i would say if weissmann says it, it's worthying about. one more quick point, they had to go methodically through the 850 people who were on the ground, but at this point when they're dealing with team crazy and trump, they could, in fact, do a little pole vaulting here. >> ryan, that's kind of the long game. let me bring it back to the hearing we're going to see in about an hour and 45 minutes. so much of the hearings previously have hung on the credibility of previous witnesses, and i would say notably hutchinson, who was so impressive and so detailed. like many before her, she also had been very loyal to donald trump. tell us what we know about today's witnesses, their loyalty, their credibility. >> one of the witnesses is actually a former member of the oepgt keepers, the reformed member, so to speak, who is going to offer an historical look at the oath keepers as an organization. he's been out of the oath keepers for a while. so i don't think we're going to hear anything directly about january 6th. the one i'm really interested in is

when andrew weissmann talks about mob-like behavior, he knows of what he speaks. the federal prosecutor, who led the case, against vincent vinny the chin gigante, all those years ago, was none other than andrew weissmann. so, when we start to grapple with what looks like yet another instance of potential trump world witness tampering, there is only one person who has the kind of unique experience to tell us how we should be thinking about this. joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior member of special counsel robert mueller's investigative team. he's the author of, where law ends, inside the mueller investigation. he's currently a professor at nyu law school. and he's older than he looks because of the vinny the chin stuff. sorry to out you for that, andrew. but it is a relevant piece of information. let's bring it into the present now. we've talked a lot about the past. you are familiar with donald trump's many attempts to obstruct and interfere in the investigation that you were a part of, the special counsel, robert mueller

i'd be very curious about andrew weissmann's views on, up to me that's part of the story. pence's aides have heard the story, but i think everybody should hear from him himself. >> that's a good point, because the grand jury is a totally different by my from the congressional committee. the graduate is 100% private. the vice president's testimony is absolutely secret and can only be revealed in a later court proceeding where there might be a statement from the grand jury that is quoted and so, there is no spectacle aspect to it, but there is a huge historic influx to the point that, do is subpoena the vice president? that decision to go all the way up to the attorney general. >> that's exactly right. the grand jury is the opposite of a spectacle. it is truly a fact finding body. and if i'm donald trump right now lawrence, i think the increasing pace in broad and scope of the investigation which carroll just confirmed tonight and in even broader language that is in the washington post story, all of that would make me nervous if i'm donald trump. looks like the department of

our panel is back, andrew weissmann, you know the players. nonlawyers after watching the public presentation of evidence by the january 6th committee. why do you think doj didn't start with this kind of investigation new detail? >> so, i think some of that is a failure of imagination, and i think some of that is a failure of backbone. i think that looking at january 6th in terms of what happened that day and the people who invaded the capitol led to a sort of myopic focus on those events and then proceeding up the chain. and i think there is a leaving to other offices, whether it's the manhattan district attorney's office, or the new york attorney general's office, or the georgia state criminal authorities, other prongs of what could be viewed as essential conspiracy, but i think the power of the january 6th committee is the fact that they looked at this from the perspective of what was donald trump trying to accomplish? and all of the various means, whether it's pressuring georgia officials, whether it's pressuring the vice president, whethe

andrew weissmann was one of the senior prosecutors on the robert mueller team at the time. he wrote in his book, quote, we were watching the president mirror the behavior of criminals -- not just by prioritizing loyalty to him personally over loyalty to the law, but by dangling certain rewards and punishments to backup such demands. mobsters use the threat of whacking potential cooperators to keep everyone in line. the president had the power to pardon, to reward those who stayed loyal. and here's the thing. when andrew weisman talks about mob like behavior, he knows of what he speaks. the federal prosecutor, who led the case, against vincent vinny the chin gigante, all those years ago, was none other than andrew weissmann. so, when we start to grapple with what looks like yet another instance of potential trump world witness tampering, there is only one person who has the kind of unique experience to tell us how we should be thinking about this. joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior member of special counsel robert mueller's investig

but i would be very surprised if we don't see that in short order. >> andrew weissmann, and climates mccaskill, thank you very much for joining us on this chapter of this story. there will be more. thank you very much. >> and coming, up congressman adam schiff joins us with his reaction to the georgia subpoenas, of lindsey graham, rudy giuliani, and john eastman, and what he can tell us about the january six committee's next scheduled hearing, next week. that is next. all night ♪ applebee's late night. because half off is just more fun. now that's eatin' good in the neighborhood. there's a monster problem and our hero needs solutions. so she starts a miro to brainstorm. “shoot it?” suggests the scientists. so they shoot it. hmm... back to the miro board. dave says “feed it?” and dave feeds it. just then our hero has a breakthrough. "shoot it, camera, shoot a movie!" and so our humble team saves the day by working together. on miro. and it's easier than ever to get your projects done right. with angi, you can connect with and see ratings and reviews. and when you book and pay throug y

mike schmit, andrew weissmann. thank you. claire sticks around. former investigator john wood is our guest on the committee's work and his contribution to the long hours of testimony that we've seen and what likely is ahead for the next phase of the january 6 committee. plus marco rubio calls the need to protect americans' right to marry whoever they would like to marry is a, quote, stupid waste of time and we'll have pete buttigieg's clapback. how january 6th continues to tear away at the republican party with two conservative outlets slamming the ex-president, all of that and more after "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. stay with us. house" continues after a quick break. break. stay with us scale across all your clouds... we got that right? yeah, we got that. it's easier to be an innovator. so you can do more incredible things. [whistling] i brought in ensure max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. uhh... here, i'll take that! yay!!! ensure max protein, with 30 grams of pr

carol leonnig, philip rucker, andrew weissmann and of course your dog who joined us sleeping. andrew has a huge, beautiful apartment. we've seen it many times. and i love the fact that when the cameras roll, he's like i've got to get in there, i think that's fantastic. thank you all. coming up, as house democrats fight to protect abortion rights, one is willing to build a fire wall for abortion at a local level. what does that even look like? we are going to ask the person building it. later, more questions and anger and you've all day after the blistering report on law enforcement's failed response to the shooting. texas state senator roland gutierrez here on what he is hearing from the families tonight. the 11th hour just getting underway on a very busy thursday, tuesday, i don't even know what day it is. i wish that shaq was my real life big brother. what's up, little bro? turns out, some wishes do come true. and it turns out the general is a quality insurance company that's been saving people money for nearly 60 years. for a great low rate, and nearly 60 years of quality c

i completely, by the way, agree with andrew weissmann's piece.one who hasn't read that should because the point he's making is the department of justice needs to see this as an ongoing conspiracy, hub and spoke, and i think they will have a very, very strong case if they pursue that. if they learn the lesson of the mueller investigation which is you must be aggressive. leave nothing on the table, and -- and that's what i'm hoping is going to happen. you said something a little bit earlier. >>> that i wanted to underline. this committee really is putting on a master class for the department of justice. they are step by step laying out the road map for these criminal charges, and they are doing an absolutely masterful job. the question is whether or not merrick garland and his team are up to this kind of challenge. >> i wish we had more time. we'll bring you guys back. we'll keep the debate going between kate and glen. i want to say one final world. the only reason richard nixon didn't go to prison is because gerald ford pardoned him. let's just re

joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior member of special counsel robert mueller's legal team and currently investigative msnbc analyst. andrea, thank you for joining us tonight. i want to circle back to something you were just talking about a moment ago, the news out of georgia. what do you think of fulton county da fani willis to sending these target letters to several prominent georgia republicans, telling them that they may be indicted in trump's fake electors scheme? >> so, one thing i was very interested to hear was that the federal level is quite similar, historically, target letters were commonly issued to put people on notice, that charges could be brought, it lets people know that they should have counsel -- they can make a decision about whether they should testify, they can assert the -- amendment. when i was a young prosecutor, the target letters, first when i was trained, i was told that target letters were euphemistically known as heart attack letters. one of the ways they could be useful is when you send them out, it really is a shot

, we just need to have someone coordinating the electors for states. >> joining us now is andrew weissmanniminal division in the eastern district of new york. he is a professor of practice at and why you law school. and andrew, there is so much for a former prosecutor to deal with in today's avalanche of news about this but let's begin with what we have learned from the washington post just in the last couple of hours. this reads to me, as if donald trump is a subject of a criminal investigation. a federal criminal investigation. >> you are right. that is the short answer. and lawrence, i think you are doing yourself a disservice because within your interview with carole, she said something that went further than the washington post article. and what i'm getting at is, the definition of a subject of an investigation is a technical term under the department of justice manual the justice manual, and it is quite broad. it can't include anybody who is actually a participant in a meeting, whether they have criminal liability or not. so it can be somewhat of a misleading term. but i think your i

moved up to hierarchy in terms of charges, but they have been criticize, especially from andrew weissmannia investigation, where he talks about the bottom up approach. we often hear the colloquial term about lose the big fish is the approach of those 800 plus indictments, and there are low level actors, compared to the president of the united states, is that approach flawed? >> i don't think it is. i agree with andrew weissmann that if the justice department is not looking at the broad range of activity that donald trump engaged in and others engaged in in the wake of the election leading up to january six, that would look like it has a certain institutional blunder on in fact, we know the justice department has executed search warrants against john eastman, one of the people who was helping the president plot the fake electors. >> the spin memo we all read about. >> there has been a search warrant executed eastman. there has been a search warrant executed against jeffrey clark, the official who trump tried to install as the acting attorney general. >> these were quite recent. they were a

i want to go a little bit backwards, andrew weissmann, we had a chance to talk to you last night withl and nicole and all of us, but i want to reiterate a little bit what have we talked about last night because for me as a lay person, as a non-lawyer, i can see the thread to seditious conspiracy because it seems to me that everything that's happened so far, everything that the proud boys and oath keepers have been charged for only benefit one markings and now that we know that trump wasn't inactive, he was active. he was actually use the 187 minutes as like the stall time to get his plan to work, to get pence to do what he wanted. i cannot see how he could not be charged with something and yet, you know, merrick garland said the right thing. this the cut five. this is five. this is-maker garland speak recently. >> no person is above the law in this country. nothing stops us. >> even a former president? >> maybe i can say that again. no person is above the law in this country. i can't say it any more clearly than that. >> rachel last night says that's his version of screaming. andrew w

drops these teasing items at the end, and it's calculated to raise interest, but people like andrew weissmann, and chuck rosenberg have said this does not rise to the level of criminality because it was an attempt. there was no phone call actually made. tell us what you think. >> yeah, it doesn't get through. it's certainly something to look at, but in terms of prosecution, that's going to be a pretty high bar just trying to make an attempted call. we don't know exactly the context of that discussion. we don't know what the former president wanted to say in that instance. i think that's not something we could see a criminal prosecution come from right now, but it fits a broader pattern. >> exactly, it's the pattern that we've seen already. and we know it's happened with cassidy hutchinson and some of the other witnesses. we don't know who this witness. >> we've seen more reporting come out basically saying, trying to discredit her by saying she wanted some sort of financial help. what's sort of interesting to me is that a lot of this, they basically are highlighting the fact that they had an

joining me right now is andrew weissmann. he is the former fbi general counsel. he is best known for his most recent probe into russian election interference. andrew, as a former prosecutor, when you hear that text messages from january 5th and sixth 2021 have been deleted somehow, it is not just perk your ears up? >> absolutely. you have to also consider that in the light that we have also heard that the white house has conveniently had a gap in its full logs. it just so happens that the cap is for either january 5th or january six. we are know that those dates have meanings. particularly in light of what cassidy hutchinson testified to about what she heard had been happening with the secret service. they took donald trump from the ellipse. i don't think it is worth everyone taking a deep breath. this is something where it should be possible for the department of justice, if they're interested, to get to the bottom of it. the secret service is saying that this was routine. they say that this was not down in response to anything. it was just a routine upgrade. if

join us now is andrew weissmann former fbi counsel and cnn legal analyst msnbc legal analyst. looked throwing out all sorts of nonsensical defenses a ban and wanted to present. something never happened so nonsensical in pretrial motions there certain angles that lawyers are not allowed to use in trial. but to have bannon's lawyer actually get to the point of saying but then there is no defenses was kind of like a, yeah we kind of knew that from the start. >> that was not the finest moment for a defense lawyer, and the judge agreed, because everyone's entitled to go to trial and our system of justice. there is an odd quirk in d. c. law that is worth noting, which is typically there is a form of reliance on council defense where you get to say i didn't intend to violate the law or do anything wrong because i was relying on advice from. canceled but more to it than that, you get more specific as to why you believed. it that's not the law and the d. c. circuit that is the law. i imagine that's something that could be an appellate issue up to the supreme court if there is a convict

andrew weissmann, and others who are working on the mueller investigations, i think one of the things they did well was work with congress under very difficult circumstances, including with the committees that were controlled by republicans. you really never saw these kinds of outbursts back and forth, and there is frustration mounting inside the department, they wish they had more information, they wish the committee had given no transcripts. but, you have to keep in, mind and others have said this, that the justice department has subpoena power. the justice department can ask people to come in for interviews, and they can be responsive to some of the material that they have seen out in public, just as they often are when public information that comes in available about matters they are looking into. it is not clear that they have taken these sorts of more proactive steps. >> all right, how about something else unusual, phil, a dispute that seems to be brewing between donald trump's lawyers, and steve bannon's lawyers. your paper, the washington post, has some great analysis on. it c

. >> andrew weissmann, if you are a discretionary running a grander like this. and you don't want to interfere with the justice department, and you may in fact want to help the justice department get to where it needs to get, in its investigation, whatould -- is athing you would do differently in your own investigation as a district attorney to try to help the justice department? >> well the states and the federal prosecutors can coordinate. they can permission share what is happening in the grand jury with criminal prosecutors at the state level, and at the federal level. here to pick up on what clare said, if you are the federal government here, it is unusual to see the state proceeding on what really is a prong of the conspiracy that was laid out by the january six committee. and really should be investigated as a whole by the federal government. but one way to do that is to have close coordination. we haven't seen signs of that yet. but i would be very surprised if we don't see that in short order. >> andrew weizmann, and climates casket, thank you very much

i will say this, to what andrew weissmann was saying it is a bit rich to be citing bill barr for anythingce department, considering how badly he disrupted the independence of that office. yes, we are glad that bill barr found a line that he wouldn't cross, but he crossed a lot of lines before he got there. that's not the precedent i would cite, even though that's the policy that the attorney general wants to adopt. finally, rachel, i agree with the assessment, whether it's based on this memo or otherwise, the donald trump believes, among other things, that running for president is lucrative, and it may help him stay one step ahead of the jailer >> yes, and whatever the obscure and contested derivations of the justice department's decision to not bring prosecution has people who are serving as president of the united states. whatever the derivations are of that policy, former president didn't trump feels very, very aware of it, and seems to be factoring it into his political plans, in the midst of your investigation. adam schiff, chair of the house intelligence committee, sir, it's always

joining us now is andrew weissmann, former fbi general --, former senior counsel robert mueller's investigation, and legal analyst for msnbc. andrew thanks for joining us. >> nice to see you. >> i want to get back to the proud boys and the militia group for a second. the first one attack about the big thing that happened today. i was past cipollone's deposition, it went along for nearly eight hours. how significant is all that we know right now all the time that he spent with investigators today and report they came out from one of the committee members that he didn't contradict any testimony from any other witnesses? >> those are all good signs but having been on the other side of this where i knew what the government knew and i listened to the media speculate this is one where we're really going to have to wait till next week. if there are bombshells from this testimony or things that are useful or corroborate of evidence, we are sure going to learn that in the hearings that are coming up. so i think that the amount of time is a certainly a good sign and not contradicting is a good sign. let

i want to bring into the conversation andrew weissmann, former fbi general counsel, former senior membercounsel and robert mueller's investigative team. i want to ask you, andrew, about the other assertion that we had from that person was described as the white house security official, again, we don't know who this is. but as soon as i heard this, i want to ask you about it. that person said, in the other piece of sound that we heard from them, about this idea of the president walking to the capital. we all knew, that person said, what that implicated and what that meant, that this was no longer a rally, that this was gonna move to something else, if you physically walked to the capitol. i don't know if you are used the word insurrection, who, whatever. we all knew that this moved from a normal democratic public event into something else. the president wanted to lead tens of thousands of people to the capitol, that was enough grounds for us to be our alarmed. this is a white house official, a person working at the white house complex that day, saying they believed what if the president w

andrew weissmann has said he thinks that might be another potential element of a crime, that trump liedut it. that he said in his speech that he tried to give himself the excuse he did order the national guard. that appears to be a lie. do you think that that could factor into the doj's investigation in any way? >> i am in the so sure that lying to the public can ever be a crime even though it should, and even though it is an impeachable offense, it is one of the things that the watergate prosecutors gave in the road map to impeachment to the house committee was lies by richard nixon, but the failure to act is a dereliction of duty, and i think that that is something that is worth looking at. i think, us a point out, he used the national guard for his own benefit in a wrongful way, and he did not use them to protect his vice president, to protect any member of congress. the fact that members of congress are forgiving him and forgetting what they did to them is shocking to me, and i think all of these things come together in a one massive conspiracy. >> yeah. >> that includes many tentac

last night andrew weissmann said heads could roll. >> big time! they mentioned one little regulatory crime. but at these guys and know the individual asian snow, and the brass knows, you have to preserve them. we are talking about potential obstruction. and there are ways to get at it. they have some hail mary passes forensically, but also they get witnesses in. to the rank and file. each of the agents was supposed to preserve, even under their standard protocol. did they or didn't they really nobody didn't? and then there is all kinds of finger pointing between the oig and secret service itself. and then there is the facts of what lies behind it. the text could well have shown trump's, get the violence and even the possibility of some kind of nefarious coordination, against mike pence, he was scared to even drive with them, so there is a real possibility of some bad stop there, absolute dereliction, and denying it, and ways to get adults if they are serious basically with witness hearings. i don't think we have learned a lot and i agree with andr

part of his investigation wide open as stated explicitly by one of his top investigators andrew weissmann back in november 2020. quote, we amassed ample evidence to support a charge that trump obstructed justice. that view is widely shared. shortly after our report was issued, hundreds of former prosecutors concluded that the evidence supported such a charge. the evidence includes trump's efforts to influence the outcome of a deliberating jury in the manafort trial and is holding out the hope for a pardon to thwart witnesses from cooperating with our investigation. can anyone even fathom a legitimate reason to dangle a pardon? today in many respects we're seeing history repeat itself with the january 6th committee facing some of those very same questions about the now ex-president and his apparent efforts to obstruct their congressional investigation into his alleged crimes against our democracy. it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends msnbc contributor who has been all over this story this week betsy woodruff swan is here. former assistant for counterint

our friend and former doj prosecutor, andrew weissmann, points out there are likely more still to bessing, white house call logs, secret service texts, dhs texts, rampant use in white house and other agencies of apps like signal that are impermissible for feds to use for business. confident january 6th committee will find more." it's where we start the hour. joining us, neal katyal, former acting u.s. solicitor general, now with georgetown university. and former rnc chairman michael steele. both are msnbc contributors. michael steele, my son already makes fun of me, and he's only 10, for saying, when i was young, but i'm going to do it just this once. when i worked in the white house, we had a computer that the rnc, i think that would be you, paid for, and if we ever turned and wrote a single message that was political in nature or could be, we typed it from that computer, but that, too, was considered a white house record. and i wonder how is this -- how have we devolved to such a degree that acting secretaries, secret service agents, people with national security jobs, people whose

suggest that rather than nibbling around the edges that they might actually put together what andrew weissmann calls the hub and spoke conspiracy kind of cases and my final point is that there's going to be an interesting contrast between what republican officials say in public and in private and what they're privately hoping that merrick garland and the department of justice get them off the hook. donald trump is not just an actor from the republican path. he is the republican future right now, and i think they are hoping for the department of justice somehow to let them off the hook. they won't say that in public. this would -- any sort of charge against the president and the former president would enrage maga world, but there are a lot of republicans including the governor of florida and the former vice president who would have a different reaction in private if, in fact, this moves ahead. >> well, betsy, speaking about being on the hook. donald trump implicates so many others in his criminal conspiracy. i mean, he tells rosen and donohue declare the election corrupt and our congressmen wil