>> i would take andy mccarthy, a very smart lawyer, word on this.duly appointed both by the house of representatives, they do not have subpoena power. of course, the only letters that have been sent demanding documents are just that. they are letters, correspondence, not subpoenas because as andy mccarthy pointed out, the democrats lack subpoena power without the vote. >> martha: juan, i've asked you this question a couple of times. why, if there is such a constitutional crisis, then do with the way it has been done in the past? we have the numbers are richard nixon -- part of the number that richard nixon got when he was going through this process, it was an overwhelming number of republicans and democrats. they all believe that it was the time to go through the process. there is the clinton number in october of 1998, 258-176 members of the house are presented as, representing the people all across america, said yes, please go forward. please do this process. that is the will of the people. why do we not have that now? >> again, the president, even

here with reaction, fox news internet andy mccarthy, also written a couple of great columns in the last strassel. good to see you. andy, we start with you. they didn't care about obstruction, then they would have cared about hillary deleting subpoenaed email, bleach pit, hammers. they didn't care about russian interference, either, because they used the dirty dossier that she paid for. just like they didn't care about foreign interference in elections because they had a dnc operative, as "politico" pointed out in january 2,017th, a contractor from the nc was in negotiations with ukraine to get dirt on manafort so they could use it in the campaign, and they did, according to "politico." >> sean, i don't think they cared about anything other than the politics of it. if hillary had won, as was expected, you would never have heard a word about russian interference in our election. they certainly were not concerned about foreign interference in 2016, when there is a lot of reporting for the proposition that the obama administration pushed the ukrainians to reopen investigation involving paul

andy mccarthy, pete hegseth, dan bongino, the reaction to all of this news and more straight-ahead. ♪here's the amped-up, over-tuned, feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind. and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. that's the kind lincoln's about. ♪ pain happens. saturdays happen. aleve it. aleve is proven better on pain than tylenol. when pain happens, aleve it. all day strong. they're america's bpursuing life-changing cures. in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that. we went tonight we have learned don durham is expanding the probe into russia. meanwhile learning that mueller wasn't far pursuing the fbi director job in 2017. that is contrary to what he has testified to under oath. he was more reaction to that of close of headline, author of the brand-new book, exonerated and fox news contributor dan bongino but it also fox news contributor andy mccarthy and fox and friends cohost

the president wanting, to think andy mccarthy is dead wrong on all of this.sident wanting to get to the truth of the election interference of ukraine on behalf of hillary and the last election could we spent three years debating that a fair number two, joe biden on tape admitting he leveraged a billion taxpayer dollars, demanding the firing of a ukrainian prosecutor. why would a vice president do that, and no one is allowed to talk about that? >> yeah, that is quid pro quo right there, sean. i think it is perfectly acceptable for the president of united states too want to clariy exactly what happenedun there, because quite frankly, i think the american people deserve to what they're vice president was doing with awa billion dollars, and we hear on tape, like you said, he tells the prosecutor, this guy has to go, this other prosecutor has to go. it's such a double standard, though, whatever you see what they're trying to do to this president. to your point to come we have all seen the transcript. there is nothing there. sean, they called for the impeachment in

ultimately as andy has said, the american people will demand that they get taken away from you, andy mccarthy. >> another andy in all of this at the fbi. i was just -- >> we need to get to the bottom of this properly predicated, what was the evidentiary base of this. what was john brennan's role. the american people deserve that. without drawing any conclusions. >> i agree with both of you. the answers and information -- i think the intelligence agencies behaved really badly. it's hard to have an innocent explanation for what they did and the use of the steele dossier coming out through the fbi, the state department and so forth. so i think there's -- there could be criminal charges. we don't normally settle our political disputes with criminal charges. the most important thing to the american people is to find out what happened. that's why it's discouraging. it looks like the fbi and the cia are fighting this action. i'd like bill barr to go up there but after the information has been put out to declassify documents, all of these redacted areas. that's more important to me, who did what and

attorney for the southern district of new york, and he fox news contributor, andy mccarthy. dy, let's just jump right in all the protection whistleblowers. that is really where my questions live. you've got a second one coming into the picture, he or she says if they can substantiate some of the things from the first whistleblower, the attorney from both said they both need protection from firing retaliation. what does the law say? >> harris, first of all, i don't think the law applies to these whistleblowers. i've said that from the beginning. because the law that they are relying on deals with intelligence activities that are under the authority of the director of national intelligence. the president is not under the authority of the director of national intelligence, and his negotiations with foreign powers are not activities that statute directs itself to. that said, yes, whistleblowers should be protected. whether they need to be witnesses or not depends on what the allegation is. it is not a consistent position for the administration or the republicans to take, to say t

want to bring back andy mccarthy.y hello again to you we're about an hour and 15 minutes from the inspector general going behind closed doors and one of the major headlines and the president leaving for walter reed. it said democratic demands test trumps impeachment strategy. great reporting. they make the case that the white house learned a lesson about cooperating in the early days of the russia matter. they feel they were burned by that. but once they brought in giuliani and jay sekulow and started to stone wall and stop the operation they eventually were victorious. the article makes the case that that's going to be their strategy here. make congress challenge. if they concede they could lose. what do you think about that strategy? >> you know, i think a couple of things about it have to be sorted out, bill. i'm not satisfied that the president lost by cooperating. i think you have to bear in mind that we're dealing with two different kinds of inquiries. one was an investigation being conducted by a prosecutor whi

now fox news contributor andy mccarthy from the "wall street journal." also written a couple great columns in the last week. kim strassel, good to see you. andy, we start with you. that's a great point. but, really, they didn't care about obstruction because then they would have cared about hillary deleting subpoenaed emails and bleach bit and hammers. they didn't really care about russia interference either because they used the dirty dossier that she paid for. just like they didn't care about foreign interference in elections because they had a dnc operative as the politico pointed out january 11, 2017. yep, a contractor from the dnc was in negotiations with the ukraine to get dirt on manafort so they could use it in the campaign and they did effectively, according to politico. >> yeah, sean, i don't think they really cared about anything other than the politics of it, indeed. i think if hillary had won, as was expected, you would never have heard a word ever again about russian interference in our election. and they certainly were not concerned about

andy mccarthy. on ward you go.ll speak again soon. >> sandra: chicago's teachers union on the picket lines for a fifth straight day as their unions continue to work out a deal with city hall. you are looking live pictures in the city of chicago. will the mayor there find a way to strike a deal? a group of stus about being a scientist at 3m. i wanted them to know that innovation is not just about that one 'a-ha' moment. science is a process. it takes time, dedication. it's a journey. we're constantly asking ourselves, 'how can we do things better and better?' what we make has to work. we strive to protect you. at 3m, we're in pursuit of solutions that make people's lives better. at 3m, we're in puhere hold this.ons follow that spud. [ tires screech ] the big idaho potato truck is touring america telling folks about idaho potatoes. and i want it back. what is it with you and that truck? >> sandra: classes canceled again today for chicago public school children as thousands of picketing teachers plan a march on city h

andy mccarthy telling us very clearly, and catherine herridge reporting, this may mean the whistleblowert only not a whistleblower, but as we suspect already, has no standing irrespective of whether they change the form or not. >> you would not be able to get so-called evidence from this whistleblower admitted into a court of law. how are we supposed to use it to impeach the president of the united states? i would think that we need to do with john solomon suggested in the last segment. republicans need to start holding minority hearings and bring out the evidence. during the russia investigation the democrats learned a valuable lesson. the more they allow republicans to examine the evidence, the worse the case gets for them. they are on the super highway to impeachment with no stop signs. what we need to do is analyze it, unpack who this whistleblower is. and me up suspicion is we'll see this as the house of cards the russia hoax was. it's a knockoff of the ukrainian sequel. lou: i don't understand why the republican conference isn't outraged with what's going on. it's so clear this is

actually votes to codify that make it a reality as opposed to inquiry in name only, we have seen andy mccarthy has been driving about this judge napolitano as well, if pelosi is as serious as she claims to be about getting facts, and about our constitution, and our respect republic, she should call for the vote. rather than for some reason not having a vote, perhaps to protect certain of her members who don't want to take that vote because they are from ridish different -- reddish districts. kennedy: but you have to take bold moves -- >> she has the votes. to get this started she is protecting some people in her caucus, i believe, that does not align with tenor, tone and gravity of her rhetoric, i think that is a mismatch right 4,y does not have great every strongest hand to play right now but this something to draw attention to, he is firing at adam schiff, which is low-hanging fruit. kennedy: you are not supposed to call adam schiff names. >> is that the president's job. kennedy: that is what twitter is for. >> everyone knows. a impeachment is political. so we know that. no matter how you sp

andy mccarthy is a fox news contributor and former assistant u.s.andy, who won? who won day nine yesterday? the president at 2:30 or was it nancy pelosi at 11:00? 11:00 or was it the news that broke after that? >> yeah. brian, i guess if you had to make a call, it's the president because of the news that broke about adam schiff. i must tell you this cycle changes every two or three hours. so, it's hard to -- i think you have to watch trajectory. and what i would say here about the trajectory is, you know, steve was just talking about violating law. i don't think this is actually about law-breaking. i think this is a political dispute. and if it's a political dispute, that is if it's just about abuse of power, it's not about a violation of the federal penal code, then the politics o are what matters. right now it looks like the more you see that schiff is insinuated in it, the more that you see this complaint could not have been written by the whistleblower, it's very lawyered up as a document. steve: right. >> this looks like a big project that a lo

. >> mark: andy mccarthy is a former f just the author of a splendid book, "all the collusion: the plot to rig an election and destroy a presidency." andy, mr. durham like you are is a federal prosecutor and presumably he wouldn't be put on this case if there weren't at least the potential for a criminal prosecution at some point. >> that's right, mark. we are all hammers and every fact pattern is a nail. the whole point of assigning a prosecutor to something is to look at it in terms of whether a crime was committed. i actually be quite surprised if anything in their day-to-day function in as it's been going on the last several months is any different today that it was yesterday. in fact, i've had a chance the last couple of months to go around the country and talk about the book. i think what would've actually surprised people is if you had told them the day before yesterday that durham was only doing an administrative inquiry. i think of what he expected that this was being looked at like a prosecutor looks at a case. >> mark: one thing that's new about this is we've heard all these

someone unknown still has changed the requirement of the whistleblower statute for direct knowledge andy mccarthy telling us very clearly, that this may mean that the whistleblower is not only a whistleblower as most , i think, suspect already, but has no standing irrespective of whether they change the form or not. >> you would not be able to get the so-called evidence from this whistleblower admitted into a court of law. so how are we supposed to use it as the basis to impeach a president of the united states and really that's an attack on the voters. that is undidding the will of the voters in a pretty democratic way so i would think that we need to do precisely what john solemn emen suggested in the last segment. republicans need to start holding minority hearings and put together our own select committee and bring out the evidence because during the russia investigation the deput ies learned a very valuable lesson. the more they allow republicans to am kanye west in the evidence , the worse the case gets for them and so they are right now, they are on super highway to impeachment with no sto

andy mccarthy, thank you very much, great to see you. bring your details from a state official's testimony putting new spotlight on former vice president joe biden and his son hunter. what the added scrutiny could mean for biden's campaign next. ? prevagen is the number one pharmacist-recommended memory support brand. you can find it in the vitamin aisle in stores everywhere. prevagen. healthier brain. better life. >> i am dana perino. in the next hour, my exclusive interview with facebook ceo mark zuckerberg. his takes on 2020, concerns about bias on social media and whether free speech is in trouble. please don't miss it, very special edition of the daily briefing is coming up. >> julie: back to our top story now, former vice president joe biden facing scrutiny over revelations the state department official rich kent testified he raised concerns about hunter biden's work in ukraine way back in 2,018. we are just learning about it now. also told house lawmakers that abide in staffer blew him off. joining me now, syndicated radio host of

. >> sean: you see them trying to get out ahead of the story, we saw it with comey, as andy mccarthy says you can't have a counter intelligence operation without the president knowing. that president was obama. i want to know what he knew and when he knew it. congressman meadows, the i.g. report coming out. on the heels of that the durham report. how shocked will americans be at the findings? >> i think the findings will be breathtaking. i can tell you that many of the allegations that the president has made over the last three years and the genesis of this whole investigate the investigator process will actually provide fruit where the american people will start to say not only was the president's campaign spied upon but then there was a covert operation to try dorph all this up. you mentioned one thing earlier, sean. that was about ukraine and you talked about a politico article but we've got better evidence than that. we have congressional transcripts of nellie oh r which indicated that the only connection to some of her sources was lushenko from ukraine. if adam schiff wants to g

was involved in comparing the whistle-blower complaint, we don't have evidence that he was, but andy mccarthyread this complaint, it has lawyered up big time. >> harris: why would he not just say it from the beginning, it was definitely -- >> ed: now we know that they knew more than they first said. >> capri: this is yet another example of people are going to believe whatever part of the story that they feel tells the story that they want. we have no idea, it okay, president trump is out there saying that somehow shift the schiff broke the whistle-blower complaint himself, and there will be people that believe that, then you have a bipartisan group of people on the senate intelligence committee saying this is standard operating procedure, so you will have people latching onto that saying this is just common, but there is no way for us to know. >> harris: but what just said is not a test, he said that adam schiff said that he had not had contact with the whistle-blower, and maybe it was a staff member, but i think by proxy it still counts. >> ed: we did not have, so that suggests the staff too

andy mccarthy, thank you very much, always a pleasure. thanks.ormation that was gained from the raid that killed usama bin laden really helped a great deal and dealt a major blow to al qaeda. will the intel gained from the baghdadi raid do the same for isis? (contemplative synth music) - [narrator] forget about vacuuming for up to a month. shark iq robot deep-cleans and empties itself into a base you can empty once a month. and unlike standard robots that bounce around, it cleans row by row. if it's not a shark, it's just a robot. they're america's bpursuing life-changing cures. in a country that fosters innovation here, they find breakthroughs... like a way to fight cancer by arming a patient's own t-cells... because it's not just about the next breakthrough... it's all the ones after that. when a big stock to watch, google's parent company alphabet posted the numbers they missed for third-quarter earnings estimate that the company beat on revenues. they are having a conference arcall. it's 1.5%. we will be back in 60 seconds. e! (cookie) what a

andy mccarthy wrote about this a couple days ago and he said the constitution says the house has thet the speaker of the house, and indicating that because there has not been a vote by the house as a body this inquiry is illegitimated. what do you think? >> well i trust andy's research , i'm sure he dug through it and found pretty good precedent for that position. i think what it really speaks to overall is not really the semantics of who started the probe or who gets the vote or who doesn't vote but it looks like both sides are migrating towards litigation. they are each looking at very absolute terms about what the power is here and moving this towards the courts and the courts don't want to get into the middle of two branches of government such as the executive and legislative branches so i think we have a long slow game about to play out with the courts being involved against their will. >> jim it's carol roth. as i'm talking to average americans and real life on twitter one of the concerns that i keep hearing is that there isn't a level playing field that people think it's impor

andy mccarthy knows about these issues. we asked him about what rasheda tlaib said. she doesn't know the process, i suppose. it's not surprising that people think there is a bunch of subpoenas out there, pete. they have now finally issued their first subpoena. all these other things were just nasty letters. ultimately what they will do is go to court and they will try get a judicial finding that somebody is in contempt for not complying with the subpoena and they will hope that that ratchets up political pressure for compliance. but they can't arrest anyone. that's an executive function. pete: we are going to call the d.c. cops? i'm not kidding, everybody. i'm not kidding. we might have to call the d.c. coming and go arrest these folks in the white house. jedediah: where we're at. in the land of insane. griff: if the administration does not turn documents over, they are ultimately going to be charged with obstructing congress. d.c. police, i don't think, ever has been involved in any sort of matter like that. meanwhile, the president's daughter, ivanka trump, taking

we had andy mccarthy thinking on if you think of the worst quid pro quo it may not be impeachable.still, 63 million people who voted for mr. trump who think that the people should decide. you're the representatives of the people and the people are more important than the representatives. >> there's no question about it and i think it will be crystal clear and people will be able to judge based on the facts that are now being gleaned through the inquiry process. >> you're in the wonderful city of flint, michigan which i know and love. what are your constituents tell you about this whole process? >> well, they do want us to sort of get down to and make a decision. i think people are very concerned about it, but honestly, here in my hometown of flint right now most folks are sort of cheering the fa kt fact that uaw ratified the contract with general motors, that's what people talk about here, they don't talk so much about the issue of impeachment. >> i think you're right and sums it up for most of the nation. congressman kildee thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> with all of th

duty to not just the constitution but all voters in this country and it also raises an issue, andy mccarthyked about it yesterday, an official, this is from bill mcgurn's comment in the journal the other day, official impeachment proceeding comes with powers that allows congress to compel documents, a president might otherwise withhold from normal oversight, when you don't have a full vote, it now basically leaves it up to the committee to exercise these daunting powers and it's the speaker say so, we are in new territory. >> i want to reiterate, the bold-face lie that is we've seen over the last couple of years for 2 years adam schiff said that he had, quote, direct evidence, quote, ample evidence, quote, significant evidence that president trump colluded with the russians, he said that repeatedly in the last 3 years, the other day he came out and he said, the president did something wrong on the ukraine call, then he said he never spoke to whistleblower, i mean, they just keep stacking up the, you know, white lies or whatever you want to call them from adam schiff. dagen: adam schiff said

dagen: this goes back to what andy mccarthy was talking about. this is not a formal process. a stunt by congress to use this as a political weapon. we won't tolerate the bullying and intimidation of state department employees. congress is a co-equal branch of government and what they're doing violates the separation of powers, you according to the secretary of state. >> who do these people think are? the american people need to stand up to this and it needs to show up in the polling. what's going on here is ridiculous, it's anti-american. i can't believe what's going on in washington delve washington. maria: we are talking with congressman mark green. congressman, your reaction to what you're hearing here as well as you were in the middle of a thought on don people's he question of doesn't congress have better things to do. you've got a lot of things hanging in the balance. >> you look at the belt and road issue they're talking about right now, there are incredibly complex issues facing america and facing the world and china's belt and road agreement with italy is very concer

. >> bill: andy mccarthy, fox news contributor, how are you doing and a good morning to you? three matters i want to move through quickly. congress, you make the point if you want to be seen as legit then go ahead and take the vote. start there. >> well, look, i think what we have here is an impeachment inquiry, what is being pitched as one which has been decreed by the speaker of the house and some partisan leaders of the relevant committees who are doing the heavy lifting. it is not the work of the house of representatives as an institution. the house acts by voting. the constitution commits the power of impeachment to the house as an institution, not to the speaker. i think the president is on solid ground arguing that this is not the work of the house. it is not a legitimate inquiry. now, no one can make them take a vote. i think what we need to bear in mind here all the time is this is kind of a political, theatrical production with legal mood music. this is not really a legal proceeding. sit a political one ultimately. what the president is trying to do is pressure them

i also think about what andy mccarthy of national real view and one of our fox news contributors wrote weekend that republicans ought to be looking for some sort of off ramp. will there be something they can say if other new information comes on board and it makes it harder to argue the substance, is there an off ramp they can say we didn't like the phone call but it is not impeachable. let's try to move on. if they are only full bore on process and not prepared for the unknown it could be tricky. >> bill: doug collins republican from georgia ranking member of the house judiciary committee. if we get to that point he would be the one to oppose jerry nadler. his statement reads the resolution isn't about constitution, it is about control. not about fairness, it's about winning. not about finding the facts, it's democrats shredding procedure in order to stack the deck against the president they hate. end quote there. i have a minute left and i'll give it to you. >> this is what we have been hearing from steve scalise and doug collins. we've seen steve scalise comparing it to a soviet-sty

brian: andy mccarthy says even after they vote on the articles of impeachment, they still don't havelicans impeachment power. they don't have it. that's -- they are still making up the rules even after they have the vote, assuming she gets the vote. ainsley: she said we take this very seriously. looks so political. if you want to impeach him, take the vote. so we can have on record the people who want to impeach him. steve: meanwhile, joe biden who would like to be the next president of the united states, he really, you know, going in, i'm sure he was worried about are they going to ask me about ukraine? anderson cooper did ask a question about why is it not okay for the president's family to have members involved in overseas dealings but it was okay when you were vice president? and he never answered that, obviously. but he did say this about he and his son not doing anything wrong. >> my son did nothing wrong. i did nothing wrong. i carried out the policy of the united states government. in rooting out corruption in -- in ukraine. what i wanted to make a point about -- and my son's

andy mccarthy said there is no official impeachment inquiry. no subpoenas are going out.hment the impression but they don't do subpoenas or a full vote because it means people will have a conversation, there will be debates. the president wants clarity obviously. he is the most transparent president he has. he wants people on the record. it will create certainty and that will also help the economy and the frame of mind of americans going forward. stuart: i think it will. tammy, tanks very much for joining us. have a great weekend. >> you too. >> sure thing. check the big board. nice gain the market went up a little bit on our conversation with larry kudlow. right now we're up 188 points. 26,300 is the number. >>> remember this? a ceo went viral after promising to donate $30,000 to a vet if mr. trump retweeted him. well we're joined by that ceo, bill pulte, pulte capital ceo. bill, great to see you on the show. take me through this. you want to give away via twitter a million dollars. what is this about retweeting from president trump? i don't get it. tell me more. >> basi

andy mack cart think will be on a -- mccarthy is on, best analyst dealing with the whole impeachmentsette will be live from hong kong. claudia used to be the asian "wall street journal" editor. she knows hong kong. she was there in tianamen. now she is in hong kong as hong kong is going, going up in snoke. let's hope it down get that bad but she is the best analyst on the scene for that. so we've got a great show 5:00. melissa: i'm not moving. i will sit here in studio. watch the entire show. >> you can have a drink while you're watching. melissa: i love it. david asman, 5:00 p.m. eastern, fox business, we won't miss it. >> good stuff. connell: new fallout from the streaming wars. new moves to counter the rise of netflix. viewers are taking sides. we'll break out the details. plus your hard-earned cash at risk. secret fees behind your cable bill. how companies are leaving customers in the dark. what you need to know about that coming up next. ♪ at fidelity those zeros really add up. ♪ maybe i'll win ♪ saved by zero with sofi, get your credit cards right- by consolidating your credit

andy the eggs in an effort to punish schiff for reading a nonfactual account of the president's call from his ukrainian counterpart during his congressional hearing, schiff later called a parity. let's go to andrew mccarthyat to have you with us. during the commercial, we are talking through so many things, let's talk about the inspector general's report looking into those fisa applications, all the delays, it is in public yet in anticipation of its issues leading to the suspicion it will be deep-sixeds by the deep state. should he be worried? >> i don't think so. everybody should take a breath. it's probably a big report. my recollection, 500, 600 pages and this is more classified information. they have to go through it to figure out what could be public. let's say conservatively the report is 500 pages and documents out the door and make sure every single line is political redacted as they decided that you notice on national security stuff, you're wrong about those things, you can endanger people who cooperate with the government. it takes a few more days. shannon: we are waiting for john durham, the investigation and the investigators, a much broader and bigger time, people are worried about what this

assistant attorney andy mccarthy. thoughtful piece in national review and foxnews.com suggesting until there is a full house vote on this impeachment inquiry, it's just a bunch of nonsense. so does this vote that is scheduled this week meet your parameters? >> i think it does, jon. it is very significant and i would respectfully suggest to leader mccarthy that his legal analysis needs some reparation. the democrats have likeened what is going on now, the secret proceeding, to a grand jury. i don't think that analogy holds up because there are many ways this is different from a grand jury, not least the fact the grand jury is supposed to have secrecy. these guys leak everything they think is helpful to them. one way this is similar to a grand jury is that once you have a full and fair trial in court where the defendant is given all of the due process protections that apply at a trial, it is highly, highly unusual for a court to throw out a case or reverse a case on account of irregularities that went on in the grand ju

newt gingrich, andy mccarthy, donna brazile and more. join me and bill live at the top of the hour.loween tournament to dress up in thin blue line uniforms to honor our police officers. brian: the team wanted to show respect for their head coach and two parent who work in law enforcement. steve: the jackson, new jersey, wolf pack soccer team who won the tournament joins us live with head coach and new jersey stately staff sergeant, rod blackburn and assistant coach greg cook. >> good morning, guys. steve: tell us about the idea behind the costume? >> greg and i kind of stick to the coaching side of things. we have a team manager, grace's mom. we kind of let her roll with it. she talked to the girls. every year they get to decide what their costumes are. last year they were marines. this year they decided to be s.w.a.t. team members. ainsley: why was it important to dress up in a police costume? >> i think it was important because we have to honor the people who risk their lives every day at work for us. brian: rob, you lost a friend, right? >> yes. brian: is that part of this? >> ul