general shinseki was right. that was 2007, by which time there was a race under way to succeed president bush in office. and when senator obama was president-elect, he let it be known that the man he would be bringing back to washington to run the veterans affairs would be general eric shinseki, the man who was right. he would be bringing him back to washington and putting him in charge of the v.a.. >> when i reflect on the sacrifices that have been made by our veterans and i think about how so many veterans around the country are struggling, even more than those who have not served. higher unemployment rates, higher homeless rates, higher substance abuse rates, medical care that is inadequate. it breaks my heart. and i think that general shinseki is exactly the right person whose going to be able to make sure that we honor our troops when they come home. >> "the washington post" that day writing up that announcement about eric shinseki being put in charge of the v.a. by the new incoming democratic president. "t

the briefing room today, and at the briefing room today at 11:15 to discuss his meeting with general shinseki, and they have been meeting all morning long and we just gotten word that we will hear from the president, and to your point though about the urgency, and shinseki has been in the position for six years and the problems with the v.a. system were noted well before that, and in part of the job was to improve the system. now, we see that it was not the case, and his new comments today, he said that perhaps he put trust and competence in the wrong people, and some would say, well, that is the sign of the bad leader and the job is to put the right people in place to fix the problem. granted, he has laid out a few ideas today, but the key word that i am picking up on is urgency, and a lot of the vets and the families are disturbed by the lack of urgency across the board in remedying these problems and not just with general shinseki. >> the bureaucratic rigidity and the failure is the product of the people who shouldn't be there, and the people who should be shown the door and people who urg

>> we agree it is a complex issue but the reason, why was general shinseki hired? he was hired to come into the va, take the leadership that he had in the military, bring it forth into the va, and make these problems go away. this isn't something that's new. there was a memorandum in 2010 that outlined this exact problem. so they had four years to do something about this, but we have seen failed leadership there. >> megyn? >> this is a military, then you relief the duty if it's a private sector, you're fired. >> go ahead, ralph. >> megyn, this is really, really, really, really hard. it takes time to fix it. you need to fire people but beyond that, you know, it breaks my heart that our vets are being treated so badly, but suddenly, it's a crisis. general shinseki has made some improvements. where was the outrage during the buescher ras. i'm not a defender of president obama by any means, but this is a long-standing problem. >> let me ask you this because i get that. so why didn't barack obama come out this week and say we knew about this. we were informed when i too

you have a call for the attorney general to launch a criminal probe but also calls for shinseki's headter some of the people now calling for his resignation were very careful about that early on. this inspector general's report has convinced some of those who were holding off that indeed, it is time for shinseki to go. >> mike emanuel on capitol hill. breaking news coverage continues. john mccain and jeff flake both of arizona both calling for this decorated war hero to either step down or be kicked out because of what appears to john mccain to be criminal activity. our senior judicial analyst, judge napolitano is on the phone with us now. does this accusation rise to the level of criminal and how high does it rise? >> i think it clearly rises to the level of criminal, think about it, the documents people had to fill out in any communication they sent to the veterans or any recording they did with the veterans are federal documents. the intentional falsifying of information on a document the federal government requires you to prepare, is standing alone, a crime, even if no one is harme

>> when the president came into office he appointed general shinseki to the post. he was confirmed by the senate to hold that post. and secretary shinseki's leadership, began tackling challenges that our veterans faced and v.a. faced in providing service to our veterans. what the specific review around the allegations associated with the phoenix facility and now other facilities is meant to do and assess where we are now given these allegations and what needs to be done to improve areas where we are not performing, where the v.a. is not performing and build upon those areas where there have been successes and improvements in performance. >> does the united states anticipate retaliatory accusations made by countries, including china when it comes to cyber crime? >> on that specific question. on the cyber issue, i think that retaliation specifically would be inappropriate. the individuals charged, and i would refer you to the department of justice, were of the ith violations law and should absolutely face those charges. this is not a political tit for tat situation. i

the reason why was general shinseki hired? he was hired to come into the va he brought him into the va and make these problems go away. this isn't something that is new. it was 20010 that outlined this exact problem. we have seen failed leadership there. if this is a venue you relieve the duty. >> this is really, are willy, really hard. it takes time to fix it. it breaks my heart vets are being treated so badly but suddenly it's a crisis. i am not a defender of president obama by any means. this is a long standing problem. >> let me ask you this. i get that. why didn't barack obama come out this week and say he knew about this. this is a severe backlog for patients trying to become backers. they were actively working to cover it up. they were told about that and also about the coverup. why a wouldn't he come out and say this is what we tried to do to stop that though change the system. we are learning now there are failures. we didn't hear that national commanders we heard let's wait for another ig report. >> they already admi

i think it's a story today because it's a big deal because so many have been asking general shinseki to step down, to say they are going to investigate crimes and there's going to be an hr change. this is just, i think, a deflection strategy. the v.a. has been funded generously by both sides and i will call on every single veterans group stand up today and have both parties take a look at this model and consider reforming it for our veterans, right now you hear these politicians talking about veterans, we have to put them in first. we're going to investigate. lots of big promises but until they actually make it an incentive for the performance to be better for these veterans and consider actually rad kael changing and movidÒ9urfÑ0wy;0l this model it will be the exact same thing we've seen year after year, decade after decade. >> because the current model operates as a disincentive for quality care. i know it's a sad day i'm quite certain for a war hero general shinseki who i know really wanted to honorably serve the veterans. tough day for him. >> even up until this morning, general

to you, sir. >> good morning, chuck. >> you've heard the news reports of what general shinseki said is morning on the firing of those top officials. i -- is this enough for you to maybe back off your resignation ask of the general? >> well, first of all, those developments are all positive things we've been asking for, but i think it's important to keep in mind, chuck, that this isn't about secretary shinseki. there's not a question about his character and his service to this nation. it has been impeccable. the question is how do we restore trust amongst our veterans and the american public. for me it's been very obvious, this is a top priority for me as a veteran, as a member of that committee that there need to be changes. the interim report from the inspector general is inexcusable. i know as a military person changes in leadership change the tone of where things are going. so secretary shinseki has done honorable work. i can tell you the trust among the veteran community has been damaged. we need to make sure what happened in phoenix is corrected but as importantly, we need to ma

general shinseki's performance in the military was admirable.learly his performance in the va is not up to par. >> and president obama recognized the problems in the va in 2008 when he was campaigning and spoke specifically about needing to overhaul them and address them. when he appointed general shinseki, he knew he had problems to fix because of all of those veterans coming back with wounds from afghanistan and iraq that needed the va's assistance. the only thing i thought was interesting yesterday in a way was president obama seemed to go closer publicly towards the idea that shinseki may be leaving than he has done in previous cases where people at the top have been under fire and the white house has resolutely stuck by them at least initially. >> as we said at the top of the show, vladimir putin has found a friend. the russian president entered a $400 billion gas deal with the chinese capping over a decade of negotiations. the agreement gives moscow a huge energy market following sanctions that has limited its opportunity with the west. th

general shinseki is an interesting character. he has had amazing responsibility and combat soldier himself, and i have known him for 40 years and my take is something like this, he is not going to leave unless he is told to leave. if he is leaving, it is because he has been asked to resign, but he won't do it voluntarily, and he is one of the kinds of people who will stay at the post until he is dead or dragged away. i think that the conversation is going to revolve around general shinseki's plans to make it better and alleviating the problems that exist now. chris, you mention ed the enormous backlog and it is shorter now than it used to be and one of the reasons that you have backlog that you do from the veterans in iraq and afghanistan is because general shinseki decided, himself, to enfranchise that group of people who said that anybody who has pts or suffers from the effects of agent orange in vietnam and those are enormous groups of people who will get care from the veterans administration, and there were hundreds of applic

he has not made any statement asking general shinseki to resign. i think that is an appropriate head of state that wants to make sure that he has given his selected person every opportunity. us inst of -- those of congress believes that the president did what he should have done. in the initial appointment of general shinseki, a very responsible american and someone who has served his nation and battle, i don't think the president made a mistake when he selected him. i do think now, regrettably, we need another taskmaster. in the hearing, i asked the witnesses come aware of the swat teams? orre of the swat teams targeted to go out with and hit everylls problem to find the issues and begin to fix it? host: let me follow up on one point. is the system to generous? are we providing too much care for veterans who are aging that might have served in world war ii or in south korea or in vietnam and now are getting care 40-50 years later because of normal ailments, not as a direct result of military service? guest: absolutely not. waning years the of worl

veterans affairs secretary-general eric shinseki is out. the general resigned his post just over a month after allegations first surfaced that 40 veterans died while waiting for medical appointments in phoenix. an allegation that led to a watchdog report that found systemic problems at va health care facilities across the nation. president obama announced the general's departure at the white house. >> a few minutes ago secretary inseki offered me his own resignation. with considerable regret i accepted. lou: the president went on to say that politics played a role in his decision. >> we occupy a not just a, an environment that calls for management fixes, we avenue also got to deal with congress and you guys and i think rick's judgment that he could not carry out the next stages of reform, without being a distraction himself. lou: those calls for shinseki to resign had snowballed this week. both republicans and a steady stream of democrats have been calling for his head. but on capitol hill house speaker john boehner today signaled shinseki's

i'm a big admirer of general shinseki. i served on house armed services committee when he was army chief of staff. this guy that left a piece of himself in vietnam fighting for this country. this is a guy what was right about iraq. so i have a lot of admiration. but five years, and we're now finding what looks like systemic criminal -- you got to hold -- >> get to the bottom of this. look, there's an investigation in place. >> when you're padding -- >> there's also some suggestion this goes back beyond the five years that president obama's been in place. so, and to say it's not a congressional issue, it certainly is a congressional issue as to whether or not we're giving the resources to the va to carry out the mandate that congress has set for them. that is to take care of the men and women who come back who leave a piece of them, physically or mentally, back in the country where they served. i disagree with the sense if we're giving them enough money, why are these backlogs taking place? why is it 125 days? >> we've been

john mccain, whom obama beat back in 2008, has called for general shinseki's removal. late today, democratic senators began calling for shinseki's head, as well. tonight, the question hovers over the capital, will the president act on what everyone of both political parties believe is a genuine scandal? chuck todd, nbc news chief white house correspondent and david bennett. gentlemen, first with you, chuck, the politics of this thing, time is everything in politics, timing is. the president made clear a week ago when he set this mouse trap he'd wait until the i.g. reported. the i.g. reported late today with a bad report. the president said if the report was bad, he was going to act. in fact, he said pretty clearly shinseki would act himself to remove himself, in not so many words, but pretty darn clearly. what's the president doing now? >> well, look, they are making it clear, they seem to be creating momentum, if you want to call it that, for shinseki's exit. perhaps it's to give him room to make the decision himself, but when you see the things that they've done behin

what have we learned about the conversation between general shinseki and the president? >> you may think that general shinseki will say to the president, maybe you want me to resign, but he told reporters today, that didn't happen. embattled affairs general shinseki met with the number two democrat to discuss v.a. problems. afterwards, shinseki revealed to reporters that he has not offered the president his resignation saying, you guys know me better than that. v.a. respects are under examination for delays in being seen causing in death to v.a.s three officials didn't show up. >> i don't see any familiar faces from the v.a. and central office. is anybody here from va? >> reporter: the v.a. says they were invited 15 hours earlier and had scheduling conflicts. they turned over 3,000 e-mails at 2:30 in the morning. at phoenix is where the problems first surfaced. today, the president's point person on this, rob nabors visited the facility and someone describes the horror of delay in care just back from war zones. >> we're talking about people being injured by being blown u

general shinseki anything would you like to say about this latest insult to our nation's veterans? >> any adverse incident like this makes me-- makes me mad as hell. coy use stronger language here, mr. chairman. but in difference to the committee i won't. >> no i think that would be an appropriate use of stronger language. perhaps i can also use something. let's dip into the jar and see what we've got [bleep]. >> yeah [bleep] does seem appropriate. you know, i think general shinseki, since you've headed up the va since 2009, five years into your tenure maybe you could rachet up the vocabulary or even use nonverbal signs to better convey the anger you say you feel but did use apparently to get results because you don't look mad, versus the cat might pin his ears back. a harp seal might raise up on its, whatever that thing is that it's raising up on. but a human, a human might move their lips or face. your's mad as hell face looks a lot like oh,-- face (laughter) maybe you could take a page out of australians describing dog interaction guide. >> they came down-- now that guy gets thi

>> ari, i talked to general shinseki. he fired seven people. three in phoenix. one person in wyoming. and another person, make sure i get it right, in durham, north carolina. he is not done. but he need how to get in front as government nor said. out in front of the am scan public. let them know. show them his heart. he is on top of this. that he is, that he is ticked off. and unbelievably pissed about this, i.g. report that he ordered, that shows that this its a systemic issue that there are 26 hospitals that are, under investigation, of the 1700 hospitals and clinics within the va system. but it is unacceptable. the one thing he is doing right now. that we need to point out. he is calling all 1,700 veterans, by close of business this friday, with the name of a private physician, to get taken care of. i know we talked about politics. a news channel. my concern like brother and sisters concern is, making sure we are taking care of veterans. the 1700 on this phantom waiting list and any one who didn't get the care that they have earned. >> yeah, congressman on th

that the president says he's going to announce shortly. >> colonel jack, on the phone you know general shinseki very well, was this unavoidable at this stage? >> i think it was. it was a series of things that made it absolutely impossible for the president to carry on with shinseki. the report -- all of the problems were not isolated in one spot, they are widespread, followed by democrats abandoning shinseki and the president for keeping him on. that on top of a large number of veterans saying same thing made it difficult if not impossible for the president to keep him on. that's why he's gone. i know -- i also know sloan gibson, he's a very talented guy, but he is going to have to for the interim period at least, going to have to deal with the dysfunction of the structure itself and unless he has the capability to hire and fire, to demand more money, to reorganize the whole place himself, he's not going to do a whole lot better in the interim. whoever replaces shinseki and gibson would be nuts to take the job without widespread authority to do what he thinks is necessary in order to reorganize

you know that general shinseki served admirably in uniform.n't do this characteristically, but i want to start with the white house because i think that this is potentially the most devastating scandal to affect the obama administration and i'll tell you why. >> really? >> because it speaks to competence. if indeed they can prove or -- and i believe they should bring the f.b.i. now to probe this, possibility of criminal acts, if they can prove the double books and that the books were cooked, if they can prove that the administration of the veterans administration, including the hero general shinseki -- and i told you last week how i hold him in the highest regard and hearing about this master sergeant who passed from the sniper's bullet, these people that serve and are wounded in action and continue to serve, they are deserving of our admiration, our love, our compassion. but if they can prove a systematic failure within the veterans administration, the largest integrated health care system in the country, 6.5 million patients of the system, i

general shinseki knows the military, knows veterans, knows how to run a large organization but it's notk force is a prisoner to unions. if you want to reform va, don't fire shinseki, give him the authority to fire the under performers. what about the people in phoenix that need to be fired? obama won't do that. enslaved to the federal union. >> yeah, we all know that it is not easy to terminate a government employee, pete? >> colonial peters is right. secretary shinseki, he could push more against the grain and pound his fist on the desk and try to do more to force the hand of the administration but hasn' gone in and really tried to do a lot about it except throw more money at the problem. the problem is managers and employees cannot be fired from the department of veterans affairs, the house and senate to change that and when secretary shinseki goes and he will soon, you got to replace him with someone outside the system empowered with the tools to do it, to reform a va that is good at overwhelming secretaries which is what happened here with shinseki. >> shannon, only -- >> quick, we'

when general shinseki said, no, it wouldn't, he was ridiculed by paul wolfowitz and donald rumsfeld and so we didn't prepare for this. and if you go back and you take a look at where we were in 2008 and where we are now, we're not where we need to be. but we're much better off than we are. >> i'm appalled at all of this because all of you have missing one point. the backlog that started a lot of this mess was not the current wars. it was vietnam veterans allowed in in 2009 because they were never recognized for agent orange illness. never recognized by the v.a. for agent orange illness. that's where the backlog started and where the treatment came in. it's not your afghan and iraq wars. let's not talk about that. that's not even part of the topic. let's not mix messages here. this isn't a republican issue. this is not a democrat issue. this is a veterans issue. that's a slap in the face to all veterans when you indicate -- >> i'm going to shock you. we agree on something. agent orange should have been a part of this thing from the whole beginning and it was eric shinseki that brought it

. >> let me play for you a little piece of the sound that we heard from general shinseki, if i can. >> sbintegrity is irresponsible and i have asked for removal of all of the v.a. leaders, and we will enforce accountability for those who have tolerated or been responsible for the improper scheduling practices at the phoenix v.a. >> and let me hear what you heard from him and did he go far enough? >> yes, what he said is what has happened is beyond words and irreprehensible and those people responsible have to be fired as quickly as possible, tomorrow the, and those practices have to be eliminated. what i also want to say is that we need to pass the accountability bill and which have one that is going to make sense and try to get it up on the floor in a couple of days, but furthermore, "the new york times" reported that at the heart of the issue, chris, is the fact that people don't lie just because they lie, it is because we need more nurses and physicians in the v.a. system and it is part of the overall crisis, and it is a issue that the veterans committee will focus on as well. if w

general shinseki said i'm really mad as hell. >> he is from hawaii, someone told me. that is exactly why this mild mannered sort of -- i think there is anger there, no question about it. it is that kind of gentle manner that both of them have in common. gwen: we're going to see whether politics overtakes the facts. we'll what happens after that. ok, it seems straightforward enough. if chinese hackers are infiltrating your computer systems, why not do everything you can to stop them? but what if they accuse you of doing the same thing? and what if the accused hackers are not private sector tech geeks but agents of the chinese government? for the u.s. justice department, that spells indictment. but to what end, pete? >> well, in the past, the government says, any time they confront the chinese and say you're spying on american companies, they say where is the proof. the justice department said here is the proof in public, the first time the u.s. has ever charged officials of a foreign nation with using cyber tools to hack on american companies. and think of how extraord

but i was surprised by his responses yesterday with regard to moving on general shinseki generally. d and saying shinseki must go. but it was a revealing interview with the congressman yesterday. at the hearing last night that i attended, he was a lot more robust and less partisan in his questioning. >> maybe you got him fired up because you went down there with thousands of e-mail. you printed them all out so that they could take a look at it. what's extraordinary is you talked to him before the hearing, but after the i.g. report came out and the i.g. report, which was final, on the phoenix situation was very clear. 1700 vets thought they were on waiting lists, but they were not. i mean, that was clear. the wait time was not 24 days. it was 115 days. >> right. and the critical part of that report is they said it was systemic. the office of the inspector general is now looking at more than 40 v.a. medical centers across the united states. so it's not only phoenix. a lot of these members were asking, is it my district? is it my district? great concerns by congress last night. >> the h

>> i think there's some folks out there, chris, taking pot shots at general shinseki. of staff of the army, four-star general, he didn't make friends standing up to the bush administration and saying before we go to the iraq war, we need several hundred thousand troops and rumsfeld and his deputy said that basically the next day publicly said the general's wildly off the mark. so again, there's detractors to begin with. but i think most folks, democrats and republicans, understand that general shinseki, his heart is on his sleeve with veterans. yes, soft spoken. yes, not known as this, you know, butt kicker. he is a guy that gets things done and moves the ball forward. i think that's why, you know, jeff miller, the republican ranking member of the veterans house, veterans affairs committee, speaker boehner did not call for the resignation. others have. let's make the people and hold them accountable now. >> patrick murphy, good to have you on the program. thank you. >> thank you, chris. i appreciate it. >>> coming up, the nigerian president canceled the trip to the home

i don't think general shinseki was a surprise. but i think that was today. >> the timing was a surprise. because two resignations, big resignation was in one day like this rarely happened in an administration. so it was a surprise in that sense. but most of us were expecting jay carney to leave relatively soon. the word on the hill and on -- in the white house was that he was wanting to leave by summertime and had been talking about it but the time something a little strange. i think some people suggested this was sort to distract everyone from shinseki, i don't know who is distracting who here. it looks like a lot of calamity in the white house. >> especially, you can't deny, this is extremely stressful job, when you look at the list of press secretaries, no one really lasts more than four years. they are in and out fairly quickly. who could blame them? >> the other career, need to get out before the administration so you could transition to a new job. they all did that for career reasons. panel, thank you. >> let's go off-the-re

general shinseki has been there for six years. he has not been able to get his grip on this. the president's press conference sounded exactly like what he talked about in 2000 seven. it is really time for a shakeup and for some real issues. in terms of what was done this weekend and what was announced in terms of veterans been able to go to private doctors and hospitals, i think it is great. we been calling on this for a long time. i introduced a bill similar to this. i'm also meant to say, what took so long? this is not a new issue terms of the backlog. it is not an issue in terms of the fact that there were secret waiting lists created, which is a whole other level of in competency to the level of criminality. >> is that something you're certain of horses issues about? >> i'm not a lawyer and i'm kind of out of that. if you have a fake waiting list to make your numbers look better and protector bonuses and job in protecting those that have protected us, frankly, i think that is numeral negligence. we're talking about a year or two backlog. that was incompetent and bureaucra

john boehner would rather blame president obama than blame general shinseki. i think what everyone is looking for is an exit strategy. shinseki is going to deliver his own evaluations of the problem to the president in the very near future. if i had to guess, they're looking for some way for him to resign. don't forget, general shinseki is a decorated war hero. i think there needs to be a certain amount of dignity assigned to this. this is a president probably looking for that way but they've given every signal starting with the president himself when he said he was holding him accountable and starting with signals from the white house it's clear he's probably going to have to leave. >> you spent time going through this preliminary inspector general's report on the phoenix v.a. facility. what's your take? >> my take is phoenix is worse than we thought and the problem nationwide is bigger than we thought. when we're talking about four different schemes that people in the v.a. were using to manipulate data and trick veterans into thinking they had an appointment

looks like. >> something the president has not committed to signing, representative hunter, that general shinseki appears to be against. why do we need a bill that allows shinseki to fire people? that's the kind of bureaucracy that operates in washington? you have to pass a specific bill to get president obama to sign for them to start firing incompetents. >> incredible and in michigan angry because it's fathers, daughters, sons, brothers, people that sacrificed for this nation and to see the president pull, this every single government organization is run like this believe it or not. every single one is run like this but nobody dies, so we don't hear about it. that's the only difference. this is what government bureaucracy brings you and probably one reason that obama doesn't want to fix it too badly is because this is what obamacare is going to look like in about ten years. this is government-run health care. this is how it's done. it's not compassion et. it's bureaucratic and this should make the american people angry, and i think it is. >> pete, the president said he needs to wait for a repor

and replacing general shinseki is not going to change that. in fact, in a moment of wisdom none other than speaker of the house john boehner made exactly that point today. >> the question i ask myself is him resigning going to get us to the problem of the problem? is it going to help us find out what's really going on? and the answer i keep getting is no. >> of course he then went on to blame the president, which again misses the point entirely. so close, john boehner, so close. joining me now, congressman jim himes, democrat from connecticut. congressman, you've called i understand for eric shinseki to resign. why do you want to see him go? >> well, chris, it wasn't a decision i arrived at lately. general shinseki is a good man who has served his country his whole life. wounded in vietnam. but he has presided over an organization now which, as you pointed out just a moment ago, in phoenix left 1,700 veterans behind. now, that's bad enough. and god only knows what happened to those veterans. as you point out, the allegations of deaths and what

there are growing calls for eric shinseki to resign after an inspector general report confirmed there were secret waiting lists for veterans trying to get medical care at the phoenix va hospital. gop lawmakers stepping up their calls for answers. >> they have known about it. they ignored it just as they ignored the jobs bill sitting in the senate. this is opportunity for one to get this done right, how we treat our veterans is direct correlation what we think as americans. they defend our freedom. this is the way to get treated. when you get asked the question, you say you are just now finding out about it? jenna: republicans with the grit system. chief congressional correspondent mike emanuel is live with more. mike, calls for new leadership really are growing louder. who is behind this? >> reporter: well, jenna, you've got some senate democrats who are up for re-election and some key national security republicans calling for eric shinseki to leave his post as secretary of the va. question what house democratic leader nancy pelosi will say. she is due to address reporters momentarily

future. >> i have not called for general shinseki to resign. although i have to admit, i'm getting closer. but here is the points, this sudden about one person. thithis sudden about the secret. this is -- this isn't about one person, this isn't about the secretary, this is about the sim under him. lou: president note in town today, he was at hall of fame in coopers town, pushing easier entry for foreign tourists into the united states before he jetted off to chicago for 2 2 2e dnc fundraisers, using sports s in which to take refuge, from politics, dropping by a little league gable monday, hosting seahawks yesterday before today haheading off to the hall of fa, opposition rising from republicans now his fellow democrats, who have been reliable up until now, two georgia democrats are blasting the president for not firing general shinseki, congressman john barrel and david scott unloading on president obama for his lack of leadership. >> i listen to the president today, i was very disappointed with president obama today. there of no urgency, mr. p