SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 16, 2013
05/13
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>> but may i add that u would like to do or you would hope to do what you need to make it a legal unit if that is possible. >> exactly. >> right. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> mr. sanchez, or mr. duffy? >> i am sorry. >> there is still more time. yeah. >> we are out of time? >> okay. >> my jay brown the project designer actually. and to answer any building code questions, i surveyed the property. and as far as i can see, it meets all of the requirements for the code compliant height, ceiling height and light and ventilation and also the meets of regress and if you have more questions i would be more than happy to answer them for you. >> tell us what is there now. >> right now you have a full bathroom, a kitchen, and a studio apartment, basically is what it is. it has the only means of you know, you can go to the side yard access and so you don't have to go through the building or the garage to get to it. >> and is the kitchen gas or is the stove gas? >> it is a gas stove. yes, it is a gas stove. right. with a sink and a full bathroom. >> okay. >> sorry, i think that what we are probably go
>> but may i add that u would like to do or you would hope to do what you need to make it a legal unit if that is possible. >> exactly. >> right. >> yeah. >> thank you. >> mr. sanchez, or mr. duffy? >> i am sorry. >> there is still more time. yeah. >> we are out of time? >> okay. >> my jay brown the project designer actually. and to answer any building code questions, i surveyed the property. and as far as i can see, it meets all...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 18, 2013
05/13
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possibilities and they could pull a building permit application to legalize some of the ground floor work, but they could not have a third dwelling unit in it. >> so for my information they could have you know legal habit able rooms down just no kitchen? >> they could not have cooking facilities depending on the levels to the access to the street and the floor before. they may be able to have a wet bar and a full bath in addition to the laundry facilities. >> so just for my information, the structures already existing, what would they open the walls to it. >> is there any other comments? >> seeing none, do you have any further to say? >> i am her son, and i have been there and grow up all of my life and born there, my brother is disabled and had two strokes and he is living there right now. if you guys and if it is not a legal apartment, if it can't make it a legal apartment, they move the kitchen, then there is no use for him being there. and he can't afford to go anywhere else. so we really like to make it, you know, an apartment for him so he can stay there. my grand parents bought it and it is all at the studio. >> why can't he li
possibilities and they could pull a building permit application to legalize some of the ground floor work, but they could not have a third dwelling unit in it. >> so for my information they could have you know legal habit able rooms down just no kitchen? >> they could not have cooking facilities depending on the levels to the access to the street and the floor before. they may be able to have a wet bar and a full bath in addition to the laundry facilities. >> so just for my...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 18, 2013
05/13
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unit. it's got to be removed. there is no way to legalize it. any kind of speculation that it's an effort to get more rent out of the unit is just irrelevant and there is no factual basis for it to begin with. i would just vote to deny the appeal and uphold the permit. >> i -- concur. >> i have been warned not to involve in tenant situations. if you have a non-permitted illegal unit down, but at the same time i believe that nov should be issued on the property as well. just to
unit. it's got to be removed. there is no way to legalize it. any kind of speculation that it's an effort to get more rent out of the unit is just irrelevant and there is no factual basis for it to begin with. i would just vote to deny the appeal and uphold the permit. >> i -- concur. >> i have been warned not to involve in tenant situations. if you have a non-permitted illegal unit down, but at the same time i believe that nov should be issued on the property as well. just to
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 16, 2013
05/13
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allowed to continue what is happening is the city is saying, if you are a good landlord, rent only legal units then you can't e evict people. if you are a bad landlord and represent out illegal units you have the advantage of being able to throw those people out when it's convenient for you and whether in fact you actually demolish the unit. who knows. if there is no nov. i understand the landlords didn't refile for them to recite it. they just got this permit. the board has power to grant the appeal. they should grant the appeal on a number of basis. one, if the appeal is not granted there will be a decrease in affordable housing contrary to statutory state of the policy of the city again, it is basically in equitable to give a bonus to someone who violates the law who is not available to someone who follows the law. i think the equities here lie greatly in favor of my client and that this should not be permitted to be a means to rce her out and possibly get in a new tenant at 2-3 times the rent and reward the landlord for the wrongdoing. thank you. >> thank you. miss the salas, do you want t
allowed to continue what is happening is the city is saying, if you are a good landlord, rent only legal units then you can't e evict people. if you are a bad landlord and represent out illegal units you have the advantage of being able to throw those people out when it's convenient for you and whether in fact you actually demolish the unit. who knows. if there is no nov. i understand the landlords didn't refile for them to recite it. they just got this permit. the board has power to grant the...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 9, 2013
05/13
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the o cc's legal unit is headed by inez franco. it consist of two trial attorneys. the two trial attorneys sustainability reviews and prosecuted 15 cases involving 15 officers at 16 cases. in addition to the two trial attorneys, the attorneys on the legal unit include a policy analyst and the mediation and outreach coordinator donna salazar. the other trial attorney is manny fort. the policy analysis work done by sam marm rooen in 2012 on the prohibition on the use of past keys in hotels including police calls involve mentally ill, amending firearms review, revise policy and also an amendment to the use of force policy to include complaints of pain. in mediations led by donna salazar we have an award winning mediation program. it's been recognized both locally and is recognized nationally. last year, 62 cases were mediated by mediators. those two cases represent more than one case load. they represent cost savings and greater satisfaction for complaints and officers. donna salazar also manages the occ's outreach program and the occ's community outreach strategic pla
the o cc's legal unit is headed by inez franco. it consist of two trial attorneys. the two trial attorneys sustainability reviews and prosecuted 15 cases involving 15 officers at 16 cases. in addition to the two trial attorneys, the attorneys on the legal unit include a policy analyst and the mediation and outreach coordinator donna salazar. the other trial attorney is manny fort. the policy analysis work done by sam marm rooen in 2012 on the prohibition on the use of past keys in hotels...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 26, 2013
05/13
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which the owner did include a three unit legally. they created one lot and they were going to build two units on each of the lots with the zoning. in order to allow that condition as an approval of that subdivision they would have to get a permit application to get from 3-2 to comply with the subdivisions. they did seek a building permit to do that, they received a certificate of final completion boo -- by the different building inspections that it had been reduced from 3-2 and that is the final legal notice of the property and there is a description on the property recorded on lot 11 because at the time that was the correct legal description of the lot. this notice of special restriction was prior to the subdivisions of the property. that's the critical element that is missing from the appellant's argument here. at the time it was the correct legal description of the property. subsequent to that, after the permit was received after they received their final inspection, then they were able in 1987 to apply for building permits to do t
which the owner did include a three unit legally. they created one lot and they were going to build two units on each of the lots with the zoning. in order to allow that condition as an approval of that subdivision they would have to get a permit application to get from 3-2 to comply with the subdivisions. they did seek a building permit to do that, they received a certificate of final completion boo -- by the different building inspections that it had been reduced from 3-2 and that is the...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 15, 2013
05/13
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this is going to a legal unit and maybe somebody didn't get the memo. so any way i you can help me i appreciate it >> can i just clarify one thing i released that the lawsuit the code enforcement in my office was taking care of that. >> i think we have a comment from the deputy. >> there is a standard for - the appellant could go to the fourth floor and do a 3 hour report and he could a appeal the 3 unit and heel meet with a member of staff that will be on the 3rd floor. that member of staff will make the determination of how many units and if we agree with him there's evidence of the fourth unit i'll go to planning and that's how the process works. and he'll get a clear process of how many units there are >> that's what the appellant did do. >> so obviously - i would like to make a motion to continue this for one month and just vote on that. if we have to vote let's vote and i second that motion >> on the question what is to happen in this one month? >> if i could add a friendly amendment to that motion apparently what i'm concerned about is it out sta
this is going to a legal unit and maybe somebody didn't get the memo. so any way i you can help me i appreciate it >> can i just clarify one thing i released that the lawsuit the code enforcement in my office was taking care of that. >> i think we have a comment from the deputy. >> there is a standard for - the appellant could go to the fourth floor and do a 3 hour report and he could a appeal the 3 unit and heel meet with a member of staff that will be on the 3rd floor. that...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 15, 2013
05/13
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unit. and let them go through getting it legal listed. i don't know why we need important time on this >> can we hear from the appellant? >> thank you. i have to apologize because some point in time i lost the gentleman right before the time this was going to go before the board of supervisors he started backing off this recommendation of me after i paid him $15,000. particularly after he said he had a deal with rose mary and basically we're going to put this on one permit and i gave them a blank did that because every time i tried to get and building permit i was refused and i've tried more than ten times. because they look at the screen and they'd say well, it says here you've got an illegal unresolved situation and we can't give you any building permits that's why it's been detailed. now i wanted to protest because i paid $3,000 to basically get a permit to do a small act i paid $3,000 that i could have gotten for two because the 2 thousand 3 hundred and 19 there's has been penltd. maybe you didn't put those aluminum windows in they sa
unit. and let them go through getting it legal listed. i don't know why we need important time on this >> can we hear from the appellant? >> thank you. i have to apologize because some point in time i lost the gentleman right before the time this was going to go before the board of supervisors he started backing off this recommendation of me after i paid him $15,000. particularly after he said he had a deal with rose mary and basically we're going to put this on one permit and i...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 7, 2013
05/13
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i said legalizing secondary units and i actually said "legalizing in-laws." at that time. so how to maintain affordable housing and i think as we work together on any legislation around legalization of in-laws that we consider the nuances that come from different neighborhoods in san francisco. what happens in the excelsior, and lakeview can be very different than what we see in terms of secondary units in the richmond or sunset or western edition. i think those considerations need to be made and i think it's important as we move forward that we know in terms of differences in our different neighborhoods. so colleagues i look forward to working with you on that. i think lastly i want to say, when it comes to secondary units in the excelsior and we are thinking about how san francisco is a city that is losing its families with children, that we consider secondary units as their price source of housing, especially in the excelsior district, which has the highest level of children than any other district in san francisco, closely followed by districts 10 and 9. i have another
i said legalizing secondary units and i actually said "legalizing in-laws." at that time. so how to maintain affordable housing and i think as we work together on any legislation around legalization of in-laws that we consider the nuances that come from different neighborhoods in san francisco. what happens in the excelsior, and lakeview can be very different than what we see in terms of secondary units in the richmond or sunset or western edition. i think those considerations need to...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 19, 2013
05/13
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. >> as a legal unit. >> yeah. >> but your suggestion about the rooms down with the weted bar is a good and people do that and it seems to work well. in these type of buildings. so >> is there an interior access to the... if it is like a inlaw type of rooms down, is there an interior access to the units? because it is two units and it is two additional units occupied, is there a connection between the lower floor unit and the ground floor? >> that we are aware of? >> i have not been there but it does not sound like it? it sounds like they said that the studio was totally independent. so how could that be? if it is not its own? >> there might be a light, but in the middle of the stairwell, and in the middle of the building in the breezeway and then in the studio. >> and the access from the sides. >> okay. >> and from the sides and behind the garage. >> okay. >> not the front door. >> yeah. the trades man entrance on the side? >> yeah. >> okay. >> for the garage. >> it seems like it is at the rear of the garage and i think that is where it is. >> i see. >> thank you. >> the garage. but ju
. >> as a legal unit. >> yeah. >> but your suggestion about the rooms down with the weted bar is a good and people do that and it seems to work well. in these type of buildings. so >> is there an interior access to the... if it is like a inlaw type of rooms down, is there an interior access to the units? because it is two units and it is two additional units occupied, is there a connection between the lower floor unit and the ground floor? >> that we are aware of?...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 15, 2013
05/13
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hired this structural engineer to research the fact there wasn't a previous building permit to legallize this unit. so he then the property owner filed a permit and it's in your staff report. he doesn't follow-up on legalizing this permit for the purposes of a stand alone unit. it shows no record so his agent actually assisted him but the property owner aborted the process. we had a meeting with the property owner on may 23, 2012, to discuss the various open cases for the two properties. at the meeting was myself and senior inspector andy cars and district inspector and mr. thomas and his agent at the time was an structural engineer. we talked about all the costs involved. as a good faith gesture i indicated to him at that time that the assessment of costs that was associated with that particular tracking number i believe it's 401 which had an amount of $2,100 we would set that aside because he was being assisted through all the other numerous violations. we didn't place that on the loins. but looking at all the various line items we didn't feel that anything else could be taken off. so the issue
hired this structural engineer to research the fact there wasn't a previous building permit to legallize this unit. so he then the property owner filed a permit and it's in your staff report. he doesn't follow-up on legalizing this permit for the purposes of a stand alone unit. it shows no record so his agent actually assisted him but the property owner aborted the process. we had a meeting with the property owner on may 23, 2012, to discuss the various open cases for the two properties. at the...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 25, 2013
05/13
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they requested from the administrator to the legal count from their home was three units. to help you understand the situation, i have to take you on a multistep approach. when they purchased their home 16 years ago in 1997 inspected the property. there is two stories above the basement. each of the units is well size and fourth unit was added by the previous owner and to the basis of the building. due to a water intrusion, they had to completely rebuild the bottom of the basement property and sought a building permit and they found their building was not a three unit building with a unit in the base many but the planning department maintained the unit count was a two unit building with a unit in the base many. if you go back over a hundred years, in the 1900s when this was a farm house. it was originally a large property with multiple square feet on a big piece of land and changed hands over the years but it was first a single family home and later changed into a three family dwelling according to city records. in 1987 the owner of the property, applied to allow the large
they requested from the administrator to the legal count from their home was three units. to help you understand the situation, i have to take you on a multistep approach. when they purchased their home 16 years ago in 1997 inspected the property. there is two stories above the basement. each of the units is well size and fourth unit was added by the previous owner and to the basis of the building. due to a water intrusion, they had to completely rebuild the bottom of the basement property and...
SFGTV2: San Francisco Government Television
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May 23, 2013
05/13
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are spent on this where it's very clear all along when the appellant knew from day one it was legally two units. the report from 1997 revert to two family dwelling. the significant amount of staff time. we have had staff review and write the letter of determination, multiple appeal hearings and the appellant is unwilling to provide adequate information to the ford -- board and we find that extremely offensive. thank you. >> thank you. commissioners i had wanted to work with commissioner honda to try get the mls information he was looking on the overhead so you can all see it and it would be on the record. the way his computer s it's not possible. i know sometimes he brings his ipad to the meeting. it's important that everybody here see the same information. perhaps if you can work with the commissioner and let them know what the web address is. >> give him the ipad to play with. is there any way to make it bigger? >> yeah. sorry. >> i understand. that's why the commissioner is presented to what you received. i'm definitely going to give you an opportunity to respond whatever it is here. >> we s
are spent on this where it's very clear all along when the appellant knew from day one it was legally two units. the report from 1997 revert to two family dwelling. the significant amount of staff time. we have had staff review and write the letter of determination, multiple appeal hearings and the appellant is unwilling to provide adequate information to the ford -- board and we find that extremely offensive. thank you. >> thank you. commissioners i had wanted to work with commissioner...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 19, 2013
05/13
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unit. it's got to be removed. there is no way to legalize it. any kind of speculation that it's an effort to get more rent out of the unit is just irrelevant and there is no factual basis for it to begin with. i would just vote to deny the appeal and uphold the permit. >> i -- concur. >> i have been warned not to involve in tenant situations. if you have a non-permitted illegal unit down, but at the same time i believe that nov should be issued on the property as well. just to ensure the unit is actually being removed. rather than the threat of it being removed. >> well, the fact that this has been brought to the attention of the dbi might lead to scrutiny. if there is some gain ship happening here in order to wrongfully evict the appellant, the appellant, i think at least there would be some monitoring of that aspect. because that could well be the case. i wouldn't doubt it myself. i think i would agree with commissioner hurtado that we don't have a basis that that is happening and there is no way to legalize that unit in this way. so, i would l
unit. it's got to be removed. there is no way to legalize it. any kind of speculation that it's an effort to get more rent out of the unit is just irrelevant and there is no factual basis for it to begin with. i would just vote to deny the appeal and uphold the permit. >> i -- concur. >> i have been warned not to involve in tenant situations. if you have a non-permitted illegal unit down, but at the same time i believe that nov should be issued on the property as well. just to...
SFGTV: San Francisco Government Television
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May 4, 2013
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the kinds of different kinds of housing, in terms of sizes, and we see the resistance to legalizing inlaw units and i think that is a huge mistake for our city to not acknowledge the importance of inlaw units. so we see a lot of people talking about we want to have more affordbility and more options but every option has the pile on and it gets dragged down and so here we are with a market that is not working for anybody in this city, unless you are a home owner who bought a long time ago or a renter who is fortunate enough to have rented a long time ago. >> i am hope to the changes to the lottery once it resumes again. i do not believe that we should be making changes that impact the current tic owners, which i think that those occur under the current legislation. it is one thing to have something where changes are purely prospective and i don't think that is what we have today, and i also do believe that it is a moratorium should be key off of the actual number of people who participate in the bypass because we do not know what that exact number will be. and i think one of the final speakers t
the kinds of different kinds of housing, in terms of sizes, and we see the resistance to legalizing inlaw units and i think that is a huge mistake for our city to not acknowledge the importance of inlaw units. so we see a lot of people talking about we want to have more affordbility and more options but every option has the pile on and it gets dragged down and so here we are with a market that is not working for anybody in this city, unless you are a home owner who bought a long time ago or a...
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May 27, 2013
05/13
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united states? >> as a practical matter, applying the irish legal standard of central management and control, i believe that it is centrally managed and controlled from the united states. >> does apple agree that it is functionally managed and controlled in united states? >> under irish law -- >> under our law, do you believe that? >> i don't believe that central management and control is a legal term under u.s. law. >> do you believe it is functionally managed and controlled in the 90s eight? >> yes. >> mr. cook? >> we have significant .mployees in ireland there is a significant amount of decision and leadership and negotiations back on in ireland. some of the most strategic ones ones do take place in the united states. >> which you agree that asi is managed and controlled in the united states? >> from a practical matter, i don't have a legal definition. >> as a practical matter, you agree it is functionally managed and controlled in the night is a? >> yes, senator. >> thank you. aoi things incorporated in ireland, correct? >> yes, it is incorporated in ireland. >> where is aoi a tax resident? >> it d
united states? >> as a practical matter, applying the irish legal standard of central management and control, i believe that it is centrally managed and controlled from the united states. >> does apple agree that it is functionally managed and controlled in united states? >> under irish law -- >> under our law, do you believe that? >> i don't believe that central management and control is a legal term under u.s. law. >> do you believe it is functionally...
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May 23, 2013
05/13
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a visual account of this letter that was sent to capitol hill in very specific detail legally about why the united states thinks these drone attacks are legal. >> all right. tracie potts with the latest. thank you so much. >>> now to oklahoma where the ef-5 tornado's damage toll could be upwards of $2 billion. all 24 victims have been identified now. and today the first funeral for one of the child victims as the community of moore begins its long road to recovery. nbc's sara daaloff joins us live from moore. good morning to you. how is day three shaping up and putting 13,000 homes that are estimated here back together? >> reporter: good morning, richard. you know, the day is shaping up not really well right now. we've got heavy rains all morning and lightning storms rolling through. that is definitely going to hamper the effort of the cleanup today. i want to show you what these crews are dealing with behind me. you're looking at what used to be the bowling alley of moore. we've actually seen some of the bowling balls here in the rubble, but other than that, it's pretty much unrecognizable. twist
a visual account of this letter that was sent to capitol hill in very specific detail legally about why the united states thinks these drone attacks are legal. >> all right. tracie potts with the latest. thank you so much. >>> now to oklahoma where the ef-5 tornado's damage toll could be upwards of $2 billion. all 24 victims have been identified now. and today the first funeral for one of the child victims as the community of moore begins its long road to recovery. nbc's sara...
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May 25, 2013
05/13
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. >> and tell me why the chief legal office of the united states, eric holder does not uphold the constitutionworry that. >> we have to leave it there. we'll answer that next week. one democrat using the oklahoma twister to blast republicans who don't support the global warming agenda and taxpayers can get taught in the political storm. >> the damage that your polluters and deniers are doing doesn't just hit oklahoma alabama and texas. one thing that hasn't changed much is the official retirement age. ♪ the question is how do you make sure you have the money you need to enjoy all of these years. ♪ >> apology not accepted. the democrat wasting no time blaming the massive oklahoma twister on global warming. when cyclones tear up oklahoma and hurricane and bum scombum wildfires scorch texas, you come to us, the rest of the country for billions of dollars to recover. and the damage your polluter and deniers are doing doesn't just hit oklahoma, obama and texas. >> senator sheldon whitehouse making that statement after the deadly twister hit. he said he's sorry. >> johnathon taxpayers will be sorry?
. >> and tell me why the chief legal office of the united states, eric holder does not uphold the constitutionworry that. >> we have to leave it there. we'll answer that next week. one democrat using the oklahoma twister to blast republicans who don't support the global warming agenda and taxpayers can get taught in the political storm. >> the damage that your polluters and deniers are doing doesn't just hit oklahoma alabama and texas. one thing that hasn't changed much is the...
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May 26, 2013
05/13
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FBC
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me why the chief legal office of the united states does not uphold the constitution. answer that. >> we will have to leave it there. that's a good question and we will answer that next week. >> coming up, democrat using the oklahoma twister to support the republicans who don't support the global warming agenda. taxpayers can get caught in this political storm. >> the damage that your polluters and deniers are doing doesn't just hit oklahoma and alabama and texas. attention - americans living with limited mobility. what do you do when you can no longer get around like you used to? when you fear losing your independence? who do you call? call hoveround now, to see if you qualify for america's premier power chair. hi, i'm tom kruse, inventor and founder of hoveround. now you can do more, see more, enjoy life more. here's why hoveround makes it easier than any other power chair. hoveround is more maneuverable to get you through the tightest doors and hallways. more reliable. hoveround employees build your chair, deliver your chair, and will service your chair for as long
me why the chief legal office of the united states does not uphold the constitution. answer that. >> we will have to leave it there. that's a good question and we will answer that next week. >> coming up, democrat using the oklahoma twister to support the republicans who don't support the global warming agenda. taxpayers can get caught in this political storm. >> the damage that your polluters and deniers are doing doesn't just hit oklahoma and alabama and texas. attention -...
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May 22, 2013
05/13
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united states? >> applying the irish legal standard of control, i believe that it is centrally managed and controlled in the united states. >> does apple agree that it is feng shui managed and controlled in the united states? >> under irish law. >> under our law do you believe that? >> i do not believe that central management and control is a legal term under u.s. tax laws. >> you believe it is feng shui managed and controlled in the united states? >> yet. >> mr. cook, do you agree? >> we have employees in ireland. some of the most strategic wants to take place in the united states. >> you agree that the balance is functionally managed and controlled in the united states? direct from a practical matter, i don't know the legal definition. >> would you agree that it is functionally managed and controlled in the united states? >> yes, senator. >> okay. thank you. >> now, mr. bullock, aoi is incorporated in ireland. is that correct? >> yes, mr. chairman, it is incorporated in ireland. >> where is aoi a tax resident? >> well, it does not have a tax residency. that does not mean that it does not pay taxes.
united states? >> applying the irish legal standard of control, i believe that it is centrally managed and controlled in the united states. >> does apple agree that it is feng shui managed and controlled in the united states? >> under irish law. >> under our law do you believe that? >> i do not believe that central management and control is a legal term under u.s. tax laws. >> you believe it is feng shui managed and controlled in the united states? >>...
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May 26, 2013
05/13
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me why the chief legal office of the united states does not uphold the constitution.nswer that. >> we will have to leave it there. that's a good question and we will answer that next week. >> coming up, decrat using the oklahoma twister to support the repuicans who don't support the global warming agenda. taxpayers can get caught in this political storm. >> the damage that your poll thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't create the future... by clinging to the past. and with that: you're history. instead of looking behind... delta is looking beyond. 80 thousand of us investing billions... in everything from the best experiences below... to the finest comforts above. we're not simply saluting history... we're making it. to flhome or the big family reunion. you must be garth's father? hello. mother. mother! traveling is easy with the venture card because you can fly airline anytime. two words. double miles! this guy can act. wanna play dodge rock? oh, you guys! and with double miles you can actuay use, you never miss t
me why the chief legal office of the united states does not uphold the constitution.nswer that. >> we will have to leave it there. that's a good question and we will answer that next week. >> coming up, decrat using the oklahoma twister to support the repuicans who don't support the global warming agenda. taxpayers can get caught in this political storm. >> the damage that your poll thank you orville and wilbur... ...amelia... neil and buzz: for teaching us that you can't...