mary ellen, thank you so much. i want to start with just your broad reaction to what you heard from jim boulware. >> well, considering that's his father, it makes sense that he's very, you know, upset about losing his son. so, his perspective is what i would expect. i am -- and i've seen this in cases that i've worked. the family will normalize behavior, even behavior that's very violent, and they'll rationalize their child's behavior, or they'll tell you i just never saw it coming. which is what we heard here. and -- >> i wonder, though, what is the added variable here? i mean there are people who have a mistrust of government, who have a palpable anger directed toward law enforcement, and feel desperate. but, they don't go to this extreme. is there one common variable that elevates it to which family and loved ones should then say we need to call authorities? >> i think there is. and in looking at these cases, there's a phenomenon that we've identified, it's called an injustice collector. and these are individual

they're always lying. >> mary ellen, any insight on how to catch him? >> at this point people are saying he is he is exhausted, he is worn out, he is fearful. but that is not consistent with psychopathy. they're remarkably resillientresilient, optimistic individuals though being chased by hundred of law enforcement, the other thing they have a very low threshold for fear. so what would cause you and chris and i to be extremely fearful, he is not at all afraid. and the most dangerous part of it is he will engage in this gratuitous violence if he comes across someone not because -- they keep him from getting the car that he wants to carjack, because he is someone who engages in violence because he enjoys it. >> mary ellen o'toole, chris mahandi, thank you. terrifying. ahead, we'll dig deeper what chris touched on. joyce mitchell's relationship with the two killers on the run. why would she even want to help them? what her family members are saying. that's next. here's to the explorers. those diagnosed with cancer who explored their treatment options by ge

mary ellen, do you know why these policies were instituted? >> i wouldn't know specific to this institution where these policies came from. but i can say that when you analyze joyce's behavior you say, is this a one or a two-time infraction of the rules or was this ongoing behavior so that here's a person who could lower the suspicions of the officers there or other people because she had done it in the past and had done it repeatedly and just doesn't seem to be the kind of person at least in their eyes, who would be coordinating this on behalf of a very violent offender. and so she was very manipulative. and as she gained more and more power within the institution and within those lax laws and policies she probably was actually making decisions on her own how to get around the system and not necessarily even at the request of either richard matt or david sweat. >> and i guess i would suppose maybe it's easy to manipulate a fellow employee to do something to skirt the rules, right, because it happens in many businesses across the country? >> y

mary ellen owe teal, fbi agent for 20 years. ties to have you back on the program, mary ellen.oint in the investigation is someone with your skills on this case and where do you even start? >> yes. we would be. and what we would be doing is working for the prosecutor attempting to do really a 360-degree assessment on this shooter. we would want to find out, for example, how long this planning had gone on. we would want to find out about this weapon or any other weapons. we would want to find out about his writings, his postings. we would take him back to the time he was practically a newborn so we understood what made this person tick. jenna: that not to explain or justify the acts for any reason but for a specific purpose. what is that purpose? >> it is for several purposes. we want to find out the full extent of his problems. maybe there are other crimes involved that we're simply not aware of. not certainly on this level but we would still want to find out who he was interacting with, who he associated with. maybe those were people that were listen to what he said but the le

a lone one at that but a terrorist act. >> mary ellen? >> this was a terrorist act, it was terrifying listening to the narrative was chilling and it was absolutely stunning. but that said when you -- when i listen to the motivation that this individual has in terms of the suspension and the friction between him and this victim it does seem that his -- this was not instrumental violence. this was reaction airy to his relationship with her, and -- >> let me ask you this. it does seem reaction airy given the timing of when the incident happened. does that make it not terror? >> i think it's terrifying but at the same time i think when this case goes into court, the foundation upon which they had to make that decision is is it going to fit the statute of terrorism, or is it going to fit the statute of workplace violence? >> i want to show the audience the domestic terrorism statute so they can see forthemselves. it involves acts dangerous to human life that violates state law. check. that appear to intimidate or coerce a civilian population.

that's for mary ellen. >> it's absolutely horrifying.assessment of this. you can have a radicalized terrorist who for example goes home and kills his spouse or comes to work and acts out violently. the fact that he has that in his background does not make every act of violence an act of terrorism.a but i completely get the idea that this was really behaviorally an act of terror. and my position is that being able to present a strong motivation in court with all these other things brought in would be the best of really both worlds so that the jury can understand really what made this guy tick. >> so many people would like to t see the charleston murders charges as an act of terror. and i completely understand that. and there is a real question, though, whether that same pp standard should apply here where this man clearly terrorized his victims. and some would argue meets the legal definition as well. thank you both for your expertise. when we come back, a special message from tracy johnson. i know i have a 798 fico score. [score alert te

a lone one at that but a terrorist act. >> mary ellen?fying listening to the narrative was chilling and it was absolutely stunning. but that said when you -- when i listen to the motivation that this individual has in terms of the suspension and the friction between him and this victim it does seem that his -- this was not instrumental violence. this was reaction airy to his relationship with her, and -- >> let me ask you this. it does seem reaction airy given the timing of when the incident happened. does that make it not terror? >> i think it's terrifying but at the same time i think when this case goes into court, the foundation upon which they had to make that decision is is it going to fit tf terrorism, or is it going to fit the statute of workplace violence? >> i want to show the audience the domestic terrorism statute so they can see for themselves. it involves acts dangerous to human life that violates state law. check. that appear to intimidate or coerce a civilian population. and that occurred primarily within the united states.

. >> mary ellen is quick to comment on this as well but i see here a person who is a coward. somebody who did not have control, was trying regain control by a group that he thought company control. and he was so cowardly he could not bring himself to take his own life. >> mary ellen the fact that he sat there in this group as i said in the introduction of trust, of faith, reading the bible for an hour and then killed them all, save for a few, what does that tell us? >> that's very important behavior. and the prosecutor will need to be aware of what that behavior indicates. there was a detachment between him and those victims. during that hour he probably knew their names. some of them embraced him. they were friendly to him. they welcomed him into the group. and yet at the end of that hour he began shooting them. this is someone that had no empathy. he didn't connect with these people as other humans. saw them more as objects. and something has to explain that kind of behavior. in addition to the fact that he was apparently cool calm and collective and i'm sure they were scre

. >>> let's bring in former fbi profiler and msnbc contributor clint van zandt and mary ellen o'tooleescapee richard matt, just seven months before he tortured, killed, and dismembered his boss, the crime that put him in prison. in the video, he's called ricky and it shows him posing with a blow dart gun. here's some of that video. >> this is my friend ricky matt here, he's a freaking crazy lunatic maniac. >> is this the face of a maniac? >> this is the south american blow gun. >> and we're going to demonstrate. >> we're going to demonstrate how powerful this gun is today. >> we're going to dip these in blood and we'll put a patent on them and sell them as deadly weapons. >> so clint, when you see that video, one of the guys who is on the loose, probably in the woods, when you see that, what are you looking at there? >> well, this is part of his persona, i think, number one. i think this guy is a functional sociopath, psychopath and a social personality. but he's a cunning individual, and he likes to present himself in a way. this is manly. the rest of the video shows this other indiv

they're always lying. >> mary ellen, any insight on how to catch him? >> at this point, people are saying he's exhausted. he's worn out. but that's not consistent. he's being kwhased by hundreds of law enforcement. and the other thing is they have a very low threshold for fear. so what would cause you and chris and i to be extremely fearful, he's not at all afraid. and the most dangerous part of it is he will engage in this gratuitous violence if he comes across someone. not because they keep him from getting the car that he wants to carjack because he is someone who engages in violence because he enjoys it. >> thanks so much. terrifying. just ahead, we're going to dig deeper onto what chris touched on a moment ago. joyce mitchell's relationship. why would she want to ep help them. hi, my name is cliff. i'm tom. my name is eric. and i help make beneful. i help make beneful. i help make beneful. after working here, there's no other food i'd feed my pets. each ingredient is tested by our own quality insurance people. i see all the quality data everything

mary ellen owe teal. thank you so much.n our politicians lead today, dennis hastert mopped outside court as he faced a judge for the first time. what did he have to say outside the courtroom. >>> loud calls for this police officer to be fired after a video showing him pulling his gun and drags a 14-year-old girl to the ground. we're learning new details on his history, including where he was sued for racial bias the suit was dropped and dismissed. vo: today's the day. more and more people with type 2 diabetes are learning about long-acting levemir®. as my diabetes changed it got harder to control my blood sugar. today, i'm asking about levemir®. vo: levemir® is an injectable insulin that can give you blood sugar control for up to 24 hours. and levemir® helps lower your a1c. levemir® lasts 42 days without refrigeration. that's 50% longer than lantus® which lasts 28 days. levemir® comes in flextouch® the latest in insulin pen technology from novo nordisk. levemir® is a long-acting insulin used to control high blood sugar in a

i want to bring in joe from the john jay college, and also our fbi profiler mary ellen o'toole.d the dna, and this is a game changer? >> yes, anderson, it is a significant break for law enforce enforcement, and it is a closest scent they have had since the dogs last week. so, the dna found in the cabin along with the possible sighting of these two individuals certain ly reenergizes the law enforcement on the hunt, and allow s the law enforcement to cast the net in that area. >> and professor kobilinsky, the dna was identified quickly, and it seems that in a lot of cases, you can't get the dna in a week or two. >> well, first of all, these are convicted felons and therefore their genetic profiles are on codis, and so we have that je genetic background for both of them, and so now it is extraordinary what we can do these adays, and we have a r.a.p.i.d. that can be in one day if you are prioritizing and put your people there, and day and night. >> and you vhave the genetic profile of the people already on it. >> yes, and you need biological evidence. apparently that is what they fo

mary ellen o'toole. six days since the escapees got out and yet no signs of them seemingly. what is going through your mind as an investigator who is searching this area where we just saw jason carroll right now? >> well, my concern would be at the moment or at the point where he's confronted. either by law enforcement or by someone from the general public. when i say he i'm referring to really richard matt. he's the one that just has such an extreme violent tendency. his -- he would engage in violent behavior not even as a reaction to being confronted but he would engage in it because that's what he likes, that's what he's comfortable with. and the response would very likely be immediate. and my concern as an investigator would also be that if he were to have taken hostages he would not bond with the hostages. so it's very difficult as a hostage negotiator to negotiate with someone who would use his hostages as objects. they are notoriously difficult to negotiate with. so those would be some of the conc

. >> mary ellen, this is another piece of information we are getting today, he thought about not shootinge. and then he apparently changed his mind. have you seen that in your career as a profiler that there are people who commit violent acts who did second-guess themselves? >> well, certainly offenders can second-guess themselves, but what i think is so unique in this case, it became part of his confession where he tells investigators that he did that and it really is very stunning because what that tells us is that, yes, i spent an hour with these people, he probably prayed with them, he maybe held their hands. yet, he was still cold-blooded enough to say, yeah, okay, but i'm still going to go ahead and kill them. i think that is very profound when it comes to realizing just how cold-blooded and callus his behavior is. >> i think that is what has a lot of people what is so raw about this. because if you sit with somebody for an hour, they are not a statistic to you any more. you know them on some level. let's listen here to somebody who knows him quite well, one of his friends. let's li

mary ellen o'toole. fascinating stuff. civil right activist naacp officer say their daughter has been lying abut her race. she says she is black. they say she is white and so is she. the controversy that erupted full of grays. what does the naacp have to say about it? we'll talk about that ahead. ate to severe plaque psoriasis most of my life. but that hasn't stopped me from modeling. my doctor told me about stelara® it helps keep my skin clearer. with only 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses... ...stelara® helps me be in season. stelara® may lower your ability to fight infections and increase your risk of infections. some serious infections require hospitalization. before starting stelara® your doctor should test for tuberculosis. stelara® may increase your risk of cancer. always tell your doctor if you have any sign of infection have had cancer, or if you develop any new skin growths. do not take stelara® if you are allergic to stelara® or any of its ingredients. alert your doctor of new or worsening problems including

. >> former fbi profiler mary ellen o'toole said inmates can be like predators on the lookout for vulnerable, who are often women who work in the prison. >> it starts small, asking for her to bring in a candy bar or a stamp. there's wording that goes along with something like this, only if i had met a woman like you 20 years ago i'd never be in this situation. she would be gullible in believing that. that's something we refer to in the fbi as magical thinking. >> reporter: joyce mitchell told investigators richard matt made her feel special. other reports say she thought it could have been love. but was she in so deep she was willing to risk everything for it? >> i don't know why anybody's surprised. i think that all americans know, crazy, lonely, low self esteem women, woman tried to marry charles manson, the menendez brothers, a woman married the hillside strangler who murdered 17 plus women in l.a. and tortured them with coat hangers. it never seems to amaze me how women are seduced by these guys. >> reporter: mitchell wasn't just risking her marriage. she was risking her freedom. all the

mary ellen o'toole. thank you very much. >> you're welcome. >> kelly?an pharoah getting ready to run for the triple crown. wow. he will take on seven rivals in the belmont stakes this evening. our live report coming up. >>> and we're going to take a look at a cell phone video. can you see it? it's a police officer in texas. smashing the window of a car. we're going to tell you why. >> the same thing -- i need you to stand down and give your -- >> open your window now! or i'm going to bust it out. i am his sunshine. i am his advocate. so i asked about adding once-daily namenda xr to his current treatment for moderate to severe alzheimer's. it works differently. when added to another alzheimer's treatment, it may improve overall function and cognition. and may slow the worsening of symptoms for a while. vo: namenda xr doesn't change how the disease progresses. it shouldn't be taken by anyone allergic to memantine, or who's had a bad reaction to namenda xr or its ingredients. before starting treatment, tell their doctor if they have or ever had, a seizure

profiler mary ellen o'toole who appeared on cbs's face the nation says the thoughts it contains likelyck to the author's childhood. >> you develop your coping behaviors, you develop your outlook on life, you develop anal attitude towards violence. and all of that evolves to the point where the world is a bad place to live. the world is filled with enemies, you hate people. >> reporter: according to the manifesto, the trayvon martin case was a moment of transformation. roof's apparent searches for information lead to extremist web sites and a conclusion that zimmerman was in the right. the reference to their son angered martin's parents. in a statement today sabrina fulton and tracy martin says it is very unfortunate that an individual with such a vile minddu and clear criminal intent would dare seek to undermine our mission of peace in an attempt to destroy the legacy of our son. there will be more difficult days ahead for the family members of the victims. tywanza sanders was shot and killed in the church, feet away from his mother, felicia. family friend and local attorney andy savag

mary ellen trainer has died. she appeared in lethal weapon and the goonnys.he was also in back to the future. she was married to a director. they divorced in 2000. she passed away in her home. she was 62 years old. your property taxes will not go up as high as first thought in prince george county. they vetoed a 1.5 increase. they say the tax was not necessary. last year the hikes were for parks and education. >> the u.s. women's national soccer team is celebrating a big win in their first appearance of the world cup. what a game. the team was a little timid in the first few minutes. that changed after this goal in minute. she went onto score again in the second half. the u.s. beat australia. they play women again friday night. go usa. we know these women are tough but they have to be extra tough this time around. they're playing on artificial turf and not grass. members of the team and other global soccer teams pled to change that. they say they're more likely to be injured on turf and they say the turf forces them to second guess when they can slide or go f

let's bring in former senior fbi profiler and special agent mary ellen o'tool.told investigators there were prisoners using heroin. how difficult would it be to operate a drug ring in a place like clinton? and does this happen more than we realize? >> we've already gotten the picture that the culture there, at least in the honors part of the prison seems to be very lax. so that culture may be very systemic and be present in all areas of that prison. i've been in a lot of prisons throughout the united states to conduct interviews and i could not say at all that this is typical of most institutions. >>> let's talk about sweat. as you know he's been talking to investigators shortly after he was captured. i wonder what is his incentive given the fact he's likely to spend the rest of his life behind bars and part of that time in solitary confinement. >> here's the thing that is really important. he is a different kind of offender. for david, who i believe manifests traits of psychopathy, it is enough for him to be able to talk about how smart he was, to talk about ho

. >> you mary ellen o'toole former fbi profiler and consultant. thank you very much. we appreciate it. >> you're very welcome. >> president obama has suffered a major legislative set back in one of his priorities. >> hethree out of every house democrats rebuffed president obama. but it's not dead yet. libby casey joins us with more on this. >> david, democrats soundly rejected the president's push to support his major goals. that's despite his trip to capitol hill this morning. it's not a far distance between the white house and capitol hill but you wouldn't know it because the president rarely makes that journey. he made an appearance last night at the baseball game where he tried to rub some elbows and get people on his side. democrats instead pushed back. they have concerns about the president's goal of getting fast-track authority on trade issues. democrats say that they're concerned about workers rights. they're concerned about human rights and the environment. now, in order to push down this fast track authority democrats had to take a tough vote today on someth

. >> mary ellen, we now believe -- okay she has a relationship with sweat, and he was moved out of the tailor shop. then it seems a relationship with matt that went on for apparently quite some time. goes back several years at least. as you've learned more about her, what do you make of what was going on inside the prison? >> the one thing that's very striking to me when we do assessments of individuals for their possible involvement in whatever the criminal activity is she was able to maintain a pattern of deceptive behavior for as much as two years. she was deceptive not only to her employer but she was deceptive to her family as well. she was able to go along with this and keep it quiet. at least up until the end. that's the part that i think is to me causes me to think that at this point, she's probably continuing to some extent being deceptive. the second thing i would say is that as much as they probably hated to depend on her, these were two guys that really had burned all their inter personal relationships before. there would be very few people that would want to help them and

former fbi profiler mary ellen o'toole.ith the capture of sweat alive and that's a good thing, how will officials delve into his deranged mind to get answers on not how they escaped but who else helped them. >> actually his mind is not deranged. he probably has a very severe personality discord known as psychoopathy and psychopaths have 20 interest rates and characteristics and one of them is they tend to be glib and charming grandos and some use the term narcissistic and it's that grandiosity that will cause him to talk a lot and to really want to explain what he's done and how he was so successful and how he was able to carry that out. so if they -- if they structure the interview correctly, they will get him to talk. >> it's interesting because when we talk about him as a psychopath as you put it that is a medical term and it's interesting when you go into the mind of a psychopath you wonder if he's going to cooperate with the police because he's done nothing but cooperate with the authorities and will be put in solitary

as to why she would want to have anything to do with two guys as ruthless as matt and sweat, mary ellenw. there is a lot we do not know about the nature of the relationship, if you can call it a relationship, between joyce mitchell and either of these men who are now on the run. in other cases, why do women, in cases like this, risk everything to help somebody behind bars? to help somebody who, you know, has a history of committing murder? >> sure. it is really an important question. i think first of all, it is very important to point out that in these kinds of cases, cases in the past that we've seen. the woman is specifically targeted by the individual who is really quite predatory, and predatory behavior is consistent with someone who is a psycho path. in this case, i think of the two, richard matt would actually be more psycho pathic than his partner david sweat. psycho paths are very manipulative and he would have been able to exploit her. but it would have taken time. and over time, he would have engaged in almost a grooming process where he breaks down her defenses. he makes her

mary ellen o'toole, we'll be looking for more evidence coming out.you so much. >> you're welcome. >>> coming up next, a lawmaker says absolutely no deal with iran with regard to nuclear negotiations if american hostages are not brought home. he'll join me live from capitol hill. also breaking now, rescue crews are cutting a hole in the capsized crew ship as the clock is ticking. we'll talk to a rescue diver about what they will find. when i started at the shelter, no one wanted benny. so i adopted him. he's older so he needs my help all day. when my back pain flared up i was afraid i would have to give him away. i took tylenol at first but i had to take 6 pills to get through the day. then my friend said, "try aleve." just 2 pills, all day. and now, i'm back for my best bud! aleve. all day strong. and try aleve pm now with an easy open cap. thanks for calling angie's list. how may i help you? i heard i could call angie's list if i needed work done around my house at a fair price. you heard right, just tell us what you need done and we'll find a top r

appreciate you being on, mary ellen. lenny depaul. robert fernandez.ad i'll talk to john walsh, what he believes it takes to catch fugitives. sweat and matt. and plus the dogs crucial to the search. how sensitive are their noses? what factors, help or hinder their ability to track down guys like this? you just heard from the district attorney in the region, as he said, last heard that the dogs are on the scent. gary tuchman takes up close. i don't want to live with the uncertainties of hep c. or wonder... ...whether i should seek treatment. i am ready. because today there's harvoni. a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. harvoni is proven to cure up to 99% of patients... ...who've had no prior treatment. it's the one and only cure that's... ...one pill, once a day for 12 weeks. certain patients... ...can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. with harvoni there's no interferon and there are no complex regimens. tell your doctor if you have other liver or kidney problems or other medical conditions. and about all the

appreciate you being on mary ellen. lenny depaul. robert fernandez.ad i'll talk to john walsh, what he believes it takes to catch fugitives. sweat and matt. and plus the dogs crucial to the search. how sensitive are their noses? what factors, help or hinder their ability to track down guys like this? you just heard from the district attorney in the region as he said last heard that the dogs are on the scent. gary tuchman takes up close. be a morning person again with aleve pm. when a moment spontaneously turns romantic why pause to take a pill? and why stop what you're doing to find a bathroom? with cialis for daily use, you don't have to plan around either. it's the only daily tablet approved to treat erectile dysfunction so you can be ready anytime the moment is right. plus cialis treats the frustrating urinary symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently, day or night. tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. do not take cialis if you take nitrates for chest pain as it may

. >> mary ellen o'toole joins us by phone. a special agent with the fbi. again, one of them shot and killed. the other one still at large apparently, but just talking about what the mind-set of these guys is right now, or as one guy left would be at this point being surrounded by law enforcement, what can he do at this point? what do you think he is doing right now? >> well i think at this point sweat is aware, i mean clearly he's aware that he's getting boxed into a corner. and of the two, it was my assessment that matt would have been the one who was far more psychopathic and that without him now sweat's in a much different situation and he's physical compromised. they've been out for a long time. he's got all the problems of having been on the run for all these, you know number of days. so my sense at this point is that he's not going to walk out and put his hands up either. it's going to be suicide or suicide by cop similar to what happened to matt. and -- but i do think that matt was really the stlentrength of the two. i wouldn't be surprised if sweat

mary ellen trainor. >> yes, in lethal weapon. >> well, she has died. died of complications from pancreatic cancer according to vulture. she died in may. news of her death is just being a announced publicly she was 62. >> i noticed the cast, got together over last 48 hours to celebrate 30th anniversary of that movie. corry feldman was on some tv shows yesterday. >> all right. that is too bad. >> 8:25. >>> a prosecutor in the charles manson trial has died. vincent bugliosi went on to write a book helter-skelter which told the story about the manson family and murder of sharon tait and six others as a matter of fact. he struggled with cancer. he died saturday night in a hospital in los angeles. he was 80 years of age. he was quite often, want on national television, talking about different murder cases. >>> well, lets talk about caitlin jenner facing more legal troubles from that deadly crash in malibu earlier this year. >> hollywood agent driving one of the two cars jenner hit is now suing, caitlin, the agent claims that she suffered serious medical inju

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i hired mary not because she is a woman, but because she is the best in the world at what she does, as in dr. beth seidenberg. -- as is dr. beth seidenberg. john, ellen is someone you personally brought into the firm. you were her mentor. how to chief -- how did you feel when you found out she was suing you? john doerr: i was sick. it was painful. she was a good chief of staff, but when i read the charges, i knew from that very moment that these had no merit. emily: hello where were you of the situation? -- how aware were you of the situation? john doerr: i'd rather not get into the past. ellen did some good things, and i wish her well, and to read it. emily: now she's the ceo of reddit. she is making bold moves. important tot is look at the difference between being an operator and an investor. i think ellen can be a great ceo, i hope that she is, but to be a successful investing partner is a different job. emily: have you talked to her? john doerr: only briefly in the trial. i said, "hi ellen. how's your family? how are you doing?" ok.said that's it. i haven't spoken with her since. emily: why did you not try to settle? john doerr: i always thought