educate us, if you could, what is the amendment they are voting on today, and would everybody in the country be able to use the option? >> i don't know. i have not seen the description of what is in the public option vote. i don't expect it to pass. you will have every single republican voting against it. it's more of a conservative committee than the rest of the democratic party. i appreciate senator rock rockefeller's position on this. >> i think people get confused on what the public option is and whether everybody gets to use it. what is your -- >> you should think of the public option is medicare if you wish to join it. that's what you should think of the public option as. and if you are already employed and insured by your employer, you don't get to sign up for the public option. and what the public option is, you get to choose, if you have no insurance or work for somebody that doesn't give insurance, or individually insured in the individual private mark

and i'm on the wyden-bennett bill that is deficit neutral. but the baucus bill is getting bipartisan criticism. democrats are saying they don't want a 35% tax on so-called cadillac plans that union members are involved in, where if you have $21,000 per family, $8,000 individual, the baucus bill taxes those plans. they're taxing medical services that companies want to provide to their employees. the employees are willing to pay for it to cover the uninsured. it puts 11 million people on a medicaid system. it reduces medicare by $400 billion to get to deficit neutrality. i don't believe it. we tried to reduce medicare by $33.8 billion and couldn't get one democrat to vote for it, so i don't believe one minute that you're going to get the congress to reduce medicare by $400 billion to make this thing deficit neutral. it taxes medical device companies. it puts $6 billion of tax on insurance companies that are going to be passed onto to individuals. so the taxing plan and the spending cuts don't exist. they'll never going to happen. so let's put a

democrat ron wyden told us the bill would force many people to buy health insurance that they can not afford. >> under the draft proposals certainly some significant number of middle class folks could end up paying more. >> reporter: and that's a problem for you? >> it doesn't pass the smell test. >> reporter: senator jay rockefeller called the bill a big, big tax on the middle class. and the senate's top democrat, harry reid, sounded off via twitter, criticizing parts of the bill. while senators debated parts of the issue, a house committee heard from americans pleading for health care reform. this los angeles father told of his struggle with his insurance company to get treatment for his baby daughter. >> i feel like her medical manager instead of her daddy. i need you people to let me be a daddy. >> reporter: liberals were also unhappy that the bill does not create a government-run insurance program, but charlie, the reaction today makes it clear that that is only one of many obstacles facing this bill. >> jonathan karl on capitol hill, thanks to you tonight. and there was new evid

democrat ron wyden of the democratic committee is our guest. >> nuclear deception. the iranian secret is out. details of an underground nuclear-fueleded nuclear site revealed this morning. the president responds this is a mistake. they will be sorry. >>> will china impose sanctions on iran? >>> no classification on bill sparkman. >> they knock on doors of saintly people and really horrible people. missing him is real for us. >> joe. heckler is the gop's new joe the plumber. why the republicans continue to embrace and elevate their fringe elements to poster boy status? sarah palin's latest attempt to prove she is up to speed on global politics. also she changed her profile picture. how do you lampoon a human cartoon? "saturday night live" took their shot last night. >> those letters don't rearrange to spell that. >> all that and more now on "countdown." >> i'm the best damn actor on television. >>> good evening from new york,

. >>> and also joining us is ron wyden. and one of the best we have had around. and then jonathan capehart, editorial writer and board member of the "washington post," and senator, i will begin with you. your thoughts on the bacchus talking points? >> this is the starting point. certainly not the end point and we are waiting for the detail. i continue to believe, the real challenge that we talked about on the show is to give choices to all the people of the country. we looked at the bills previously, and by law, if you look to 2019, the ten-year period of the legislation, by law 15 million people would be barred from getting real choices in the market places. if you want to get real accountability, you have to give everybody choices. i will be offering those amendments in the finance committee. >> if you look at the president's task tonight, and your views and the senate's views, and those that you talked to are about dealing with health care, how far off is the president or how far off is the senate relative to the president? >> i am encouraged the president's a

here the wyden free choice act.an the ability to either choose to keep the coverage they have or and i emphasize the or, this is a critical variable, pick a plan that works better for them individually and their family even if their company doesn't offer it. i added that last part. it guarantees both choice and portability by creating a path for employers to insure their workers through a state-based insurance exchange. and the way we've got exchanges in this country like the stock exchange, you can manage, you can basically bring all of the risks that one company might bear and basically spread it through the entire exchange. it's very effective, we use it with everything else we exchange trade in this country from pork bellies to stocks. i want to bring in john barrasso, he's been critical of the president's reform push. he's also a surgeon and served as president of the wyoming medical society. senator, i welcome you back to the program. how will you vote today on the wyden choice amendment? >> well, i'm not on t

senator ron wyden of oregon.hank you, sir, for joining us. >> thank you, chris. >>> up next, the elephant in the room. the story the white house would prefer we would ignore, about race. that kept coming up in the meets today with the presidential press secretary robert gibbs. so many questions. we'll get to how many on the question of race all being thrown at the white house. they don't like these questions. there's not really any answers. we'll have that story when we come back "the sideshow" only on msnbc. the sea salts of the world vary in color, taste, and intensity. now campbell's has found one that tops them all. it's naturally flavorful. adding it helps us use less salt than before in campbell's tomato soup. that famous, familiar flavor, as delicious as ever. now with less salt. thanks to a very special sea salt. ♪ so many, many reasons ♪ it's so m'm! m'm! good! ♪ chef's meal with pommes frites perhaps a night at the theater with extra special seats additional hotel night, our treat your world in perfect

one from wyden.uals to go into these health insurance exchanges and get a subsidy from their employer and choose their own insurance. the other amendment which isn't getting as much attention but similarly important is from olympia snowe and that would open the exchanges to all employers no matter their size by 2013. you put the two together it doesn't matter who you are, a person or employer, you can leave your current arrangement and look at dozens of choices. you add those in the bill and you have a much better bill. >> excellent. we will keep track of the wyden and snowe amendment proposals to see how they fare. fred, from a lobbying perspecti perspecti perspective, you had strong comments at the top of the 9:00 hour. if you look at those who lobby against free choice whether the snowe or wyden amendment it would tend from what we can tell and from my reporting and the unions don't like it because it niches their leverage in recruiting new members into the union. the benefits management companies

senator ron wyden rejoins the conversation. you believe you have a solution to unleash the forces of competition, senator. how do you get it done? >> we get it done by saying look. at every rally, i'm sure the president will use it over the course of the next few days, he looks at the crowd and says you should get the same deal as your member of congress. that is, almost a verbatim quote at these rallies. the fact is, the bills that are being written here on capitol hill, not only don't give people choices like members of congress, they don't give any choices at all. by law they are going to be barred from holding insurance companies accountable. >> why do you -- why are people in washington, d.c. so terrified to unleash the natural forces of competition in health insurance as in every other major industry to tremendous success for this country? >> ultimately, the status quo caucus, led by the powerful insurance interests don't want this kind of competition. they are slicing a fat hog. i had a chance with senator bennett of uta

senator ron wyden of oregon.oining us. >> thank you, chris. >>> up next, the elephant in the room. the story the white house would prefer we would ignore, about race. that kept coming up in the meeting today with the presidential press secretary robert gibbs. so many questions. we'll get to how many on the question of race all being thrown at the white house. they don't like these questions. there's not really any answers. we'll have that story when we come back "the sideshow" only on msnbc. i'm picky. so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. of maxwell house's flavor lock lid. hear that? seals it tight. smells like fresh ground. fresh fresh fresh fre-- that's our favorite part. ...fresh! (announcer) taste why maxwell house is good to the last drop. if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, alm

. >> the has been some talk om senatoron wyden out creating competition. i wish that wod find its way into the fin bill. it does not sounlike it wi. onthing that has cracterized th whole tng is a complete lack of honest aut cost in thsense that people will pay more about something. thepolitics has been amazing, om the presidentn down, about just not ever addresng the elepha in the roomthat you cann have meaniful health rorm without someby giving up something or payi more. ey arnow going, oh, my god, were doubling at the casi and it will st us something. >> you ll be paying more without anything happening. >> first of all, it is not a finance committee ll. the other thing ian say without fear of contradiction is that the baus prosal will nopass. it willnot become law. now, it is a hicle. a vehic for thether members the committee to start fering their all amendments to see what will work on ts bill. that is at will get thereal hone discussions -- >> relative ho i noticed -- >> then you look at the larr debate, cause they will have to pull thother committees

. >>> now joining me now tonight is the great senator from oregon, ron wyden. i say great because you had something on the table -- we're not going to talk about that tonight, but you've been working on this for a long time, this speech, ron. what did you think? >> powerful and persuasive. the fact is on issues like insurance. the president is talking about changing the inhumane model of private health insurance, in ep infe effect turning it on its head. it's a complicated issue. he put it in very personal terms. this industry will no longer be able to cherry pick, just go take healthy people. send sick people to government programs more fragile than they are. >> did he have -- did i sense a little bit of anger tonight, a little bit of frustration? this is a president who isn't known for showing a lot of emotion, okay. tonight he did. would you agree with me on that? >> he certainly did, and he said he was going to be on the public's side. he understood -- >> he wasn't going to back down. >> he said, we're going to have to take on some very powerful interest gr

. >> yes, there has been some talk from senator wyden and others about creating competition.h that would find its way into the final bill. there is a complete lack of honesty about cost. they are either going to have to pay more or did some. it is amazing about not ever addressing this. you cannot have meaningful health reform without somebody giving of something or paying more. now they are saying, oh, my god 1. >> but you'll be paying more without anything happening. >> let's get to where we should be on this issue. first, it is not a finance committee bill. the other thing i can say without fear of contradiction is that the baucus proposal will not pass. it will not become law. now, it is a vehicle. it is a vehicle for the other members of the committee to start offering their amendments to see what will work on this bill. that is where you get the honest discussion about what will get into the bill. >> relatively, i noticed. >> and then you get to the larger debate. you have to pull in the bills so the other committees confession is it into their bills, too. >> i noticed

. >>> and the support is gaining in wyden's amendment.uld allow people to buy from the exchanges where currently the baucus plan does not. >> go ahead. >>> moving on to california. we are looking at bad weather there for the firefighters. santa anas are kicking up and fueling a wildfire in the hills of ventura county. governor schwarzenegger declared a state of emergency in the county. more park college is closed today because the fires are burning above the campus. the forecast is calling for scorching temperatures and high winds. >>> and a car nearly hit a 6-year-old girl outside a mini mart. look at that. a parking poll -- you can see it there, may have saved the child's life. the woman behind the wheel is charged with reckless driving. incredible. >> oh, my god! >>> coming up, celebrities with a cause. and we have seen this before. we are seeing it now. will we see it again? harrison ford on the environment, and will ferrell on health care. the list grows. trend or talk? the panel weighs in after this. okay. you were right. these heal

would you be in favorite of wyden bennett and create a more environment for health insurers so they quitude that? no, no, the health care insurance companies are profitable to the extent to which they are able to collect money from individuals and not pay it back out for health care. are you in favor of systems that would improve the alignment of the health care system with the interest of actual patients? >> absolutely. but the way you do it is not by creating a government-controlled health care system which is the democrats want to do this. >> what about -- >> what about wyden/bennett? i'm talking about other proposals that would make it more competitive for health insurance companies, brad. would you be in favor of more competitive practices that disallow health insurance companies to make money at the expense of patients? >> within the private sector but not the government controlling health care. the government is already in the health care business and it's absolutely miserable failure. >> it is not an absolute miserable failure. >> you know that. >> we have three other systems of

there is that plan in the senate by senator ron wyden of oregon, who is a democrat, endorsed by any numberf republicans as well. there are plenty of plans out there. that's a democratic talking point that president obama, in particular, should not pick up, and he said it repeatedly. he said it again on monday in his speech in cincinnati. he said republicans are the people they just want to have a plan. what is odd about this speech, if you remember 16 years ago, president clinton gave his speech on healthcare and he outlined -- this was at the beginning of the whole healthcare debate and he outlined what he wanted. it went on from there. now we have had the healthcare debate. we we are have had bills pass three committees in the senate. in the house there are a couple of bills in the senate and now the president is going to come in and tell us? look, what a strong president does in a case like this is sit down with the parties in congress and say here is what i want and then negotiate a bill and go from there. there is no even for this speech unless he is going to hit the reset button and

joining me now, another member of the senate finance committee, senator ron wyden of oregon. good to have you with us tonight. >> thanks for having me back. >> we talked a lot about choice. you have an amendment out there that would allow employees to shop around the health insurance policies. to shop around for them. what kind of shopping are we talking about? i mean -- >> ed, we're talking about the kind of shopping that members of congress do. what my amendment is all about is that this provides a way for the typical consumer to hold the insurance companies accountable. it puts the consumer in the driver's seat. it forces the insurance companies to compete for the consumers' business. the president always says, and i really like it, you can keep the coverage you have. what i want to do is make sure is if you don't like the coverage you have you can go out and hold the insurance companies accountable. if they're ripping you off with your current coverage, you can go get something else just the way members of congress can. >> from the insurance industry? >> absolutely. >> wh

the other bill is the wyden bennett bill. it requires everyone to be insured. it is deficit neutral. if you buy your healthcare and the private sector. it takes deductions from business. it gives them to individuals so that they can use the tax code to empower individuals to buy health care through the private sector. the president is stuck on this my way or the highway. nobody seems to be caring much about bipartisanship. neil: or the highway. very good seeing you again. thank you very much. with the cost of that health care bill fast approaching $1 trillion, calls for the democrats to curtail their spending. this is not coming from republicans though. this is coming from what they are calling a moderate democrat. his biggest concern at this point is that a lot of the money we are committing to this is money that we can ill afford to commit, and least for a lot of the things that they want to commit it to. the senator joins me from washington now is 50. trace >> washington being washington, unfortunately not. i do not know what these amendments are because i a

and ron wyden seems to be doing something that is working nicely for him. >> the idea is the challengee and the center. i think we are a center country, and i don't believe we are center right. i think we can do a better job articulating values and policies. let's take the health care debate. we are trying to put forward a policy that would create competition in the marketplace. that's supposed to be, you know, a part of our society and our system. it's supposed to be an american value, actually, dylan. >> exactly. >> part of the problem is we become so divided we forgot we are all americans and it's supposed to be about america and not holding on to power. and what is interesting in the value voters summit, and john mccain tried that strategy and to go far to the right in the primaries and then come back to the center, and then the problem was when he tried to come back to the center, the moderates and center did not believe him, and he lost support, a couple of my own family, moderates that previously had great respect for him. so you have to stand up for what you believe in from the

lot of democrats that have a problem with these cuts including senator bill nelson from florida, ron wydenm roaring gone. it is going to be a tough sell to get this to happen. >> the reason is that the president has said if you like what you have, you keep. it the problem is that he said a quarter of seniors have this, instead of the regular medicare, and they like it. a lot of them are poor, and the reason that they like it is it is a trade-off. there is a little bit of a restriction on who your doctor can be, however, you get benefits and the poor that can't otherwise purchase it, so the president has said on television on sunday, they will make no difference if they take it away, and once again the c.b.o. shoots an arrow right through obama's promise. it said that if you have medicare advantage, and it's abolished, you will lose half of the benefits so you are not going to keep what you have. that's the original sin of the obama proposal. at the beginning, it said you're going to get a free lunch. we're going to expand the coverage at no cost. you cannot do it. somebody has to pay and h

. >>> we are joined tonight by senator ron wyden, democrat of oregon. >> thanks for having me, larry. >> i want to put up a couple of poll numbers. 80% of democrats think republicans are motivated just by politics. for some reason, more than half of democrats, 54% still think you democrats should compromise enough to get republican support. how do you read those two polls that seem to be in conflict? overwhelming majority of democrats believe the republicans are just stumping here, but they want you to negotiate with them? >> larry, polls are fleeting. tuesday is really when the test is going to be given. the question is going to be, is the committee going to hold insurance companies accountable? is the committee going to take on what i call the status quo caucus? it's led by the insurance industry. there are other powerful lobbies behind it. they are slicing a fat hog. what we need is cost and competition. >> you are going to get two amendments to the bill on public option, one by senator rockefeller which will be a public option similar to what they've done in the house. another by

. >> reporr: another finance comittee democrat, oregon's r wyden, colained the baucus plan may drivep cts for middle ince americans. >> it wld be very hard for a unted states senator to go ho have a community meeng, and look middle-class folkin the eye and say, "this is heath security." they're going to rpond, "hey, wa a minute. areou talking about my family paying more for heah care than we are today plushe prospect f a penalty or being exempt d still bei uninsured." so i thinkhere's a lot of heavlifting still to do. >> reporter: on the other se a republican the "gang of 6" ke enzi of wyoming said he objects to the new pgrams and spendi. >> the proposal reased today still ends too much, and it does too little to cut alth care costs r those with health insurance. at a time when ur nation faces an estimad $9 trillion deficit in the coming decade, we shou tart assistance to those in the greatest need whout creating unstainable new titlement programs. >>reporter: baucus envisioned ying for the n programs with a half-trillion dolrs in cuts to existingovernment health plans, and 50 billio

senator ron wyden of oregon. >> thank you, chris. >>> up next, the elephant in the room. the story the white house would prefer we would ignore, about race. that kept coming up in the meeting with robert gibbs. so many questions. we'll get to how many on the question of race being thrown at the white house. they don't like these questions. there's not really any answers. we'll have that story when we come back "the sideshow" only on msnbc. you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. discover a light yogurt like no other. activia light! delicious, fat free, and above all... the only one that has bifidus regularis and is clinically proven to help regulate your digestive system. activia light. ♪ activiaaa! if you're using other moisturizing body washes, you might as well be. you see, their moisturizer sits on top of skin, almost as if you're wearing it. only new dove deep moisture has nutriummoisture, a breakthrough formula with natural moisturizers... that can nourish deep down. it's the most effective natural nourishment ever. new dove d

next up, jo andee wyden. you have been a leader in health care coverage for years. frankly, i cannot think of a senator who has been more time and a higher percentage of his or her time on health care they knew of the last couple of years. many of the provisions that we have here are due to your hard work and efforts. i want to thank you for it. >> mr. chairman, thank you for those kind words. i do not want to make this a bouquet-tossing contest. you had made an extraordinary effort to in all of these many months to bring us together. we would not even be here without the suburban white paper that you put out to start the discussion. let me begin by saying that i guess you did not get the memo from the folks on the ideological extremes of american politics. they said max ought to throw in the towel on bipartisanship. you either did not get it, or you chose to ignore it. and as far as i am concerned, the country is for the better because of your focus on bipartisanship. you consistently said let's try to get here through consensus rather than confrontation. and despi

20 other members of the senate, half republicans and half democrats of a bipartisan bill called the wydenill and strongly supported grassley and baucus in the group of six to reach a concensus and they are half democrats and half republicans by i made a proposal of my own which i thought was reasonable and in an attempt to reach across the aisle. i think is there a working center in the senate to reach an agreement involving members of both parties. however, it would be destructive to that effort, in fact, it would terminate that effort if reconciliation were used because that is the ultimate partisan weapon. >> new hampshire republican senator judd gregg, good luck this evening. thank you very much. >> thanks a lot. >>> we take you to breaking news. developing story. the memorial for news great walter cronkite. let's listen to our own tom brokaw. >> president clinton, i wouldn't be anywhere else in the world right now. president obama, president clinton, members of walter's extended family here and across america, nancy, kathy and chip, i know how proud you were to be the children of wal

here's senator wyden. >> all we're saying is if your plan is not offering good coverage, and we give the employer right at the get go to take care of this, if the employer offers choices, the the employer offers a lost cost plan, that's the end of it. >> if they don't or if the employer is offering insurance that doesn't cover what needs to be covered, should people be allowed to buy their insurance from the exchange and use the money that their employer otherwise would pay the subsidy they're getting to go pick their own health insurance? >> right now all of the bills are built upon your existing employer-sponsored health insurance system. that is one who people who work and get health insurance through their employer like in this country. many americans want to be sure they essentially keep the kind of plan they have right now through their employer. right now this is built upon our existing system. >> right now as it stands as an employee of ge, i get a very limited choice of what i can choose for health insurance. snf in fact, it's changing. what i can choose -- if i don't like t

joining me now, democratic member of that finance committee on the senate side, senator ron wyden of oregon. good to have you be us tonight. >> many thanks, eds. >> all right. i want to know about this baucus plan that ended up on kay street first before it got over to the white house. is that any signal at all to you there's really no genuine effort on a bipartisan agreement? what do you think? >> ed, first of all, this is just a starting point. this isn't the end point. there are plenty of areas of improvement. it starts with the comment robert gibbs made yesterday, the white house communications man. he said 180 million people wouldn't be eligible for the public ogs. our figures are it's more like 225 million people. we need real choices for the consumer. that's how you're going to hold the insurance industry accoun n accountab accountable. that's how you get real reform. that's what i'm going to get out of the senate finance k. >> you're saying 180 million or 220 million people would not benefit from the public option? which whatever number it is, senator, at least they're going

democrat ron wyden told us the bill would force many people to buy health care they could not afford.> under the draft proposals, certainly some significant number of middle-class folks could end up paying more, yes. >> reporter: and that's a problem for you? >> it doesn't pass the smell test. >> reporter: senator jay rockefeller called the bill a big, big tax on the middle class and even the top democrat, harry reid sounded off via twitter. while senators debated the issue, a house committee heard from americans pleading for health care reform. this los angeles father told of his struggle with his insurance company to get treatment for his baby daughter. >> all too often i feel like her medical manager instead of her daddy. i need you people to let me be a daddy. >> reporter: liberal democrats were also upset the bill does not create a new government-run health insurance program but the reaction to the bill's release makes it clear that that is just one of many obstacles facing it in congress. jonathan karl, abc news, capitol hill. >> the white house is putting distance between itsel

not just us that are freelancers. >> you know, mika, we need to get with ron wyden on the bill and getis is one of the most critical points. if you want true free-market forces in the health insurance industry, this is how we do it. >> let me ask dylan before we go. what is your sense of the federal reserve's assessment of the economy? >> in a nutshell, again, a year later the government gets an a or maybe an a minus on how we handled the bailout. a fragile system was breaking and they were able to support it. it costs us $23 trillion. that's the use of the money, and not necessarily the expenditure of it. what kind of a system requires the use of $23 trillion in taxpayer capital in that subsidy, simply to make the banking system work? that's evidence we have to review how the banking system is built. we have an f for systems design. >> harold ford jr., thank you for being with us. dylan, stick around for the round table. and dylan, we go around the table, and we don't talk on top of each other, and we talk separately to each other. >> just follow my lead. >> that's how she talks to yo

talked to senator wyden and all of these other people.ng to be available to 60% of the people. all of us like myself who are on an employer-based system, the president doesn't say what you don't like what you have you can go to the exchange and switch it out. the bulk of us are not given the very opportunity and very choice that you say we so desperately need! >> the marketplace that will exist in the exchange should be extended to all people purchasing health care but it can be. >> people in the unions they haven't done it. >> once the database is created and you know which hospitals do the best job and which surgeons do the best job, you can use that, whether you are in the exchange or out of the exchange because it will be an available database and transform the way -- >> here is my issue with that. unless you apply real market force out of the gate to the employer-based system, it's not fair to go to the u.s. taxpayer and say to the taxpayer, listen, we're going to allow an inefficient market to function for 60% to 70% of the marketpl

ron wyden asked him if a person has critical threat information, urgent information and you need to bee to secure that information he asked leon panetta what wod you do in the particular situation where you have someone who could be a ticking time bomb and it's absolutely necessary to find out what information the individual has i feel we would have to do everythingossible, everything possible within the law to get the information. if we h@d a ticking time bomb situation obviously whenever was being used i felt was not sufficient i would not hesitate to go to the president of the united states and request whatever additional authority i would need but obviously i would against this president would do nothing and would violate the laws in place. having said that -- >> [inaudible] >> with the president of the united states, president obama, b from considering aequest from the cia to engage in the interrogation techniques beyond the field manual that were lawful? >> from the quote you read the keyword from leon panetta with the law -- >> the complete all -- >> it is an outline for interro

i absolutely agree -- i agree with senator wyden. the republicans have a different approach. we have mentioned two of them here. when is the association health plan for allowing groups of individuals, organizations, small businesses, to combine together and have the same marketing power as big business does because the have a larger pool, and secondly, not restricting sales to a particular state, particularly in the low-population states. the argument has been made if you can combine the populations of states through compacts, you have a much bigger pool. those are free-market solutions to the problem of increasing the risk pool. i will go back to what i said earlier, no one has refuted this, where not helping people when we increase their interest to 95%. that was exactly the result of the study which took one to account -- which took into account the presence of the mark, the guaranteed issue, modified ratings, and he's leading bands, and they concluded these reforms will increase the cost of insurance to 95%. small business workers, early retirees we talked about. millions