. >> activists paid ginni thomas thousands of dollars... >> narrator: their histories... >> ginni thomasw up with republican activism. narrator: their influence... >> the idea that i won't be told what to think, just because of the color of my skin animated clarence thomas. >> ov>>narrator: now,rsus "clarence and ginni thomas: politics, power and the supreme court." >> some people might call it payback. others might call it the fulfillment of his dreams. >> frontline is made possible by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. and by the corporation for public broadcasting. additional support is provided by the abrams foundation, committed to excellence in journalism... park foundation, dedicated tohf critical issues... the john d. and catherine t macarthur foundation committed to building a more just, verdant and peaceful world. and by the frontline journalism fund, with major support from jon and jo ann hagler. and additional support from koo and patricia yuen, committed to bridging cultural differences in our communities. support for this program was provide

it is not about ginni. it is about the very wealthy, very conservative, white people doing something that has never really been done with the supreme court justice, a very powerful, supreme court justice. i happen to know in trying to find out how many other trips were being taken by members of the supreme court. this is by any standards that anybody talks about, this is the largest case of the biggest example, the most fragrant example of the supreme court accepting gifts of the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars, including $500,000 given by harlan crow to ginni's political action group she was running. she was paid $120,000 a year out of that. these are all things that are factual and accurate. i think, very different than anything michelle obama ever did or could conceive of. host: let's take a look at the portion of the film from the earliest days of clarence and ginni thomas. here is a look. [video clip] >> she sees that outside world attacking her as something that needs to be beaten down,

was that money secretly going to ginni thomas?oing and experience or expertise did ginni thomas have that would make or someone that you would want handling your polling, especially if you were already polling expert? i'm going to talk to one of the reporters who broke the story and one of the people pushing to fix our broken supreme court coming up next. ♪♪ voltaren. the joy of movement. ♪♪ your best defense against erosion and cavities is strong enamel- nothing beats it. new pronamel active shield actively shields the enamel to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works. >> leonard leo has single-handedly changed the face of the judiciary. he has many assets, that is not even all he does. it does not really tell all that he does, but i know enough to know the man is a force of nature. >> that force of nature ginni thomas reference there was federal society leader leonard leo. yesterday, we learned that leo at quite a hand and shaping the supreme court and much

was that money secretly going to ginni thomas? or expertise did ginni thomas have that would make or someone that you would want handling your polling, especially if you were already polling expert? i'm going to talk to one of the reporters who broke the story and one of the people pushing to fix our broken supreme court coming up next. i don't live here, so i'm taking this and whatever's in the back. it's already sold in the us. but i'm not taking any chances. the uk's #1 skincare has crossed the pond. (wheezing) asthma isn't pretty. it's the moment when you realize that a good day... is about to become a bad one. but then, i remembered that the world is so much bigger than that, with trelegy. because one dose a day helps keep my asthma symptoms under control. and with 3 medicines in 1 inhaler, trelegy helps improve lung function so i can breathe easier for a full 24 hours. trelegy won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. trelegy contains a medicine that increases risk of hospitalizations and death from asthm

was that money secretly going to ginni thomas? was going and experience or expertise did ginni thomas have that would make or someone that you would want handling your polling, especially if you were already polling expert? i'm going to talk to one of the reporters who broke the story and one of the people pushing to fix our broken supreme court coming up next. coming up next on. astepro is the first and only 24-hour steroid-free spray. while flonase takes hours, astepro starts working in 30 minutes. so you can [ spray, spray ] astepro and go. (music throughout) get the royal treatment. join the millions playing royal match today. download now. weeds... they have you surrounded. you're just gonna stand there? or are ya gonna take your lawn back. we're gonna take it back. we're gonna take it back. with scotts turf builder triple action! it gets three jobs done at once - kills weeds. prevents crabgrass. and keeps your lawn growing strong. glorious! -agggghhhhhh! -aaagghhhh. no no no. get a bag of scotts triple action today, it's gua

it is not about ginni.ery wealthy, very conservative, white people doing something that has never really been done with the supreme court justice, a very powerful, supreme court justice. i happen to know in trying to find out how many other trips were being taken by members of the supreme court. this is by any standards that anybody talks about, this is the largest case of the biggest example, the most fragrant example of the supreme court accepting gifts of the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars, including $500,000 given by harlan crow to ginni's political action group she was running. she was paid $120,000 a year out of that. these are all things that are factual and accurate. i think, very different than anything michelle obama ever did or could conceive of. host: let's take a look at the portion of the film from the earliest days of clarence and ginni thomas. here is a look. [video clip] >> she sees that outside world attacking her as something that needs to be beaten down, something that nee

it is not about ginni.ery wealthy, very conservative, white people doing something that has never really been done with the supreme court justice, a very powerful, supreme court justice. i happen to know in trying to find out how many other trips were being taken by members of the supreme court. this is by any standards that anybody talks about, this is the largest case of the biggest example, the most fragrant example of the supreme court accepting gifts of the magnitude of hundreds of thousands of dollars, including $500,000 given by harlan crow to ginni's political action group she was running. she was paid $120,000 a year out of that. these are all things that are factual and accurate. i think, very different than anything michelle obama ever did or could conceive of. host: let's take a look at the portion of the film from the earliest days of clarence and ginni thomas. here is a look. [video clip] >> she sees that outside world attacking her as something that needs to be beaten down, something that nee

leo told conway he wanted her to give ginni thomas another 25, 000, the documents show. conway's firm, the polling, company sent a nonprofit associate with leo, that 25,000 dollar bill that day, currently owes instructions, conway's firm list of the purpose as, supplementary constitution polling in opinion consulting. now in total, the post reports conway's firm paid thomas's firm $80,000 between june 2011 into 2012. it's a big chunk of change. and expected to pay 20,000 more before the end of 2012. we're talking 100 grand in the calendar year. the documents reviewed by the post do not indicate the precise nature of any work thomas did. okay, so it sounds like leonard leo and kellyanne conway directed 100 grand to a group run by ginni thomas without a clear expectation of work in exchange for those funds, at least as part as the post reporting can tell. in the effort to be fair here, there's nothing inherently wrong with one conservative organization sending money to another conservative organization or billing them for services, and that's the defense kellyanne conway o

and then there is thomas' wife ginni.on post" is reporting that ginni thomas received tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work in 2012 as directed by federalist society leader leonard leo. "the post" says leo instructed the pollster to use that money to pay ginni thomas. this was the same year leo's non-profit filed an amicus brief to the supreme court in a landmark voting rights case. in all kellyanne conway's polling company paid ginni thomas and her consulting firm $80,000 between june 2011 and june 2012 with another $20,000 to come before the end of the 2012. in a statement to "the post" he said in part it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues within the conservative movement, and part of that work has involved gauging public attitudes and sentiments. we're going to have a lot more on the implications of all of this coming up next. s of all of this coming up next. there is a better way to manage diabetes. the dexcom g7 continuous glucose monitoring system eliminates painful fin

and then, there was thomas's wife ginni.ting that ginni thomas receive tens of thousands of dollars for consulting work in 2012, as directed by federalist society leader leonard leo. the post reports that leo instructed kellyanne conway, who was, at the time, a republican poster, to bill a nonprofit organization that leo advised, and then use that money to pay ginni thomas. this was the same year that leo's nonprofit filed an amicus brief to the supreme court in a landmark voting rights case. in all, kellyanne conway's polling company paid ginni thomas and her consulting firm $80,000 between june 2011 in june 2012, with another $20,000 to come before the end of 2012. in a statement to the post, leonard leo said, in part, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues within the conservative movement, and part of that work has involved gauging public attitudes and sentiment. the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the courts business or with other legal issues. we are go

that the paperwork should have no mention of ginni, of course.se. leo told "the washington post" it is of no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues within the conservative movement and part of that work has involved gauging public sentiment. the work she did here did not involve anything with the court's business or other legal issues and knowing how disrespectful, malicious, gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. i should note nbc news has not seen the documents cited by "the washington post," but yesterday, texas senator john cornyn, a former judge, dug up this old defense when he was asked about the story. >> i know harlan crow and i know clarence thomas and they're both honorable men. this is part of a 32-year smear campaign that started with his confirmation hearing. i played the video for people who don't remember it, where he referred to as a high-tech lynching. >> yeah, okay. crow told the dallas morning news that propublica, that first published the piece o

leo told that group not to record her name writing no mention of ginny, of course. the same year the nonprofit filed an amicus. clarence thomas already under scrutiny for taking lavish vacations. democrats and some republicans are calling for a cleanup at the court. >> the drip, drip, drip of the these destructive disclosures will destroy the united states supreme court. >> in a statement to "the washington post," leonard leo said that ginny's work was invaluable and her work did not involve anything connected with the court's businesses. the thomass when asked for comment by the post did not respond. david? >> terry moran who has covered the court for years. thank you. we turn to the economy. a better than expected jobs report today. 253,000 jobs added in april. unemployment now falling to 3.4% in this country. match ago 54-year low. looming over all of this, the threat of default. president biden denouncing house republicans who are refusing to raise the debt limit inless he agrees with their spending cuts. >> the last thing this country needs is a manufactured cr

the post says he told conway to then give ginni thomas another $25,000.show he emphasized the paperwork should have, quote, no mention of ginni, of course. it's unclear exactly what ginni thomas did for conway's polling firm or the judicial education project. thomas has not commented for that report. cnn's senior supreme court analyst has been looking into this, and joan, it comes in the middle of all these questions about ethics inside the supreme court. >> reporter: you know, that's right, john. this is just one more piece of awareness we're all getting about the very secretive world of the supreme court and money surrounding the supreme court. individuals giving money to justices and questions being raised about why and does that actually influence the justices in cases. let's start with what leonard leo has said in response to "the washington post" story. the work ginni did here did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect

the washington post now reporting ginni thomas received tens of thousands of dollars in fees throughudicial activist who specifically asked that her name be left off the billing paperwork. terry moran reporting tonight. just in, a massive fire erupting in houston. the images coming in tonight. the economy and jobs this evening, the new jobs report, a much better numbers than expected. and the coronation of king charles and queen camilla. hours away now and what they are going to do to honor the late queen elizabeth. james longman standing outside buckingham palace tonight. ♪ ♪ >> announcer: from abc news world headquarters in new york, this is "abc world news tonight with david muir." >> david: it is great to have you with us as we near the end of another week. we begin with the deposition of former president trump. a vigil for the first time being made for tonight the sexual assault and defamation case. they saw this deposition, the former president seen on video responding to the documents and questions posed by carroll's lawyer. after repeatedly saying e. jean carroll is not his t

his directive to her, keep ginni thomas's name off the books. same year that nonprofit filed an amicus brief in a supreme court case which ultimately stripped away parts of the voting rights act, a case clarence thomas did not recuse himself from. nbc news has not confirmed "the washington post's" reporting on leo's payments or yesterday's propublica's reporting on harlan crow's payments. leo and crow have defended the family, and denied unethical behavior. joining me now is "washington post" reporter emma brown, part of the team that uncovered this latest reporting. emma, walk us through who leonard leo and what sort of payments he allegedly was giving to ginni thomas, and why the timing is of interest. >> leonard leo is not exactly a household name but he's a really important figure in what has been a generation-long effort by conservative activists to shift the federal judiciary to the right, and he oversees an interlocking network of nonprofits that just a couple of years ago got a major infusion of $1.6 billion in cash. so he is an influent

the family, clarence thomas's ethics scandals are growing by the minute, and now involve his wife, ginni thomas. surprise, i'm ayman mohyeldin, let's get started. ♪ ♪ ♪ we start tonight with that breaking news, on the horrific mall shooting in allen, texas. according to two senior law enforcement officials, the suspected gunman, the suspected gunman, excuse me, interacted with neo-nazis and white supremacist content online. one of the officials said the suspect posted this kind of content himself. the other official said he consume such rhetoric online, and said that authorities found him with a patch with a right-wing acronym on his chest. we should note the official said it is too early an investigation to ascribe a motive, but here's what we do know. eight people, including a five year child, died in that shooting. of course, as we've just said, the republican refrain after massacres like this one is always thoughts and prayers. no action, zero change. that is undoubtedly the standard republican party line. but another line is now coinciding with it. and we heard last night on fox, as

thomas, quote, another $25,000 with, quote, no mention of ginni, of course.al education project for $25,000 and that money was for ginni thomas. documents reviewed by "the post" show that conway's company paid thomas's firm $80,000 between june 2011 and june 2012. it's still not fully clear what exactly ginni thomas did for conway's polling company or for the judicial education project. the nonprofit did file a brief in shelby versus holder where the court invalidated key parts of the voting rights act of 1965. justice thomas wrote an opinion in that case that was consistent with judicial education project's position. here's how leonard leo is responding to this reporting. quote, the work ginni did here did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or with other legal issues, knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and go gossipy people can be i've always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. the post did not receive responses from justice thomas, from ginni thomas his wife or k kellyanne conway. >>> in one of the highe

we don't know the precise nature of the work that ginni was paid for.to work for the polling company in subsequent years. so there are a lot of unanswered questions. you by think what these documents do show is a revealing moment, we often don't have much information about the income, the sources of income for the justices' family members on disclosure forms. they don't have to list the clients of their consulting firms for example in this case. so, this is significant because it shows, number one, that there was, you know, that it shows the source of some of this money and number two, i think the other significant detail here is the original source of the money, the judicial education project, and the subsequent years and even that same year did have interest before the courts. the supreme court specifically. and filing amicus briefs on hot-button issues. >> let me read that reporting. in december 2012, the project submitted an amicus brief challenging a landmark civil rights law aimed at protecting minority voters. the court struck down the voting rig

look, the ginni thomas situation is unlike anything else that is happening.ively trying to overthrow the government when she was lobbying with mark meadow and with president trump was going around the white house between the 2020 election and the insurrection on january 6th, and these actions, you know, ten years ago, it's one thing if it's reported, right, and there's a lot of dark money when it comes to activism in the judicial space. but the defense that leonard leo put forth is preposterous, the idea that she was paid for things that had nothing to do with the court. what was the head of an activist group is advocating around legal issues around the court, what was he paying ginni thomas for if it wasn't business related to what's happening on the court. i think these are very specific allegations related to ginni thomas that are a category difference from some of the other stuff that might not smell great related to harlan crow but might not be a direct issue to the legitimacy of the court. >> jake, while you have some moderate republicans calling into q

there should be no mention of ginni thomas in any paperwork.when someone tells you not to put something in writing and then puts it in writing. leo told "the post," quote, it is no secret that ginni thomas has a long history of working on issues in the conservative movement. when asked why he wanted to keep ginni thomas' name off the paperwork, leonard leo told "the post," quote, knowing how disrespectful, malicious, and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni, unquote. apparently the belief that transparency and accountability for the highest court in the land are just gauche and rude. let's bring in joan biskupic and walter schwab. joan, people out there might not realize how huge a role leonard leo has played in so much of what the court has done, including overturning roe v. wade. walk us through the kind of influence he has. >> you cannot overstate the influence of leonard leo on the supreme court. in fact, i've described him as someone who, once you get beyond the white house or congre

conservative activist who made sure that ginni's name was not on any of the billing statements. that's not all, we're going to bring you even more reporting on more gifts and perks that clarence thomas took from that billionaire republican donor. wait until you hear what our panelists have to say about all of this. >>> plus, new york city mayor eric adams talking about crime and drugs and the danger to children in his own city. >> 9 and 10-year-olds, our babies are saying i'm feeling depressed. they start their day going to the corner bodega buying cannabis and fentanyl and sit in the classroom and try to learn. they look at tiktok that's teaching them how to steal cars. young boy was burned 85% of his body because he did a tiktok challenge. >> the mayor says more prayer is the answer. we'll discuss that. >>> and why is america losing it? why are we behaving so badly to our fellow humans on airplanes at ball games, when did we lose our common decency? we're going to bring you the story of a high school baseball empire, a disabled vet getting punched out by a parent. we have more

conway was to pay ginny thomas but leave her name off the paper work. of revelations the gop mega donor and thomas friend harlan crow has been paying for luxury trips, real estate transactions. as we learned yesterday, he paid the tuition for thomas' grand nephew. joan, how big a deal do you think this "washington post" report about payments to ginny thomas is, particularly in the wake of the reports of her husband's financial history with harlan crow? did you have any idea both of them were receiving money like this from activists and donors? >> good evening, anderson. my first reaction was this is yet one more piece that shows how intertwined wealthy money interests are with these supreme court justices, and it's a time when members of congress, wash dog broups in the media, have been questioning why the justices don't have a formal code of@ins. this situation involving ginnie already gets attention, but you're right to pair it with what we learned earlier from to publica reports about justice thomas getting, you know, lavish travel and lodging, vacat

it's unclear exactly what ginni thomas did for conway's polling firm or the education project. into this. what's the bigger issue here? >> good morning, kate. yes, this is all part of what we're learning of -- what we've known has been a very secretive world of money and influence around the supreme court and why so many people are pushing the justices to adopt a formal code of ethics, but i want to say that all these instances that have come out recently in news reports are not all the same and not of the same weight. let's start by saying what leonard leo told the "washington post" in response to that report. the work ginni did here did not involve anything connected with either the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossipy people can be i have always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginny. so let me get to this, kate, about what's the same here and why these kinds of reports keep raising concerns and what's different. we saw just recently reports from propublica about republican billionaire harlan crow giving g

he is seeking to keep ginni thomas' name off the billing paperwork, but we don't know why he is doing this. >> ginni thomas is, of course, a conservative activist but also a consultant at a consulting firm, isn't she? >> yes, she has a long career in politics. in 2009, she established a nonprofit to try to harness the energy of the gathering t party movement. she ended up stepping away from that amid conflict of interest questions because there was a large, anonymous donation to the group and she founded a for-profit consulting firm, liberty consulting, and that is the firm that has paid her for many years, according to clarence thomas' disclosure forms, but that's all we really know. he does not need to disclose how much money she makes through her consulting firm, nor who her clients are. >> you talk to ethics experts about this. what did they have to say? >> the father first amicus brief in 2012, the same year as these payments, and in that brief, the landmark voting rights case in which the court struck down a provision that was meant to protect minority voters. thomas agreed with

he is seeking to keep ginni thomas' name off the paperwork.y he is doing this. >> ginni thomas is a conservative activist and also a consultant. >> she has a long career in politics. in 2009, she established a nonprofit to try to harness the power of the tea party movement. she stepped away amid conflict of interest questions. she founded a for-ofit consulting firm and that is the firm that has paid her for many years, according to clarence thomas' disclosure forms but that is all we really know. he does not need to disclose how much money she makes through her consulting firm or who her clients are. >> you spoke to ethics experts. what did they have to say? >> the source of the money paid to ginni thomas according to the arrangement as laid out by leonard leo, filed its first brief before the supreme court in 2012. that is the same year as these payments. in that brief, it was in shelby v. holder, the landmark voting rights case in which the court struck down a provision that was meant to protect minority voters, thomas agreed with the outcom

especially the part where he meets up with ginni.the things you didn't know about her, which is also tremendously interesting and endlessly fascinating to me. and we're not done yet. here comes the news again over and over again. >> right. >> that's how we started, and that's where we ended up. >> so can you tell us what you found out about the backgrounds of these two individuals or their relationship, and then when the pro publica news broke, i take it you were probably already working on this, how did those revelations fit into everything you were finding? >> it's very interesting. what you discover about thomas in his life is that a set of resentments and grievances that grow out of rejection, rejection all across the board. when he was a little kid in georgia living in desperate circumstances. the other black kids made fun of him. his mother handed him over to his very stern and abusive grandfather. he goes off to the seminary to try to become the first black priest in savannah, georgia. the whole community is -- black community

now, leo has come out and said that ginny's work was never involved in the court's business and thatleave her name out of it, don't say ginny's name, because washington's very gossipy and he respected the couple. we haven't yet heard from the thomases, and i think there are some questions and more clarity that is needed. but again, it's about the context, right? like mollie mentioned, it makes it more complex because these stories are coming out at the same time that some feel there's a concerted effort to delegitimize the court. howard: briefly, mollie, there was in this document this note from leonard leo don't mention ginny, that does make it sound like they're try can -- trying to hide something. >> ruth bader ginsburg signing her opinion and donating it for a pro-abortion fundraiser which is -- you're not supposed to be involved in that kind of thing. probably he understands that the media willing to go after the thomases in particular and have been for decades and so one's even alleging there was something wrong here, there was something that needed to be disclosed. it's part o

no mention of ginni, of course.sically had a very well-known trump aid, kelly anne conway to get this done. this is according to washington post reporting. it was an arrangement where one of the groups that leo works with, his entity, would then put money towards conway's firm and this was earmarked as consulting. then conway would take that money and give it to ginni thomas's firm and this is was over $80,000. it is not known what money she did. i should say what work she did for that money. and let be clear. while it might be technically legal, because they could spend money on things, it clearly was a scheme to make this hidden and secret from the public and it is the kind of mechanism that is also associated with money laundering. because you're hiding the onlyin of the funds. then as you see on the bottom of the chart, on the same year, leonard leo's same group filed a brief in a voting case with the supreme court that reaches justice thomas. conservatives on the court then ruled the way that they were hoping a

at this deal between leonard leo in the federalist society, where he tells kellyanne conway to pay ginnito report -- that is a direct, possibly, violation of the law, and certainly another example of corruption. and, look, i don't think anything is going to happen because there is no way the republicans are going to push clarence thomas out while joe biden gets to nominate the next supreme court justice. and, you know there's no way to get 66, or whatever it would be, 67 votes in the senate to impeach clarence thomas without republicans. so, it is obviously corruption, the republicans have shown that they don't care about, that they didn't convict donald trump after he tridents rexton. so i don't see them convicting clarence thomas over this. as for feinstein, she needs to be back. the one thing that she had been doing well was getting judges to match a really fast pace of nominating and confirming judges under the trump administration. and, that is not happening right now. no matter what feinstein said is happening in her statements. >> she said she is planning to come back in this comi

none of it mentioning that is to ginni thomas.ents were for her as well, though they didn't -- this does not seem great. what do you think about that? >> well, i use the word deceit, i use the word cover-up, i would use the word -- it's clear that leonard leo knows that if they saw the light of day, it would cause controversy. and the bottom line here is that the court is getting itself into a lot of trouble and that's bad for our democracy. you know, whatever the relationship is with thomas, and his benefactor, it's a pretty shocking thing to be getting vacations on yachts in greece, in new zealand, to be flying on private jets, and have that not be known. and obviously, the whole federal society relationship is something that's extraordinarily important. it's been very discouraging. i'm not on the judiciary committee now, as you know, but i've watched those judiciary committing hearings before and when these nominees are put forward, the judiciary committee is an afterthought. the federal society is the interview that really mat

thomas's pocket, including a note that said " no mention of ginni, of course."y disputes it is wrong. now what we are doing is haggling about the price. amy: i want to go to senate judiciary chair dick durbin on sunday. >> you are not willing to subpoena the chief justice john roberts. you have indicated it is unlikely that you can pass legislation that will impose an ethics code on the court. and you have said you don't think the justice department should investigate justice thomas' actions. in essence, aren't you throwing up your hands and sing the supreme court is not accountable to anybody but themselves? there is nothing you can do even though you are the chairman of the senate judiciary committee? >> not at all, jake. the bottom line is everything is on the table. day after day, week after week, more disclosures about justice thomas. we cannot ignore them. the first thing we will do is gather the evidence, the information we need to draw conclusions. i'm not ruling out anything. amy: dahlia lithwick, if you can respond. dahlia: it is such a weird moment, h

ginni thomas, as in the wife of supreme court justice clarence thomas.he paperwork should have no mention of ginni thomas, of course. now, the nonprofit whose money mr. leo directed towards ginni thomas back in 2012 -- that group is still around. and it is still affiliated with mr. leonard leo. it has re-branded. and it is now known as the 85 fund, or the honest elections project, its business alias. and it is a big part of the newly emboldened right-wing movement to tighten voting laws and to make it harder to vote in the first place. now, i wouldn't say that leonard leo was necessarily the third most powerful person in the world. but the degree of power he does have over our politics does not feel like a laughing matter. when we come back, a clamor for justice after a homeless man is killed on a new york subway. but what does justice even look like in this case? that is coming up next. how to grow delicious organic veggies. step one: use miracle-gro performance organics container mix. it's full of nutrient-charged raw materials so it's guaranteed to pr

he did not have business in front of the court we talk about the story of kellyanne conway paying ginnir the court why is there true ethical dilemma here for those that just don't get it? >> it is a great question we've been talking to other federal charges, current and retired, they take the sort of norms of judicial -- so seriously that they want even let a lawyer by the lunch hundreds of thousands of dollars is way beyond what others have spoken to what except. i think the larger issue is that harlan is not just a random friend of -- involved in campaigns and think tanks the due legal advocacy. and anytime you have a political megadonor like that is essentially funding the life of an official and their family, like calling crowl's funding justice thomas, that is something we are going to write about -- covering these issues for a long time, you just see the sort of thing. >> justin elliott to the weight's correspondents dinner talked about the free an independent press. that is exactly what you guys are doing it propublica. come back when you have a lot of blockbuster piece i think t

he emphasized that the paperwork should have no mention of ginni, of course, conway's firm, the polling,000 -- no mention of -- judicial education project -- perlytown shock shuns, it listed the purpose as supplement for constitution polling an opinion consulting, the documents show. kellyanne conway then collected that $25,000 from leonard leo's operation, and sent it to clarence thomas's wife. the washington post obtained documents showing that kellyanne conway sent a total of $80,000 to virginia thomas. the sources of that money were never disclosed, clarence thomas's financial disclosure forms, new york university law professor stephen gilbert told the washington post, the idea that leonard leo, who has a passionate ideological interest in how the court rules and who has worked hard for years to advance that interest, could pick up the phone and generate substantial compensation to virginia thomas, which also benefits clarence thomas, that idea is bad for the country, the court and the rule of law. it's not the way the supreme court should do it's business or allow its business to b

harlan crow reportedly gives $500,000 to a political nonprofit started by ginni thomas. but politico links it to crow in 2011. 2012 -- conservative activist leonard leo instructs kellyanne conway to billet nonprofit group he advises and give ginni thomas another $25,000. he says the paperwork should include no mention of ginni thomas, of course. 2014 -- in thomas sells three pieces of property he co-owners to crow, including his mother's house. despite the law outlining that such real estate sales must be disclosed, thomas does not to do so. my panel is back with me. carol, that was just kind of the timeline we put together. let's start with his letter from harlan crow's attorneys to the senate finance committee this week, where he basically does not want to cooperate. how solid do you think their legal rationale for ignoring the panel's inquiries? this is a senate congressional committee. >> i think ultimately they would win on this front. the weird thing is that, ultimately, that issue could end up going up in front of the supreme court. and that is what is so uncomfor

the poster is reporting that leonard leo and ginni thomas, it repeats a pretty damning picture.be. what do you think it is? what do you make of it? >> certainly, it has the appearance of impropriety. it could be pay for play. so the only knee that he funneled to mrs. thomas, he funneled it through a nonprofit organization that ended up having matters before the court, they filed an amicus brief in section five shelby county the hold her case, that actually -- the heart of the voting rights act where justice thomas has been -- majority in that case, striking down the heart of the voting rights act. so at the very least, there is the appearance of impropriety. there is paul sibley a full-out conflict of interest and possibly a street bribe. but there seems to be no bottom to the ethical conflict that the court has and that justice thomas is executing. that is why we absolutely need ethical standards to apply to this court. >> basil, i want to give your thoughts on -- harlan crow paying for the tuition of a child in clarence thomas's care. harlan crow basically dismissing the repor

he wanted kellyanne conway to give ginni thomas money with no megs of ginni. that money was for ginni thomas. it's unclear what she did, but that non-profit did file a brief in 2012 for the court invalidated key parts of the landmark voting rights act of 1965. justice thomas wrote an opinion that was consist can ent with the non-profit's position. so, joan, what do you make of all of this? >> good morning. you know, this is yet one more piece that we're finding out of the very secretive world of money and influence with the supreme court justices. but i want to say this one seems very different from what we heard in recent days and weeks involving harlan crow. let's say what leonard leo, how he responded to "the washington post." he said the work guinea did did not involve anything connected with the court's business or other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful malicious and gossipy people can be, i have always tried to protect the privacy of begin any thomas and justice thomas. i know that erica that justice thomas and leonard leo go all the way back to l

this payment made for consulting work done by ginni thomas.e was this idea of no mention of ginni in the payment. from kellyanne conway. did justice thomas have illegal and or at the go obligation to report this? money we >> of course he, did yasmin. the entire landscape here is predicated on the notion that judges, including supreme court justices, should avoid any appearance of impropriety. and that is why you bend over backwards. i did the same thing as a u.s. attorney, you go above and beyond what you need to disclose so people can have confidence in your integrity. but here we are right in the heartland of the sort of information that needs to be disclosed about a spouse's income and the fact that it wasn't is very troubling. >> here's what leonard leo is saying about, that the work she did here did not involve anything connected with either the courts business or with other legal issues. knowing how disrespectful, malicious and gossip people people can be, i've always tried to protect the privacy of justice thomas and ginni. >> what do y

this was your memories of virginia, ginny ramadi was of the trust. i don't think the as she was writing great book. no but what attracted me was we are a fabulous we we are so deep as well as broad we do we mix the creative with the hard sciences and our our faculty are so so great and. the university's trajectory over the past 1015 years has been so that any person with a right mind when they were called by a trustee and you were on the committee, the, you know, you were called both trustee and you were asked would you like to be interviewed for the presidency of this great university? they'd be crazy to say yes. it's funny you say because i, i my memory for, all of you, some of you graduating or been here a while, i always say, why did i go here and i say, i felt what northwestern did was teach me how to think. and i said it was that right brain left brain. it was it was exactly as you described it which i really think is the future of how you're going to have to teach. so i say if it did nothing else, i learned how to solve problems. right. and ho