but there's also another way around to look at this, a game designer named jane mcgonigal. she talks a lot about how the qualities that people actually developed while playing games can actually help with real world solutions. do you agree that it helps? i don't know, solve problems, games can help us solve problems. it can help us strategize things and come up with real world solutions. oh, yes, definitely. i mean, just in, um you know, has done some really um, positive work in, in this and kind of an enter inspired even. um yeah, i was definitely inspired by james work and have been to some of her workshops and um, you know, games are about decision making. um, there's all kinds of different mechanics and it really is up to game designers to, to build in these mechanics and building in these environments that people have choices to make. that could be 2 real words and pack and, and for them to think about the way that they carry themselves. you know, daniel made some really good points about trying out different ways of expressing defense and, and then that being shifted