we haven't gotten any clarification on the jury question. the jury question. has invited them to take a dinner break until 8:15. there is no response from the jury yet. we're waiting for a response from the jury. here is where we are at this hour. in the evening here as you see, 4:23 pacific time here on cnn. the jury came out a while ago and said they had a question regarding manslaughter. the judge spoke with everyone involved, convened the court, and everyone came to an agreement saying that they could not talk in general regarding manslaughter and they sent a note back to the jury saying if the jury had specific questions regarding manslaughter then they needed to send that to the court and the court would address that. the judge asked for 15 minutes to try to figure out what the jury's response would be and apparently she has not heard from them because she has not gotten back. we have not heard. she said she would convene in 15 minutes. we haven't heard from her regarding that. but she did invite the jury and the attorneys i'm being told to take a dinner

most juries due. there's very rarely direct evidence. >> let me jump in, i want to go to judge ail next a second. i want to clarify with you because ien watt to get his take on this. what is it you said if in fact george zimmerman followed trayvon martin, if in fact he started the fight, and then he may have been getting beaten up by trayvon martin. >> if george zimmerman started the fight. i don't mean following him, i don't mean talking to him, i mean making some overt act that was physical in nature, in which martin felt the need to defend himself, then martin's defending himself, and george zimmerman does not get to pull out his gun and shoot him. that is not what the law holds. the instructions do not indicate that. that could very well be manslaughter and it's not self-defense. if that's what the jury finds. >> let's bring in judge alex ferrare, he's been listening to jennif jennifer. where do you stand in terms of in the 11th hour literally, the jurors coming up with only the second question so

instruction to the jury.it is n notlelnot le legally proper to request it. >> ask the state to produce the statute that makes it illegal to follow somebody. >> you're asking him to prove a negative, basically. >> no -- >> my question is show me a florida statute that says this is the law in the state of florida. you're asking me to put in here is not unlawful activity, under florida law. you can argue that to the jury in the closing argument. >> judge, detective serino said so, in his testimony. any law enforcement officer -- >> as far as i know, i don't think that he drafted any of the legislation. >> mr. mantei didn't say it was illegal to follow someone. he can't cite you. criminal statutes are pretty precise, designed to put people on notice what's legal and isn't. if it's illegal to follow somebody, tell the police where they're going there better be a law against it, otherwise you can't say it's illegal to do that. >> you're repeating your argument. i've heard the argument from both sides, i am not givi

six women on this jury. they may be thinking what you're thinking and there is a reason there are six women, most of them mothers on this particular jury. >> i think the reason is prosecutors wanted women on the jury. >> right. we don't want to profile women but that is what you do in jury selection. you pick people for certain reasons. >> you do. i think, you know, of course the law presumes everybody is equal and everybody is treated the same. in reality, different people view different situations through life experiences and women in particular may view violence and the threat of violence in a way that is different than men. i think prosecutors in this case felt women would be especially sensitive to a 17-year-old kid being pursued by a stranger and killed and be sympathetic to that position. more maybe than a man would be and that certainly factored into their decision putting so many women on the jury. it is very unusual by the way. i've been trying cases for a lot of years, tried a lot of murder cases.

and i've seen questions abandoned by juries sometimes in jury deliberations. so you're dealing with six complicated human beings. a lot of very, very smart jurors who are looking at this fact pattern. they're asking good questions. and we're trying to probe their minds, but it's real tough to be accurate in this area. >> all right. paul callan, thank you very much. standby. i have a question that i want to pose to my legal panel here, and specifically to holly hughes. as we get later into the evening, whose favor does this play into? the prosecution or the defense? the answer on the other side of the break. >>> those are the faces we have become familiar with over the last couple of months. you saw george zimmerman, his defense team, also the processes cushion and some of the words over the last year, stand your ground. self-defense. profiling. racial profiling. racism. and other words that we can't repeat on television. and it's all playing out right now at the seminole county courthouse in sanford, florida. where on the fifth floor of this courthouse, the fa

juries don't like that. juries don't like when judges play favorites. of course -- you're looking at me. what is that face? >> let me bring in paul on this. i would think that the jury would pick up on the idea that the judge is saying, i don't like you guys, and for whatever reason, don't listen to those guys, don't believe them. believe the people who i think -- who i'm saying are actually right. >> a lot of the stuff you're seeing the jurors aren't seeing all of these arguments and confrontations. listen, there is -- >> hold on, we're going to go back to the court. >> mr. zimmerman, please stand up. i'll remind you, sir, that you're still under oath from when we had you sworn in earlier before the break. did you now have sufficient time to discuss with your attorneys whether or not you wanted to testify in this case? >> yes, your honor. >> i don't need to know what was said, but after those discussions, have you made a decision? >> yes, your honor. >> and what is your decision, sir? >> after consulting with counsel, not to testify, your honor. >> oka

a jury of six women. we know the alternates have all been dismissed, so we're talking about a jury of six women at this point that will make that decision. let me tell you a little bit about their professions. we know some information about that. one is a certified nursing assistant. one owns a construction company with a spouse. one is a former chiropractor. another a retired from real estate and a former financial services worker. we also have some information, kate, about these jurors when it comes to weapons. one has a family member who owns firearms. one used to carry a concealed weapons permit. and another, her husband has a handgun, her son owns a rifle. this jury is, you know, for some of these women are well-versed and understand what it means to own and carry a firearm. they also, you know, spent time listening to all the evidence in this case and they will apply their own knowledge, also the evidence, the facts they learned in this case to make a decision on george zimmerman. >> all right, joge

respectfully, that's up to the jury, not mr. west. so the issue is i think the provocation language should be included. the only issue that i hear is whether or not it also ought to on top of the issue of provocation include the phrase force or threat of force. and again, carrying a firearm or grabbing or accosting to the point that someone hears let go and a physical struggle, that is evidence of force or threat of force. it doesn't say -- gibbs certainly doesn't say deadly force because of course gibbs is itself a nondeadly force case in the first instance. so the state's argument is the against is arguing what is credible, not what is actual. >> i understand both arguments. >> as a matter of law, following someone on foot or by car is not against the law. you are absolutely allowed to do that if you want to. and especially if you want to tell police where the person is. that cannot be considered provocation under the law just like because you happen to have a concealed weapons permit and have a licensed firearm on your person, that

so this is a very hardworking jury. i would just assume, guess, and, of course, i could be wrong, is that they are not -- they're not staying this late just because they think they're going to go on for another three or four days. they're staying this late because they think they can get it done today. >> is there anything to read into the judge was supposed to, you know, at one point the judge came out and said, during the clarificati clarification, remember, jeffrey, when she sent the note back saying i'm going to send this note back with the court officer, give me 15 minutes, guys, and i'll get back to you and let you know. we didn't hear from her for those 15 minutes. then in that time she invited them to go to dinner and the jury kept working. that we haven't heard from the judge in this, does that add anything to this? >> you know, we're starting to get into the logistics of dinner and -- >> i know. i'm asking you to read the tea leaves and crystal ball. >> there could be logistical things about where they're gett

jury selection begins. ten days later, a six-member panel is assembled out of all women and the rile begins on june 24. both sides present opening arguments and the jury hears from the first witnesses. one day later they see the first pieces of evidence, graphic photos of trayvon martin's body. then the neighbors take the stand. there's dramatic testimony from rachel jeantel. on a lead investigator in the case testifies. a re-enactment of the scuffle. the state examiner takes the stand and says the injuries were minor. martin's brother and mother testify. plan particular screams are heard on 911 tapes were from trayvon. last monday, five witnesses testified for the defense. the voice belongs to zimmerman. zimmerman's family also said it was him. the next day, a forensic expert says the evidence supports zimmerman's story. the defense rests on wednesday. george zimmerman tells the judge that he won't take the stand. that the prosecution gets closing arguments. the judge says she will allow the jury to consid

i mean, i think after observing this jury this is a very methodical jury.ury i think that's going to be very deliberative. i think they will be very cooperative as well though so i think to -- to expect a verdict very, very quickly, i'm not there, but i think it's anyone's guess. >> mark, same thing? >> no, i'm in vegas tomorrow so i've already let the jury know i don't want to interrupt my vegas trip so they are not coming back until at least sunday at 2:00 when i land. >> okay. i'll keep that in mind. listen, to everybody on the panel. thanks so much. want to get caught up on some of the other stories we're following. randi kaye is here. >> a third victim from asiana flight 214 has guide. the girl had been in critical condition at san francisco jrngs according to a hospital spokeswoman. 304 others survived saturday's crash, and this evening the runway at san francisco's international airport reopened. >>> cleveland kidnapping suspect ariel castro now faces 977 counts, including aggravated murder, related to allegations he intentionally caused the terminat

not only on this jury but on almost every jury in america. that's because a felony disenfranchisement laws which means convicted felons cannot serve on juries. in some states, that's as many as one in three or one in four african-american men. across the board, african-americans are underrepresented on juries and african-americans are overrepresented as defendants. meaning they're far less likely to get a jury of their peers. >> and far more represented in incarceration. even john guy said -- >> we're going to go listen to the state's attorney now. let's listen to their reaction to the not guilty verdict. >> we are so proud to stand before you and to tell you that when we announce the charges, 15 months ago, we also promise that we would seek the truth for trayvon martin and due process for george zimmerman. that we would give all of the facts and details of this very difficult case before a jury. and that we chose to do it that way because we felt that everyone had a right to know everything about this case. that for a case like this to come

>> well, what is satisfactory is what the jury decides. we don't have a choice in that, we don't get to vote. i think there is a case made for both murder two and for manslaughter because manslaughter is a lesser included offense of -- i'm sorry, yeah, manslaughter is a lesser included offense of murder, too. so that's why the jury will be given that option. >> bun crump quite rightly feels very passionate about this. many people feel very passionate about this. emotions are running very high. in the end, this jury will operate to florida law and will be directed to do so. >> yeah. >> it's very clear to me, talking to florida judges and particular judge alex and others who have great experience there that really, it all comes down to george zimmerman's state of mind when he pulled the trigger. >> whether or not his mind was reasonable to the average person. that's what the jury will decide, were his actions reasonable? the actions don't start in the middle of a struggle. they start from the beginning of him getting out of the car armed wit

question about the jury instructions. we all heard them on live tv, they're available online but they're confusing. they've gotten better but they're still confusing for lay people to understand all the terminolo terminology. jury instructions or decided by a form in the state and the judge can change them a little bit. we saw that in the charge con presen -- conference yesterday. but if there's a question about jury question, the judge will tell them use your own interpretation and go back there and do your best. >> is it possible, though, that they're either trying to decide between manslaughter and second degree murder or manslaughter and not guilty? >> you know, anything is possible. as i've said, the only thing this they really have to do is choose a foreperson at the beginning and come to a verdict at the end if they can. in between they can do what they want to do, they can discuss the issues and the topics and the evidence in the order that they see fit. there's no question that it's a bad sign for the defense tha

in fact, in closing, the government said to the jury, john guy said to the jury this is not about race. certainly there was the argument i think early on that the government's theory was based on racial profiling, but the word racial profiling was not introduced in this trial. in fact, what they refer to was criminal profiling. that's completely appropriate because there were other young black teens that george zimmerman says were burglarizing homes and he identified trayvon martin as another person possibly burglarizing homes. for him it seemed to have been the fact that he may be a criminal which is why he called the police and called him a suspect. i think many people are saying that this case is about race. certainly in the courtroom that i've been sitting in every day, that hasn't been mentioned. >> a lot of it goes to the fact that the arrest took a long time, and people believe that's because the victim was african-american. >> prior to the trial. >> prior to the trial, the reason there wasn't arrest early on was because the victim was black. if the victim had been white, it wou

this jury is going the hear this law from the court and they're going to be like every jury. they're going to have a hard time going through it because the lawyers can't even agree what that gobbledygook means when the judge reads that law to the jury. >> faith, having said, that and about seeing the gun or grabbing for the gun, let me show you some of what john guy laid out in terms of the inconsistencies, and tell me whether that addresses some of that from the prosecution's standpoint. >> sean noffke told me to get an address. that didn't happen. listen to the tapes. listen to the walk-through. and listen to the non-emergency call. sean noffke never said that. why? why lie about that? it's so important. that's why. because he wasn't going back to the car. he was going back to trayvon martin. trayvon martin covered his mouth and nose. really? you really think if that were true there wouldn't be george zimmerman's blood on these sticks that they pried under his fingernails? do you really think that's true? that was a lie. there is only two people on this earth who know what

this jury is going to hear this law from this court, and they're going to be like every jury. they're going to have a hard time going through it, because lawyers can't even agree what that gobbledygook means when the judge reads that law to that jury. >> faith, having said that, and about seeing the gun or grabbing for the gun, let me show you some of what john guy laid out in terms of the inconsistencies and tell me whether that addresses some of that from the prosecution's standpoint. >> sean knoffke told me to get an address. that didn't happen. listen to the tapes. listen to the walk-through and listen to the non-emergency call. sean knoffke never said that. why? why lie about that? it's so important, that's why. because he wasn't going back to the car. he was going back to trch trchl. trayvon martin covered his mouth and nose. really? you really think if that were true there wouldn't be george zimmerman blood on these sticks that they pried under his fingernails? do you really think that's true? that was a lie. there's only two people on this earth who know what really ha

it's not a 12-person jury, in state of florida you only have a 12 person jury in a capital case. zimmerman is convicted of second-degree murder faces 25 years to life in prison. >> heather: phil, thank you. with the case resting in the hands of the jury. let's take a look back. it was back on february 26 of last year that trayvon martin was shot and killed. at the time police referred to george zimmerman although not by name as a suspect. a month and a half later, he is charged about second-degree murder and taken into custody. fast forward to june of this year. jury selection begins. ten days later a six member panel is assembled out of all women. trial begins on june 24th, both sides present opening arguments. one day later they see the first pieces of evidence, graphic photos of trayvon martin's body. then neighbors take the stand and dramatic testimony from rachel jentell she was the on the phone with trayvon martin right before he died. july 1st, lead investigator in the case testified. jurors see an reenactment of the scuffle. next day the state medical examiner takes the s

that's the charge this jury has. there are six members of the jury.eliberating and will resume tomorrow. >> right. and there's two considerations they have, which is of course second degree murder or manslaughter. and i think it has been the concern for the defense that the manslaughter charge could possibly be considered as a compromise charge, at least again in the minds of the defense the jury could say it's not going to be murder but we have a young person who is dead and thereby manslaughter seems like a way to sort of compromise. of course what mark o'mara said in his summation self-defense works for everything. self-defense is what they say, self-defense would apply whether it was murder or manslaughter. that's what he has argued so strongly. but it's interesting, as jeffrey pointed out, we've gone into deliberations and it appears that this jury is now looking at maybe the long haul. maybe it's tomorrow, maybe not. but they certainly are asking now for a list of the evidence. they want a description of all the evidence. i would have thought by

we are used to juries being 12. and fewer people doesn't mean easier. >> most cases it is a 12 person jury. fewer people that need to agree, but six people in a complicated case have to agree. >> when you say potentially and 95 percent is a good average. you go to vegas with that average you are doing well. we are talking about a man's life here. and so now, you walk in the courtroom, and showed video. just the posture of george zimmerman, shaking hands and smiles that were changed. the defense conversation with the client and how are they helping navigate. that is an insightful catch. the lawyers are telling him what they told everybody which is watching, george, the reality it is a high possibility that they have moved past the second-degree murder and considering the lower only and carve in some wiggle room as lawyers, however that is a possibility is not the case but the poenlt is that is not the case. >> his arms are open and shaking hands. we are making sure we are not giving out information but we have eyes a

i think after observing this jury, this is a very methodical jury.oing to be very deliberate and very cooperative as well, though. i think to expect a verdict very, very quickly, i'm not there, but i think it's anyone's guess. >> mark, same thing? >> i'm in vegas tomorrow, so i've already let the jury know i don't want to interrupt my vegas trip, so they're not coming back until at least sunday at 2:00 when i land. >> i'll keep that in mind. thank you very much. i want to get caught up with some of the other stories with randi kaye. >> a third victim from asiana airlines flight 214 has died. the girl had been in critical condition. 304 others survived saturday's crash. this evening, the runway at san francisco's international airport reopened. >>> cleveland kidnapping suspect ariel castro now faces 977 counts. that nearly triples the amount of charges against him and covers and a decade when the three girls were allegedly raped in his home. >>> homeland security secretary janet napolitano is resigning in saturday. no word yet on a success sor. >> i h

and if there's a split jury, if there's a split jury, how do they get around that?hey're going to need to come to some kind of unanimous decision here. >> they have to make compromises and when i say quick, i'm not saying like in two hours. if -- it's going to take two hours to read the instructions. but i think they'll work through tonight, tomorrow morning, and come up wavered. but when you're looking at jurors that are split, you're looking at group dynamics. how people communicate differently. how they might think when they're individual is a whole different story when they get into a group deliberation. they start to make compromises. so, i think second degree is off the table. looking at probably manslaughter or complete acquittal. what i think is going happen with all the emotion is dependent on what do the majority of the people and then they'll make some compromises, and i apologize. we have protesters behind us screaming and yelling. that is what you're hearing the background. >> no need to apologize, any way to tell how comfortable the jurors are with eac

if this was an all african-american or all jewish jury or 65-year-old jury, would we be engaging in this yes, we would. >> absolutely would. >> it's an oddity. >> like we're some kind of strange life form and like we can make generalizations about women. if this case teaches us anything, it's not to generalize based on immutable characteristics like race or gender. >> lisa, i think the world of your opinion. i totally disagree. it is a monolithic jury. >> it's not monolithic. >> i don't know how to read it. >> they're different ages. they're different occupations. >> have you ever seen a jury all male or all female? >> no, i haven't. but these women are very different from each other. just because they're all women? >> i'm not being critical of them. i'm just saying i think it's very unusual. and the fact that both sides would settle on them. i want to find out later what went into the jury selection. >> than the fact that they are women. one of them supervises 1200 people. another is a chiropractor's assistant. can we talk what they do? >> condescending statement about females. it's not

you get a jury instruction, take a look at the jury instruction. a witness's attitude in giving testimony is absolutely irrelevant -- i mean, is relevant. whether don west wasn't asking for a curative instruction is beyond me because what he told that jury is not the state of the law. that is absolutely not what the jury instruction reads. you can absolutely take a look at her attitude, demeanor, like any other witness and if you feel that there's a problem with that, you can discount or you take that testimony with a grain of salt. that is -- >> can you discount her testimony because she can't read cursive? can you discount her testimony -- >> no, no, that has nothing -- >> because she's not relatable? >> if she says -- i -- did i argue that? i don't think i did, sunny. i'm not danny. what i'm telling you is they told have objected to the time that's not the law because it's clearly not what the jury will get -- >> you have all argued at one time or another that a defense -- that a person on the stand was relatable. i mean, sunny, you've argued fo

i don't know that i've ever seen a jury take notes the way this jury took notes.nd it's also clear to me that they've gelled. they have been sequestered together. remember, there was no jury, no courtroom on july 4. they were able to go out together. they eat together. i've recently seen some of them offer mints to each other. one of them put a shaw on the shoulders of another. this is a group of women who are getting together and getting along quite well. and so that kind of situation, i think you do have that collaborative type of deliberations as opposed to some where you see everyone is butting heads. i do not get that sense from this jury. >> in terms of sequester, what does that mean? they're staying in a hotel room, ten jurors, four are alternates? are they allowed to stay in contact with their friends? they can't watch reports like this on the news. but they can watch old tv? >> normally when there was newspapers they would cut out articles and give them the newspaper. sometimes they'll give them movies and things like that. today the reason they wanted to

. >> the jury would like to adjourn at 6:00 p.m. the jury would like to begin tomorrow at 9:00 a.m. if possible. anybody have objections in. >> no your honor. >> no, your honor. >> they got the case about 2:00 eastern time, two hours and got evidence in the case and the judge says it's up to them to decide what to believe. tonight we'll look at what they will weigh, who they are and what goes on during deliberations. we'll look at the allegation of the defense counsel mark o'mara made to martin savidge. he says this case never would have made it to court had it not been for a publicity campaign, a smeared campaign by the martin legal time. first martin savidge's report as each side made the final pitch today to the jury. >> reporter: defense attorney mark o'mara began the closing argument reminding jurors the prosecution had to prove it's case against george zimmerman. and pointed out the prosecutor's own words lacked conviction. >> how many could have beens have you heard from the state in this case? how many what ifs? >> reporter: then mark o'mara said what he was not obligated to

i can't argue that to the jury. the jury wants to do it fine.wyers have no place in there especially mocking the jury if they didn't give you the verdict they wanted. >> ted? >> i try to listen to miss rand. i think if miss rand could do another interview with you she would probably walk it back. but what we also must realize and keep in mind here is that you had two brilliant lawyers. ben crump and dale poggs who went out when nobody wanted to even touch this case, they went out and sought social justice. they were not social engineers. the social engineering thing, i don't know the definition of it. i don't think that it has anything to to with a jury. we have to respect what the jury did. >> let me go to you, diana, slightly different topic. the attorney general of tunited states said today in this country you have a duty to retreat. i have gone to the jury instructions in florida. it says in part that the defendant had no duty to retreat and had the right to stand his ground. then i go to the federal jury instructions for reference. i've gon

i respect the jury's verdict. this is no criticism of the jury verdict. i believe wholeheartedly we live in the greatest country in the world but i am disappointed. i've been trying a lot of cases. i've tried 300 something cases about, 8 ol murder cases. this is only my second murder case that i've lost. i thought he was guilty. but what matters is what the jury said and i accept it. i don't know if that answered your question. >> could i get your impression of the 2005 expansion of the florida self-defense statutes? does this make your job harder? >> self-defense has existed for a long time and we've dealt with it in jackson for a long time. we've tried a lot of self-defense cases. i personally have tried 12, 15 self-defense cases. the law really hasn't changed that much. stand your ground was a big thing but really the law hasn't changed. we believe in the right to bear arms and the right to self-defense. we felt in this case that it was not appropriate. >> hi, i'm with "usa today." johnen guile talked about the fact that this was going to be a verdict

it was a 27-page jury charge. it was a good jury charge.member, the defense and the prosecution both agreed to the jury instructions. they worked on it for a while. they had a conference on it in open court. we have a copy of the jury instructions. they were pretty clear. i think what we saw yesterday with that question was are jurors trying to reach a consensus. that's what that was about, and i will tell you, i think i said it -- i'm pretty sure i said it on air yesterday when don lemon asked me what do you think about the fact that they never came back with a specific, you know, request. i said that sounds like it's good news for the defense. >> george, any final thought before we've got to go? >> you know, again, the biggest thing is you saw the prosecutors making the point that, you know, this is a case that they still believed in. angela corey said, you know, she respected the verdict but still disagreed with the facts of this case. >> and it is decided this morning. >> people are going to have feelings about it, they're going to be p

families, the fate of george zimmerman is almost in the hands of a jury, a jury that heard passionate closing arguments from the prosecution. >> trayvon martin, he was staying, he was there legally. he hadn't broken in or trespassed. he was there legally. he bought skittles and water mel lean or iced tea or whatever. that was his crime. >>> six women, five mothers will decide if zimmerman murdered trayvon martin or acted in self-defense. the jury may consider the lesser charge of manslaughter. that's important for the state and they hammered at the notion the unarmed black teenager was the aggressor. >> why does this defendant get out of the car if he thinks that trayvon martin is a threat to him? why? why? because he's got a gun. he's got the equalizer. he's going to take care of it. he's a want to be cop. >> we begin with martin savidge outside the courthouse in sanford. martin, what a day. highly emotional that closing argument from the prosecutor. i found it gripping to watch, and i have to say, if i was a member of that jury, compelling. >> right. let me point out the closing sta

the six- person jury made up of all women.ed the case last night and they are currently taking a lunch break after three hours of deliberations this morning. once that verdict comes in. many people are wondering how the community of sanford plans to react to the decision. a small crowd is gathering outside of the seminole courthouse and sheriff deputies are on hand and everyone is hoping to cope the peace following the verdict. the mayor is on the phone with his thoughts. >> thank you for having me. >> let's talk for a moment about the mood in the community at this time. i know the sheriff publicly talked about the verdict once it comes in and saying that the community will not tolerate violence after the verdict is in. it is absolutely true. that is our top law enforcement officers and there is plans in place. last year we saw demonstrations and every one of them was peaceful and there was no arrest or violence. we expect people to be around waiting for the verdict and you know, we expect that it is going to be peaceful, that

if the jury can't reach a unanimous decision, we have a hung jury and a mistrial would be declared. >> the let's get back down to sanford, florida. don lemon is outside the courthouse. he's been working the scene. i understand you got a chance to talk to basically everybody involved including the prosecutors which is very unusual. good morning. >> reporter: good morning. it's as they say god works in mysterious ways. there was a little bit of misdirection this morning. so i got to the courtroom late. i said, man, i missed the jury. as i got to the courtroom, i got in a little late. the jury was leaving, but the zimmermans were coming out, so i got to see the family. george zimmerman's family. they were a bit solemn. i got to see his wife. i got to see the defense team's wife and their family as well. and so they walked away. so i went back downstairs to report on it, but we were in taped programming. so i went back into the courtroom and the court officers directed me back to the fifth floor. i go to the fifth floor, chris and kate, and there is george zimmerman as i round the corner

when could the jury get the case? >> reporter: jury could get the case as early as midday friday. could be afternoon friday. but at 1:00 this afternoon, bernie de la rionda is scheduled to make the closing states for the state. and the defense tomorrow. and after that the state will have an opportunity for rebuttal up to one hour. judge nelson has given the state and defense up to three hours to make their initial closing arguments. right now in court, we should note judge nelson going page by page over the jury instructions each side made some notes, suggested changes if you will. and they're trying to merge those to. at issue of course you indicated earlier at issue is whether the jury will be allowed to consider lesser charges. manslaughter charge, perhaps assault, as well. just a few moments ago, the first order of business, the defense indicated that it wanted the word defendant replaced with george zimmerman throughout all of the charging documents, throughout all of the jury instructions. and judge nelson agreed and george zimmerman -- word defendant, rather, will be replac

what will the jury say? webb is the host of "the david webb show and charles is a "new york times" columnist and cnn contributor. welcome to boast you. charles, let me start with you. you wrote a lot about this case and spoke a lot about this case. we're getting to the end now. race is an inescapable huge part of this, regardless what played out in court. >> i think that that's probably true, more true in the way that people are viewing it. we don't know how much race had to do with the actual incident itself. but i think one thing that is important to always remember about discussions about bias is that you don't have to articulate biases or be aware they are within you to be operational, so that you can have -- you can think you are completely egalitarian and you want to be that way and you can subconsciously act on biases. so what we have to keep asking ourselves is what is it about trayvon martin on that particular night that activated a threat response in george zimmerman? and if you -- you know, in ord

this jury has been a hard working jury.f they come back in and say they're done for the day -- >> they do have a question. we don't know what it is. >> smart lady. >> finally a question. it's about that time. they've lived with the facts for several weeks now. they've lived with the facts to deliberate from in the jury room for about 12 hours. conventional wisdom always says that usually and generally you get an hour for each day. >> there is -- sorry about that, sunny. there is george zimmerman walking into the courtroom. you see his parents walking behind him and his wife as well. funny, i ran into them this morning as they were leaving the courtroom. you see him sitting down next to don west and also mark o'mara on the far side. >> this is a very difficult time for attorneys, because the case is out of your hands at this point. you've done everything that you could have done. you know, you are living with the would have, should have, could have, and the only guidance you have is from these jury questions. so it's a littl

i respect the jury. i will ask you this, if the situation was reversed and if you were the brother of trayvon martin and -- or say you are the brother of george zimmerman and he had been killed in the same situation reversed. trayvon got out of the vehicle, had got a gun, got involved in an alter indication and pulled out the gun and killed your brother dead, how do you feel on a human level and emotional level about that? >> two things, that is tragic. and if trayvon were my brother and he was the one armed and legally armed and you know, able to carry that firearm in a legal way, and my brother blind sided him by breaking his nose and pummeling him into concrete and continued to punch him. i would find and the jury has found that unfortunately he had the greater hand in his own demise, which was causing by his own hand, his death. that is unfortunate, but that is what i believe. >> you believe that a 17-year-old boy armed with a bag of candy. >> look, we can be synical about it to the end of time. >> n

it could be a hung jury.though we have six people, they may not all agree. >> a hung jury would probably take a long time. the judge would probably send them back, go try to find a verdict again. do you agree that a quick verdict probably suggests conviction? >> i think that's generally true and with only six people on the panel, i think we'll get a decision fairly soon. i'm estimating saturday. i think they're going to wrap things up, because i think they've already got opinions going into that room. >> they haven't been able to talk, but probably as paul's saying they already have some opinions. they've been away from their families, what to you think, friday, saturday, monday? >> i'll be leaving mass with my kids and getting out at about 11:00. at 11:30 there will be an announcement of manslaughter. >> thattes an a pretty specific time estimate. >> i'm a military guy, precision. >> keep an eye on that. >> so with the jury made up of six people, how, i enmoo, what would a hung jury look like? is it just one

what has the jury heard last? they heard both closing arguments, they heard the instructions from the judge. let's listen to john guy here. >> let's start at the 7 h-eleve where tha child had every right to be where he was. that child had every right to do what he was doing, walking home. that child had every right to be afraid of a strange man following him, first in his car and then on foot. and did that child not have the right to defend himself from that strange man? did trayvon martin not also have that right? >> so, holly, help us understand here. obviously the prosecution has a fallback strategy of having some charge that could involve child abuse also get them a conviction. child, child, child. trayvon martin was 17 years old. effective there or overdone? >> no. what you're doing, as a trial lawyer, you don't just want to talk about facts in evidence, john, you want to connect with that jury, so you want to talk about universal truths. you want to use themes. and what john guy is doing, and very subtly her

this is an educated jury.y understand that even if the word "racial" isn't there that someone is suggesting racial profiling. don't you think? >> absolutely. i think this case has followed the same contours of the way we handle race in the broader society, which is to say we talk about it by not talking about it. when the prosecutor came up to the jury and said mr. zimmerman made assumptions or he profiled him as a criminal and so on, anyone could tell, you know, what he was getting at there. and so race is there. it's just we can't say so explicitly. i also think it's telling to the extent that it been discussed in the case, the only explicit instance is when mark o'mara was questioning rachel jeantel around we were going through the whole creepy ass crack ercracke not sure if i can say that on the air, it was said that trayvon martin had a racial mindset going into the situation. i think they'll throw anything they can at the wall and see if it sticks. this is really about the same way we deal with race in t

>> i would not have liked this jury because there's no african-americans on the jury.d someone who can fight and understand the issues and educate the other jurors. you may have that with the mixed lady but if you don't have someone to appreciate the issues that are there in the court then you can buy into a stereo tippic notion and the defense played to that argument. i think the jury make up is problematic but you didn't predict. >> lisa. >> i think it is one of the great mysteries of the system we have in the yiet when you bring jurors into a room, i was on a jury once and was confident the prosecution made its case and we would quickly decide and got into the room. it was a 12-person juror. the vote was 9-3 and it tookous hours. we're tempted to get to the end but it's the jurors that will decide. >> thank you. we're on verdict watch here at msnbc. be sure to stay with us. we're watching the trial closely. >>> in london the city is on royal baby watch. anticipation is building as the city prepares for the birth of the first child of prince william and kate middleto

i don't know that i've ever seen a jury take notes the way this jury took notes. it's also clear to me that they've gelled. they have been sequestered together. remember, there was no jury, no courtroom on july 4. they were able to go out together. they eat together. i've recently seen some of them offer mints to each other. one of them put a shawl on the shoulders of another. this is a group of women who are getting together and getting along quite well. and so that kind of situation, i think you do have that collaborative type of deliberations as opposed to some where you see everyone is butting heads. i do not get that sense from this jury. >> in terms of sequester, what does that mean? they're staying in a hotel room, there's ten people, six jurors, four alternates. are they able to stay in contact with family and friends? they can't watch reports like this on the news but they can watch regular tv? >> normally in the old days when there was newspapers, they would cut out articles and give them the newspaper. sometimes they'll give them movies and things like

no recommendation from a jury. their soul job is to come in and either determine guilt or not guilty. with that if it's a guilty verdict on any count, then it is up to the judge for sentencing. may i say one other point? i'm sorry, wolf. i'm sorry. the judge has no discretion as far as minimum as it relates to certain minimum mandatory sentences. there, that's the discretion taken from her. certain offenses, she has to give the minimum. >> mark nejame and george howell standing by with us. the judge is taking a half hour recess to let the lawyers prepare a little more for the argument as whether or not lesser charges should be allowed to be considered by the jury in the george zimmerman murder trial. we'll have a lot more coverage, live coverage once they resume. other important news we're following, including an area south of colorado springs already devastated by fire and now dealing with a new and messy problem. mudslides. cars being swept away in a river of mud. this incredible video was shot in manitou springs

jury. because, of course, they are laypeople. they have not heard what they are going to be instructed to do. and this is a very important part of the process. because while we've been watching and hearing the attorneys argue about the facts of this case and arguing with they believe the evidence will show, now the judge is going to instruct them on the law. that's why we're all here, right? we want the jury to follow the law and apply it to the facts. she's now going to become basically their law professor. she's going to explain to them what they are tasked to do. they are tasked to determine whether or not george zimmerman is guilty of second degree murder or whether or not that crime was justified or excusable. and then if they don't find him guilty of second-degree murder, they're also going to be charged and instructed by this judge, who i think, by the way, has just done a terrific job of building a rapport with this jury, she's going to instruct them that they can also consider mans

i respect the jury's verdict. this is no criticism of the jury verdict. i expect believe whole heartedly that we live in the greatest country of the world. i'm disappointed. i've been trying a lot of cases. i tried 300 cases, 80 something murder cases. this is only my second murder case that i've lost. am i disappointed? yes. i thought he was guilty. what matters is what the jury said and i accept it. i don't know if that answered your question. >> could i get your impression of the 2005 expansion of the florida self defense statutes? does this make your job harder? >> you know, self defense has existed for a long time, and we've dealt with it in jacksonville for a long time. i personally have tried 10 or 15 self defense cases. they're tough cases, but we accept them. the law really hasn't changed that much. stand your ground was a big thing. really, the law hasn't changed. we believe in the right to bear arms and the right to self defense. we felt in this case it was not appropriate. >> hi. john guy talked about the fact that this was going to be a verdi

five members of the jury are white. if he had brought up race without having specific evidence of race, could that have backfired? >> absolutely. >> did he say by saying profiling and preassumptions, didn't he put where the jury may be able to see that without raising race and then the defense saying no one came in here and said there was a race problem? >> the prosecutor is using the word profiling. these jurors know exactly what he is referring to. they know that the prosecutor is not saying that zimmerman profiled trayvon because he didn't like the kind of candy he was carrying. they know that the prosecutors arguing they profiled him because of the way he look and how he was dressed. they understand that. they also know that these prior calls are coming in, and that his mind-set started developing not on the night that he saw trayvon martin, but months prior to that, leading up to this incident and the night that he saw trayvon martin when he said they're not going to get away. he meant it, because then he followed

if you have to, do it in the jury room. if he was up on his waist, his waist is covered by trayvon martin's legs. he couldn't have got the gun. he couldn't have. they wanted a reason? it's a physical impossibility. >> and then guy bluntly characterized george zimmerman state of mind when he decided to shoot. >> the defendant didn't shoot trayvon martin because he had to. he shot him because he wanted to. that's the bottom line. >> lisa bloom, you've been wondering when the prosecution would address this issue of access or lack thereof to the weapon. how did they do on that today? >> i have a different perspective than this prosecution team. it's not who got the gun. we know that george zimmerman got the got and shot it at trayvon martin. it's trayvon martin's ability to see the gun. they say trayvon mash sin saw the gun. if you can eliminate trayvon martin seeing the gun you can undercut the self-defense. you do that in the most compelling way possible for as long as possible during your closing argument that the gun was ho

hearing about a jury of his peers and jury of his peers. you don't have a constitution of the final jury being representative or a peer, whatever that may be. all that requires is that the jury pooled from a reasonable cross section of the community. your ultimate jury as long as it satisfies batson, can be six females. >> it's interesting you hear b 37 believes trayvon martin played a role in his own death, that -- i mean, she -- done this equally part of this. >> she's very judge mental about that and the part that stood out to me is when she said when confronted by zimmerman he could have walked away, he should have left or he could have done something and we wouldn't be here which to me raises the issue what about his self-defense rights? what if he did in that confrontation used the only thing he had, which was his fist and got shot and got shot with this man with no color of authority and no police officer and armed and came at him. we don't know what happened but i find it interesting she's completely judge mental about trayvon mart

>> you can either tell the jury to disregard that witness' testimony.f the most drastic remedies, the dreaded "m," just like mr. geragos' book -- "mistrial." >> love that plug. >> jeff, you wanted to mention the oath, as well? >> right, the oath. >> jeff, do you think the defense is going to rest tomorrow? do you think this is ending tomorrow? >> i do. i think the judge has had it. they're going to start at 8:00 in the morning, which means it's going to be a long trial day. this judge is desperate to get this case to the jury and let these jurors return to their normal lives. i think it's over tomorrow. >> all right. thank you. randi kaye has a "360" bulletin. >>> anderson, investigators have questioned the four pilots aboard the asiana airways jet that crashed in san francisco. they were said to be cooperative and realized the jet speed was too close. as it approached the airport. they were not tested for drugs or alcohol. >>> now to canada. a criminal investigation is under way into the runway train that crashed and burned over the weekend. police say

justice is when you have facts in a courtroom decided by a jury, a jury both sides agree to.is a perfect time for someone to emerge. we don't need trouble, we need leadership. i will add one other thing that bothers me about president obama, who is a lawyer, let's back up to that little spot in cambridge, early on, when he said the cops act -- he said i don't know much about the facts, but the cops acted stupidly. i expect more lawyers. al sharpton is not a lawyer, but he is a leader. i expect more of him. i want him to emerge here as whatever the verdict is to do the right thing and we have to stop picking at old scabs and trying to cause trouble. >> greta, does it bother you that president obama said he wouldn't way in on the gosnell trial but will weigh in on certain things, he'll cherry pick issues he feels are beneficial? >> reporter: i lived in washington way too long to be disturbed by things like that, i say sort of jokingly. i would hope if the president had a chance to think about it would like a do over. the president shouldn't be weighing in on these trials. maybe