we do know that people in the i.s.i. from time to time have had dealings with the taliban and with other al qaeda leaders. >> schieffer: do you think, mr. rumsfeld, that this does justify the use of enhanced interrogation that was such a controversial thing during your administration? >> well, if you think about it, you've had three directors of the central intelligence agency who have said that the intelligence take from the three people that the c.i.a. water boarded, the department of defense water boarded nobody and nobody was water boarded at guantanamo despite the myths, but three c.i.a. directors, george tenet, porter goss, and general hayden have all said that the take from those three people that were water boarded constituted a major fraction of all our knowledge about al qaeda. the fourth c.i.a. director, panetta, leon panetta, has said very recently on television that some of that information was part of a patchwork or mosaic that led to the attack on osama bin laden. so i think that it's clear that that... tho

would like to question them but it took the i.s.i. a week to say yes. and then there was this: a report in the pakistani media that outed a senior c.i.a. operaive in pakistan-- apparently an attempt to blow his cover. so far there's been no reactions in the american embassy and it's far from clear who leaked this information but it's widely seen to have been an angry and humiliated i.s.i. taking revenge on the c.i.a. with the best will in the world pakistan was a prickly partner for the u.s. in fighting terrorism. last monday's raid has now torpedoed that good will and left the whole partnership in jeopardy. elizabeth palmer, cbs news, islamabad. >> couric: turning now to libya where people are fleeing the violence by sea. today united nations called on ships in the mediterranean to be on the lookout for rickety boats carrying refugees. hundreds may have died on friday when their boat sank near an island off sicily. another boat ran aground yesterday off that same island. the italian coast guard was able to rescue 400 refugees. in this country, a couple

>> it's possible, but how it could stay secret through schngz of personnel at the i.s.i., through changesgovernment is a great mystery, given that pakistan has failed to protect many other secrets of this kind in the past. >> woodruff: it sounds like you're skeptical. >> i would wait to see the evidence, yes. >> woodruff: grerng what about you? how do you read this? what do you think is the truth? >> i think at this point it's almost too early to speculate. if i had to bet right now, i certainly don't think that the intelligence services or the pakistani army were complicit right from the outside. i don't think they intercepted bin laden, for instance, after he escaped from tora bora and gave him aid during that period of time. i find that impossible to believe. however, if at some point along the way they might have discovered his whereaboutss, or if say more recently they discovered his whereabouts in that compound, in abbottabad, is it possible that they could have decided that this would just be too difficult for them to handle that the domestic political consequences of taking him an

does this mark a low point in relations between the i.s.i. and the c.i.a.? >> reporter: it's going to take a lot of work, but both the u.s. and pakistan know they have to restore trust and cooperation-- winning the fight against terrorism in this unstable region depends on it. now pakistani intelligence officials tell cbs news they expect the head of the i.s.i. to resign, which could be the first step in rebooting a troubled but crucial relationship with the united states. elizabeth palmer, cbs news, islamabad. >> smith: here in this country, by one measure the jobs picture is improving, but by another there is still a long way to go. the labor department reported today that private employers created well over a quarter of a million jobs in april, the most in more than five years. but there were still far more workers looking for jobs than finding them, and the unemployment rate went back up to 9%. here's senior business correspondent anthony mason. >> reporter: at this career center in california, job seekers scanning the help- wanteds can see the economy i

despite a behind the scenes cooperation between the i.s.i. and the cia at the end of the day and by that i mean almost ten years later osama bin laden was found in a mansion sized compound compound in abbottabad a small town that's home to pakistan's top military academy as well as a long list of retired military officers so how could they possibly not know the bin laden was there cia director leon panetta said that they're either involved or incompetent and so far has been seems to be favoring the incompetence option members of congress are already discussing suspending one point five billion dollars in annual systems to pakistan but will these two countries were forced to work together and yet never understand each other to be front and as we say joining me to discuss this is head of moloch fellow at the u.s. joint special operations university either thanks so much for joining us tonight. there's a lot to discuss here but let's start with the obvious clearly pakistanis are the top officials in pakistan are denying that they had any idea tha

is not just harboring the the i.s.i. intraday into service intelligence the pakistani intelligence which is also what it mirrors in the neighborhood to be the pakistani military academy they were not just war unaware or ignorant incompetent bitch doesn't fly among the professional communities in military or intelligence the problem is the united states the united states still trying to close their eyes to pretend that pakistan isn't in the in the war on terror so what are you inferring the ton about book about is a military town is an intelligence town with a house a lot of military people right isn't it a lot and was living under the umbrella it's all of that it's not under the nose it what he was living under their umbrella under protection of the pakistanis are you eating a lot and was it being protected by pakistani intelligence officials absolutely there's no question otherwise you have to pretend the united states intelligence and military community community are i absolutely incapable and then because we have to re

hendly's case leaving no doubt that the i.s.i. and pakistani overseers have played a cynical double standard with regard to the u.s. and pointing out that mr. headily might have been involve in the mumbai attacks from 2008. a lot of dots to be connected here. guest: absolutely, and i think we'll wait for the evidence to be presented particularly on the reported involvement of i.s.i. officers. this brings me back to the earlier comment which i didn't address, which was, can the u.s. bring india and pakistan together. i think india and pakistan need to bring themselves together. that's at the heart of all these issues. the spy versus spy games will continue until such point that the government in pakistan and the military in pakistan realizes that there is a need to normalize this relationship because it would benefit both sides. at the atlantic council, we've focused on this a lot. we've had a number of presentations of surveys and research which indicate that if they open up trade, their trade could rise from $2 billion a year toda

is it possible that the pakistani military or i.s.i. is that was actually behind nine eleven and no i don't think i think that's extremely unlikely just as there's a there's a ton of evidence and the nine eleven commission. found this definitively that nine eleven the nine eleven attacks were planned by. led by bin laden with khalid sheikh mohammed as the mastermind i think so how did i but instead it was behind that you know were the what's the deal with one hundred grand. i'm not an expert on that particular piece of information but there's no evidence that i've seen that suggests that pakistan's government or military was behind nine eleven it would be a disaster if that was it right so i don't think we're going to we're going to find out but there's a broader concern where pakistan is not a reliable partner with us and. we as a result have to do things unilaterally sometimes and that's why we've had to send our own intelligence and military forces into parts of pakistan at times as we as we just did and i think that's appropriate wil

this is really about the pakistani military and the infamous i.s.i., their intelligence service. they have to work with us in a true alliance. we've had scratchy moments over these last months with them. this is probably the ultimate scratchy moment but if they're not going to come clean and work with us in ways that we both can be successful in this important alliance then that money ought to be more conditioned than it is today. >> ifill: senator chambliss on the money question. well, we have to remember that we went in to a relationship with pakistan knowing it's a very corrupt government, knowing that it's somewhat of a wild west state, but yet they're very important partner in the war in afghanistan. you can't decouple pakistan from afghanistan. if pakistan were to fall, afghanistan would be shortly behind and vice versa. it's important that we continue a relationship but there's got to be more transparency between our intelligence services. there's got to be more transparency between our military operations in afghanistan and their military operations in pakistan. if they re

would have enabled the civilian government in pakistan to go after they're all going to mince in the i.s.i. if there are any it would have been able to take the nation on board and say you know we are going to question our own intelligence agencies but what is going on inside our country everybody would have said that we're not showing the body rushing into the sea dumping it there is giving birth to what the americans last book called the conspiracy theories you know something we have to look at what it is of this operation so what i'm saying is the amount of contact in. south central asia right now is rather clumsy or damn glad you got it i want to go to you in tucson i mean it's only a matter of time before the united states leaves afghanistan and we can put out another ten years or so but the pakistanis are and the taliban are various elements of the taliban they're just waiting there waiting for that ok and they've shown a lot of a lot of staying power here so again you know i mean the americans have fewer and fewer cards there's a lot of bluster and gloating and maybe it's all about

delhi i think the most recent major terrorist attack here in india was said to have been linked to the i.s.i. or caucused on secret service so obviously around the world there are terrorist attacks that have happened in recent years since two thousand and one september eleventh it had nothing to do with osama bin laden so while the death of osama bin laden can be seen as somewhat of a success saying that the war on terror is over is definitely a little bit over simplified but i think it's also important to remember the context here the history of this region if you look back to the one nine hundred eighty s. it was actually the united states along with the help of the eye of fire pakistan secret service that were supposedly training freedom fighters during the soviet afghan war it was then those same freedom fighters that ended up turning into terrorists and carrying out a lot of these attacks that ended up really majorly attacking the lives of the pakistani civilians that along with american drone attacks that have killed several pakistani civilians it's hard to say that pakistan also hasn'

pockets or whether this operational credit odoi forces by themselves or by the would be assistance of the i.s.i. has apparently quite recall correctly president obama in his speech what do you addressed the public and made known as fact knowledge that without the assistance of the pocket of intelligence services this operation would want to be possible what is more than likely he said you said the other day on sixty minutes that that pakistan had to be complicit in hiding him after the fact they might have helped us but are you going gentlemen i doubt i'd like to stay with you i'd like to stay where you just can't stand gentlemen i'd like to stay with afghanistan but really i'd like you i think that's most readily. bradley i to ask you you know we've been this is ten years going on the united states has been in afghanistan for ten years and its coalition of the willing to do is dwindling all the time but it looks to me you know the insurgency is just it can afford to wait it out ok i mean the united states is i mean i was reading an interesting article coming from a military source u.s. militar

if we continuously keep blaming the army and the i.s.i.for what they have not been able to do, well, if they haven't been able to do then it is c.i.a.'s failure also. >> reporter: do you know of any other terrorist leaders wanted by the united states that are sheltering in your country? >> well, there may be more. there may be, yes. >> reporter: al qaeda's number two, ayman al-zawahiri, and taliban leader mullah omar, are just two of the senior terrorist leaders believed to be based inside pakistan, katie. >> couric: lara logan in washington. lara, thank you. and coming up next here on the "cbs evening news" from ground zero, with bin laden gone, is it time to bring u.s. troops home from afghanistan? [ male announcer ] a moment that starts off ordinary can become romantic just like that. a spark might come from -- a touch, a glance -- it can come along anywhere, anytime. and when it does, men with erectile dysfunction can be more confident in their ability to be ready with cialis for daily use. cialis for daily use is a clinically proven l

that was actually the united states along with the help of the i.s.i. or pakistan secret service that were supposedly training freedom fighters during the soviet afghan war it was then those same freedom fighters that ended up turning into terrorists and carrying out a lot of these attacks that ended up really majorly affecting the lives of the pakistani civilians that along with american drone attacks that have killed several pakistani civilians it's hard to say that pakistan also hasn't been affected by this war on terror they certainly have been a victim as well when it comes to india's reaction to osama bin laden stuff a lot of indians are still waiting for a pockets on the government's official reaction as to whether or not they knew that these american troops were going to come in and capture osama bin ladin there's a lot of talk a lot of speculation here a lot of eyebrows raised talking about the fact that osama bin laden was captured so close to the pakistani capital a lot of indians here are wondering how they could not have known that he was th

death but the sentence was not carried out by pakistani officials he himself was very tied into the i.s.i. in pakistan and this was one of the frustrations of the pearl family that no justice was ever you know delivered and then khalid sheikh mohammad claim credit for this although it's not clear what his role is in that whole connection it's not really been fully investigated as far as i know either but is. it an excuse my mess happened the issue of the double standard at the bigger question here is that one. i'm sure there is you know you know we sort of quote take care of our own or we think we do and in many cases the american journalists are totally frustrated too by their inability to do their job because they're being managed by a pentagon bureaucracy that's interested in prague perception management managing the audience's perception and therefore either allowing or not allowing journalists to do their job thoroughly it's not exactly a very free environment to cover this war and many times journalists who applied to serve with units or want to cover things if they're presumed to b

be for to a this if the if the if the local people were to believe that in some way shape or form the i.s.i. was maybe a little bit less than forthright in attempting to. take it down from this suppose it mansion in which it was residing where you believe that to be the case or not of course the u.s. would like everybody to believe on their side of the water that there is there are friends in these other countries who are willing to help them to put forth you know the types of efforts that they're doing to instill democracy around the world and to bring to justice those who they believe are the biggest oppressors to one of their ability to do that following on from your question the top of this interview given what you know about al qaeda should americans in the rest of the world be concerned about potential retaliation and is it likely. is retaliation likely well you know i would suggest that retaliation in the context of the great conversation that we that we started this program with is likely because of the fact that people out there are resistant much like they were during the era of t

up have to be shielding him well clearly i mean he's got sympathizers and supporters throughout the i.s.i. in pakistan and that really is one of the big issues here is the nature of the u.s. is current relationship with pakistan and especially pakistan's intelligence services i think the relationship side is never going to be the same you know it's . the say it's in difficulty and it's very complicated but the fact is as difficult as it is and as double dealing there is going on i think trying to work with this very strange very difficult relationship with the pakistanis is better than just throwing up our hands and walking away i think some influence some measure of leverage house however small is better than none at all and it's a complicated relationship and shown by the fact that they weren't tipped off we just went in without letting anybody know because of course we were afraid they would have to go and there is yes i mean our team we have an office in pakistan and there's a sense of embarrassment on both sides and on one side of just normal law abiding folks who don't like osama bi

i would think another opportunity is for the i.s.i. to now actually create a team that works closely with the c.i.a. and creates the radius of 50 miles around and look in the other towns around there. to see where else there are similar kinds of habitations and work with the local police and try and see where the other leaders are. because they are relying on couriers. it would make imminent sense for them to be within courier distance so you aren't relying on very long travel to convey ideas and create meetings without using the internet. these are things that intelligence people know much better than people like us. but i would think that if you want to prove your bona fides this is an opportunity for the i.s.i. to work with the c.i.a. and create a closed door team, we'll work together and share information and let's try and get this done. >> it's wise counsel. i have a quick question for you. all of these things you're laying out seem very sensible and while i do have unique respect for you, i think that imminently sensible suggestio

hendly's case leaving no doubt that the i.s.i. rd with regard to the u.s. and pointing out that mr. headily might have been involve in the mumbai attacks from 2008. a lot of dots to be connected here. guest: absolutely, and i think we'll wait for the evidence to be presented particularly on the reported involvement of i.s.i. officers. this brings me back to the earlier comment which i didn't address, which was, can the u.s. bring india and pakistan together. i think india and pakistan need to bring themselves together. that's at the heart of all these issues. the spy versus spy games will continue until such point that the government in pakistan and the military in pakistan realizes that there is a need to normalize this relationship because it would benefit both sides. at the atlantic council, we've focused on this a lot. we've had a number of presentations of surveys and research which indicate that if they open up trade, their trade could rise from $2 billion a year today to somewhere between $40 and $100 billion a year, raising

. >> you were here last month in pakistan and talked about the strained relationship between the i.s.i. and the hakani. is it time to say to the pakistan as they clearly you have a relationship with them, but turned them over to the united states. >> my comments still stand from that perspective. i was very clear about the priority for the leadership in particular with respect to the hankani network and i would not change that. >> is that the right thing to do? >> our approach needs to continue to be with pakistan a very comprehensive approach across the totality of government. saying this is how we are going to do it will not answer the mail. it will have to be a comprehensive approach. the secretary talked about the resources, which are considerable. it is understandable that there would be those who would look at that. i understand that. quite frankly, the pakistani leadership would understand that. >> do you presume that someone in the i.s.i. new bin laden was there and was supporting him? >> i think there, with the evaluation of the sensitive site material and exploitation that is

the area. that has presented a huge problem. we know that certain i.s.i. members have a sympathy towards the taliban and other networks. you have all of those problems all going on at the same time. it is a confusing place. our national interests have not lined up. pakistan has not come to the conclusion that the taliban and al qaeda is a bigger threat than india. they believe india is their problem. that has been our struggle all along. they look at this as, "we would like to help. we are going to try to help. had elected india lately? that is a real problem." that is the struggle we have had with pakistan. we need to understand. i think it is inherent as our relationship continues that we know who, what, when, and why about osama bin laden being in this compound for as much as five years. we should all understand that. i will tell you that today from all the information i have seen, we cannot conclusively say that somebody senior new and promoted safe haven. delete that even if the the other way, but we cannot say the institution near and what the other w