. >> let's discuss all of this with donald trump's former personal attorney michael cohen who has been listening in to all of these developments. michael, great to see you. your reaction to what you've heard? >> there's nothing that has been said that i couldn't have scripted out in advance of the trump organization's counsel, whether it was alan or the other attorney. he's been saying this witch hunt language since he took office. no one is allowed to investigate donald unless donald tells you he's allowed to be investigated. everybody needs to read through the indictment instead of skimming through it. what you're going to find is the that alan weisselberg is in substantially greater jeopardy than he was last night. i've seen this before and i want to say it to you as well. there's a big difference between when you're under investigation and when you're under indictment. the next step for alan weisselberg and possibly his children is prison. we already saw the numbers by your group before of seven years for each of the 15 counts. that's 105 years. nobody believes that he's going to g

. >> we have a witness here, michael cohen, he joins us on our first block. as he stands by, i will bring in dan alonso and joy vance, welcome to both of you. how broad and strong is this case? >> it sounds very strong. the evidence detailed in me charges themselves. they don't seem to rely too much on people whose credibility can be attacked. it does not seem michael cohen or others and they got a lot of a lot of documents, i think it is broader than what we were expecting the last few days from having heard from the defense lawyers and i will say one thing that is very significant that this state tax case charges the irs and the federal authorities as victims in this scheme. that's proper, for example, social security and disability and things like that. this is a very interesting and appropriate use of the scheme of fraud and grand larceny laws to specifically charge in state court that the irs is ripped off. it is an interesting way to do it. it has the effect of upping significantly the am of tax laws. we are talking about new york state's taxes, we talk

- going to require people close to him in addition to michael cohen to - in addition to michael that is what is - testify if that is what is ultimately— testify if that is what is ultimately in _ testify if that is what is ultimately in the - testify if that is what isi ultimately in the sights testify if that is what is i ultimately in the sights of testify if that is what is - ultimately in the sights of these prosecutors _ ultimately in the sights of these prosecutors— ultimately in the sights of these prosecutors. when you put it all to . ether prosecutors. when you put it all together with — prosecutors. when you put it all together with the _ prosecutors. when you put it all together with the fact _ prosecutors. when you put it all together with the fact that - prosecutors. when you put it all together with the fact that the l together with the fact that the district attorney had gone to the spring court to get tax records and has been invested in this for years can be can forgive some people for saying is this it? is this all you've got or do you see this as merely an ope

>> i think michael cohen is absolutely right.oking for something bigger than just. this once we left and people don't talk about in the discord, these charges are against the trump organization where donald trump run as the president, brandon and his name. they are not minor charges. they allege about 1 million dollars in taxes not being. paid it's like 1 million dollar highs. the justice department does do a 15-minute google surged. you will see the justice department puts people in jail for five years for that. it's mine, or in something that's being used as leverage probably, to try and get allen weisselberg to flip. it should go without saying, today it, donald trump's business was labeled a criminal organization, essentially. >> want to pivot to the supreme court today, the decision upholding voting restrictions in arizona. it came down along party lines, i know it's just -- undignified to use party lines one referring to the supreme court, but we all seen the confirmation hearings and people are not stupid, and know the sco

there were charges to congress and in the case of michael cohen hush money. will the president, will the former president actually finally have his nine lives and his ability to skirt the criminal consequences so many others around him have faced? the former president is out today calling it a witch-hunt, that this is politically motivated. in reading this indictment again as someone who is not a lawyer, like you, nicolle, i was struck by the fact that over and over again what you saw was defraud. this document shows that you lied over and over and over again allegedly and had all to do with money and taxes and how the business was run. >> everyone's analysis -- go ahead. >> it's a long, interesting indictment. at its core is the allegation donald trump is at the helm of a criminal enterprise. that's what's new today. that's why the new york d.a. did the research, did the investigation and indicted. and the organization will have its day in court to rebut that. this is not nothing that a recently departed former president who touts his business acumen above a

>> i think that michael cohen is absolutely right. the prosecutors here are looking for something bigger than this. what people don't talk about, these charges are against the trump organization, which donald trump ran as president, branded with his name, and they are not minor charges. they allege about a million dollars in taxes not being paid. it's like a million dollar heist, and the justice department does a five minute google search, and you will see the justice department puts people in jail for five years for tax evasion like that. this isn't minor. it's something that is probably used as leverage to try to get allen weisselberg to flip. it guys without saying, donald trump's business was labelled a criminal organization, essentially. >> i want to pivot to the supreme court today. this decision upholding voting restrictions in arizona. came down along party lines and i know it's considered gross and undignified to use the term party lines when we talk about the supreme court. and everybody knows the score on the court. here is

we have michael cohen, paul manafort, roger stone, michael flynn, steve bannon, on down the line, and you add allen weisselberg to that list. it is really remarkable to see how many people around donald trump have taken falls, yet he has not yet. >> i mean, abby, that's why people think donald trump has been teflon, he has been able to insulate himself. how closely do you think that people on capitol hill are watching what is going on right now in this courtroom in new york? >> you know, first of all i think on the democratic side there's been a longstanding interest in trump's tax returns, in understanding where his money is coming from, who he owes debts to. democrats are particularly interested in that. on the republican side though, i do have to wonder, alisyn, how many of them really care about any of this. i think they have really turned a blind eye to all of the controversy surrounding trump including anything that has to do with his businesses. i have a lot of questions about whether most, you know, die-hard republicans, which in the house is probably more than two-thirds of t

and why michael cohen is still the only person who ever faced the music for those felonies. even though federal prosecutors identified other people having played bigger, more important roles in those felonies than he did. but that was it. apparently in terms of any legal case. maybe someday we will figure it would happened. but tonight, washington post was forced to report, that a grand jury in manhattan has filed criminal indictments against the trump organization, and it's cfo, allen weisselberg, and those indictments will be unsealed tomorrow. these are not -- these are state charges under newark. law the post is reporting that mr. weisselberg is expected to surrender tomorrow morning at the manhattan district attorney 's office and he's expected to be arraigned later in the day before a state judged in a new york courtroom. the trump organization will also be arranged -- it is hard to arraign and entity. at least it is hard to imagine that. but the entity will be represented in court by one of its attorneys. an entity familiar with the matter telling nbc news tonight tha

joining us is michael cohen, author of "disloyal." michael, let's start there. the handcuffs don't really feel great on your wrists. second of all, it's very surreal when you are being perp walked to the judge's chambers in order to hear charges that are going to be brought against you. i've often said that, you know, there's a big difference between when you're under investigation and then you're formally indicted as what i went through and what allen weisselberg is going through because the stakes are now real. before they're not real. you sit there, you walk around, you go out with your family and you wonder what they're going to come up with. now you know what they're coming up with and you know that this is just the tip of the iceberg. nobody -- nobody should realistically believe for a second that the indictment that came down today is the end after be all. it is not. the district attorney, cyrus vance and others have substantially more documents and more indictments will be coming as a result. >> i want to get into that more in a second. i wanted to get y

that criminal scheme, of course, completely fell apart, michael cohen went to prison for that criminal scheme, stormy daniels went on 60 minutes and told the story of that night including donald trump comparing her to his daughter. today, another criminal scheme involving donald trump signing checks was described in the indictment of the trump corporation, the trump it will corporation and allen why so burke. from 2012 through 2017 then as part of the scheme to -- including weisselberg arranged for tuition expenses for weisselberg's family members to be paid by personal checks drawn on the account of, and signed by donald j. trump. the payment of tuition for weisselberg's family members couldn't -- i was treated as part of his annual compensation in the internal records maintained by the corporation. however, the indirect compensation in the form of tuition payments was not included on a weisselberg's two forms reported to tax authorities. no income taxes were withheld. weisselberg intentionally caused a tuition payments to be omitted from his personal tax returns despite knowing that

michael cohen remains the only person who went to prison for that scheme. even though he didn't benefit from those payments. donald trump did. that said, federal prosecutors quite famously in court documents that he committed those felonies in coordination with and at the direction of individual-1, who was donald trump. it was of course the person who was also the beneficiary of the actions described in those felony counts. and then that raised all sorts of actually still outstanding questions as to why federal prosecutors from the southern district of new york would ascribe that kind of blame to an individual who directed the commission of those felonies who actually benefitted from the commission of those felonies. but then they closed the case without ever bringing charges against that individual. it is one thing to think that individual-1, president trump, was safe from indictment himself there because he was president at the time and the justice department won't indict a sitting president. but he's no longer president. nevertheless, that sdny case was

if you remember, michael cohen, was saying i'll take a bullet for donald trump, then he sees more than 10 years in of jail time and he became a witness against trump. so until we see what weisselberg is facing, that could change the course. but we'll see the district attorney coming out and saying how they view the indictments, just the end or the beginning? >> also the michael cohen example is a very good one because like allen weisselberg he had extreme closeness to president trump and testified on capitol hill as to how the president communicated often saying nothing but enough to get them to do something that might have been inappropriate. what makes allen weisselberg different? >> the difference here is that allen weisselberg basically has been in operational control of the trump organization for decades. he was the cfo but in practice was a little bit more than that. he controls every dollar that comes in and out of the country, makes questions about who's hired and fired. in one deposition he said he made sure the right subsidiaries were buying the right pens to save money on of

michael cohen went to prison for that criminal scheme. stormy daniels went on "60 minutes" and told the story of that night, including donald trump comparing her to his daughter. today, another, criminal scheme involving donald trump signing checks was described in the indictment of the trump corporation, the trump payroll corporation, and allen weisselberg. from 2012 through 2017, and as part of the scheme to defraud, trump corporation personnel, including weisselberg, arranged for tuition expenses for weisselberg's family members to be paid by personal checks drawn on the account of and signed by donald j. trump. the payment of tuition expenses for weisselberg's family members constituted employee compensation and taxable income to allen weisselberg, and was treated as part of weisselberg's annual compensation in the internal records maintained by the trp corporation. however, the indirect compensation in the form of tuition payments was not included on weisselberg's w-2 forms or otherwise reported to federal, state, or local-tax author

michael cohen, trump's former fixer and attorney, says he secretly recorded a conversation with trumpg about payments to one of the women. the recordings were released in 2018. and on them, cohen mentions allen weisselberg. which would mean weisselberg was in the know about the shell company, allegedly, set up to make the payment. >> i have spoken to allen weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up with funding. >> reporter: cohen has said, both, trump and weisselberg had knowledge of the hush-money payments. he testified about this before the house oversight committee in 2019. >> other checks to reimburse me for the hush-money payments were signed by donald trump jr. and allen weisselberg. >> reporter: throughout his testimony, he mentions weisselberg many, many times. >> the bottom signature, i believe, is allen weisselberg's. i was asked, again, with allen weisselberg. i was instructed by allen. in the office, with me, was allen weisselberg. >> cohen pleaded guilty to tax evasion and violating federal campaign finance law, among other things. and was sentenced to three years t

television although, michael cohen's best burns these days are reserved for rudy giuliani's son, andrew>> and then there's andrew giuliani. andrew makes erik look like a valedictorian of harvard [ laughter ] so - right, i mean, you know, i think if i'm not mistaken, you know, andrew even failed trump university that's to give you an idea of just how stupid he is. >> seth: can't believe i'm saying it, but i think prison was great for michael cohen. came out with a new attitude and a quiver full of zingers got rid of that baby blue jacket but hannity's not the only one who seems to be stuck in a time loop yesterday, the house gop's new pro-trump conference chair elise stefanik, who replaced liz cheney after cheney committed the grave sin of saying the election was not stolen, took to the floor to praise trump's economic record but see if you can catch what she left out it's so small you might miss it. >> americans across this country are facing crisis after crisis just think in just over a year ago in early 2020, our economy was booming, our standing in the world was strong, we had just r

initially michael cohen had not flipped.d on him, he had been charged and then he ended up striking a deal for testimony in exchange for leniency. clearly, that's the number one fear, i would imagine, for donald trump. or for people in his orbit. >> that's right. michael cohen, as you said, he had a huge amount of other liabilities. he had a whole -- that was part of what caused him to flip. when he saw that he might spend ten years in prison he, testified against trump. what we will see tomorrow what kind of the sentence is facing weisselberg. is he talking about some kind of offense where he gets off with a fine? or is he looking at something that could be years and years in prison? weisselberg is 70. will he feel the pressure that michael cohen felt. as we said yes, really hard to evaluate this case until we know what's going to happen with weisselberg. and we will see what he's facing tomorrow. >>we will see wh they arraignme- again it's sort of a strange to encounter the legal fiction or entity of the corporation and it

. >>> in our politics lead, trump's former fixer michael cohen thinks there is more to come after new york city prosecutors charge the trump organization's chief financial officer with 15 felonies. >> allen weisselberg is not the keystone. he is not the keystone to this investigation. >> joining us now is cnn's cara spinel was in the courtroom today. he got away with this for 15 years? >> that's right. 15 years from what prosecutors call an audacious and sweeping illegal payment scheme. weisselberg was charged with 15 felony counts. the trump organization were charged with 10 tellfelony coun. weisselberg was led into the courtroom in handcuffs. he pleaded not guilty. a lawyer for the trump organization also pleaded not guilty to the charges. as part of the scheme, it's alleged that over these 15 years since 2005 that weisselberg and the trump organization helped to seal some payments. the focus has been on benefits. saying that weisselberg had defrauded new york city state authorities by concealing that he lived in new york city at the same time that he was living in a trump funded ap

it's not the same as michael cohen. aying whether michael is right or wrong, whether he was treated well, what i'm saying is people path to understand this is the person who was there at the founding. and it's not as if he's going to therefore have something waiting for him afterwards, after he testifies. why is allen going to do a 76 years old? >> you're saying that there's a lot of sourcing that theory of the case is, there is enough stuff that they might hit trump, but they would need an insider as is so often the case with enterprises like this, to provide the testimony. and that's why they're putting heat on weisselberg? that if they got father it would be based on weisselberg. and your say if that's the theory of the case, 90% chance it's a dead end? onlyworks. because you think weisselberg is right or die? >> yes. yes. even at his age, even with the exposure his kids could possibly have. there's a story that went around the office. when donald was about to do his taxes, the actual boardroom on donna's floor, you w

when you have michael cohen on, michael left trump organization after donald went to the white house. people who have testified against donald and cooperated, people even at trumporing. they're not like allen. he was there at the inception of trump organization. allen worked for donald's father. and then at night, he used to work for donald. then eventually when the trump org expanded into manhattan, allen was there. i would say he was the second most powerful person in trump org. that means he's more powerful thanivanka when she worked there. he had his hands on the purse strings. he had his hands on the money. for donald to trust someone with the money, that will be a most powerful person in the organization. and let's think about what happens. if cy vance thought something like that, that he didn't declare the income, you can look at it. we don't have to get into the tax debate. if you thought allen would testify against donald and give out all the secrets, he's crazy. what would be left for allen afterwards? allen, i know we're talking about ten years. i don't believe he would get

this is what happens in a life with donald trump, as michael cohen can tell everybody who still works. >> that's the really confusing thing about it. and, so, i think there is a lot we still don't know. so jonathan is right to sort of have our expectations at sort of a measured level and that we will see the details tomorrow. but i think, to your point, allen weisselberg has been there for 50 years. and, so, he knows everything. so it's clear that if they had evidence against him, which it appears they do, they would use that to get him to flip, but maybe he's like, look, i've been -- i'm safe. donald trump has my back. he's had it this whole time. i would like to introduce him to michael cohen and others who have gone to prison protecting donald trump and who now say that that was a mistake. and, so, i think, you know, he's -- i hope allen weisselberg is sleeping okay tonight. it is a good thing we don't have to wake up to a tweet. i thought about that and i was at least relieved about that. >> thank you very much for joining us on our final segment of speculation about what might be

it's not the same as michael cohen.as right or on wrong or treated well on or whether he should be going to the white house. what i say is people have to understand this is the person who was there at the founding and it's not as if he is to therefore have something waiting for him afterwards after he testifies. what is he going to do at 76 years old. >> you are saying, yeah, you are saying that there's a lot of sourcing that the theory on of the case is, there's enough stuff that might hit trump but they would need an insider as is so often the case with this. and you are saying if that's the theory of the case. 90% chance it's a dead end only 10% it works you think weisselberg is ride or die and will do a bid. >> yes. yes. even at his age. even with his exposure his kids could possibly have. there was a story that went around the office, when donald was about to do his taxes there was, the boardroom on donald's floor, the boardroom on the 26th floor. he would go down. allen's office was right there. allen would sit th

in the way that michael cohen testified in his own case that donald trump ordered him to commit those campaign finance crimes. >> exactly right. you need someone who was in the room that said, donald trump ordered this to happen. donald trump of prove this. it was donald trump's decision. without that evidence, you can't have criminal culpability. i think we also have to remember that, in all likelihood, this is the first stage. the first round of what will be when the grand jury sits for the four, four and a half months, it's the prosecutors -- clearly are bringing a first round of charges against the trump organization. we don't know if it's the trump organization at the parent level or subsidiary level. unknown until tomorrow. but they're bring in this first round of charges. from what i've been hearing, it sounds like this is not the end. this indictment is a first round. and the investigation is continuing. presumably will be looking at things like bank fraud, insurance fraud, falsification of books and records. perhaps the stormy daniels payment. there's a lot i think for them s

michael cohen testified under oath about hush money payments and real estate evaluation practices.k fraud, insurance fraud, and other bigger crimes that are here. prosecutors aren't just going to turn away from that. that's why michael cohen is down there cooperating, if weisel berg flips, it may spell trouble for the rest of the trump family, moreover, there are bigger crimes they are looking at. i was a prosecutor, you get this all the time, you are doing it for this or that reason. maybe they are, i don't know. nevertheless, that's not a defense under the law. you can go into court and say, judge come i want this case dismissed because they are democrats and i'm a republican, or they've never done this way before, that never works, shannon. >> shannon: a quick 15 seconds, would this be charged if it wasn't connected to the trump organization? >> no, i've never seen this charges ever brought against another company before. i don't want to say is unprecedented, but it's extraordinarily rare. these charges were brought for one reason, and it's because of the trump name. >> shannon:

he can give up lower people to help himself out but so far we have not seen or except michael cohen.ybody decide blatantly to tell the truth. >> whether he's an unindicted coke conspirator, we are still looking at. >>> up ahead, something we are so excited about. fran liebowitz on trump and her evolving views of journalism in america. fran is next. in america. fran is next debt. then i discovered sofi. lower interest rate. my principal is going down. sofi is a place where you can start to tackle those money goals today. ♪♪ like many people with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease, i was there. be right back. but my symptoms were keeping me from where i needed to be. so i talked to my doctor and learned humira is the #1 prescribed biologic for people with uc or crohn's disease. and humira helps people achieve remission that can last, so you can experience few or no symptoms. humira can lower your ability to fight infections. serious and sometimes fatal infections, including tuberculosis, and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened, as have blood, liver, and ner

nobody would ever build a case just on the word of michael cohen.'m sure no companies have ever done that before, inflate ad property, inflate ad property for tax purposes and inflated it for purposes of getting a loan. look, i make no comment on the indictment in terms whether or not there is going to be a conviction, no matter how small potatoes an indictment it is, it describes what is a crime if it can be proven. taking perks, hiding income in the form of perks. it is just, it is just not the kind of thing that would typically be investigated or prosecuted. i don't think there is any question that he was targeted here and it is really quite unprecedented to have both a d.a. and a attorney general announce publicly, we are investigating former president trump. that is unprecedented. that is very, very political and it is very unfortunate. and my understanding is the attorney general campaigned on going after trump criminally. that is just the kind of stuff they complained about trump on when he was president, wanting all of his enemies charged. i

he doesn't have the role of the con ciliary that michael cohen was. donald trump is famous for not wanting to pay his bills, and if you charged him $100, he'd say you only did $75 worth of work, and that was weisselberg's job. he was the guy who said pay him $75, tell him to take it or leave it. that's all we're going to do. so he was looking at the bottom line for donald trump. he knew what donald trump wanted to do. he knew what he wanted to pay. and what he didn't want to pay because he listened to him. and that's how that relationship worked. i don't think they're particularly personally close as in going out to dinner together all the time. but i do think it's a long-standing relationship. and weisselberg has a certain sense of loyalty to donald trump. we'll see where that takes him after he take a look at these indictments. >> a spokesperson for the trump organization released a statement in response to all this saying in part, quote, the district attorney is bringing a criminal prosecution involving employee benefits that neither the irsnor any

will he felt the pressure michael cohen felt?w what's going to happen with weisselberg. it's hard to know what's going to happen with him until you see what he is facing tomorrow. >> the arraignment -- again, it's a strange encounter. the legal fiction or legal entity of the corporation and its arraignment. the corporation cannot march into court. it highlights how relatively rare criminal charges are against a business enterprise or corporation. what do we know about channel of charges? >> as you said, the trump organization will be represented by a lawyer who will probably enter a not guilty plea. it will be interesting to see what they charge. the trump organization has more than 500 llcs. it's created to be this opaque nest of llcs that own pieces of each other reporting back up to trump. i will be interested to see which they charge. you could -- they are not common but when they happen, they often end in fines for the companies that have been charged. there's also collateral damage or there could be if it makes banks, lende

michael cohen has said that several times, but it will be connecting the dots on whether they can provedirected any of this. but let's move on to the january 6th select committee. so, do we know if leader kevin mccarthy is going to name republicans to be on this select committee? i mean, beyond liz cheney, who nancy pelosi named, do we know what kevin mccarthy's plan is? >> no. not yet. tbd. and one of the interesting things about the answer to that question is that there are a lot of different calculations that kevin mccarthy is going through right now. first and foremost is, you know, is the jim jordans of the world, put the biggest and loudest flame throwers and trump loyalists on this panel just to completely gum up the works. and/or not put anybody on at all, because the moderates, those who, you know, most of those who either impeached -- voted to impeach the president or even voted for the commission, remember, 35 republicans voted for this independent commission, which didn't happen because the senate republicans blocked it. most of them voted no on this select committee, and th

he is obviously the big boss as michael cohen pointed out in that piece. but actual evidence against donald trump in the indictment is basically nonexistent. >> well, first, let's get smoking spreadsheet into the vernacular if we can. second to the point of how closely the former president might be tied to this, tim, i want to ask you about that. because you have this piece in bloomberg today really interesting and references the 2005 deposition stemming from an unsuccessful libel suit the president filed against you. what did trump say under oath about how closely he worked with weisselberg on the company finances? >> that they worked hand in glove, john. and that it wasn't trump merely signing off on documents that weisselberg prepared for him without any input from trump. these were documents they presented to banks and other entities they were seeking loans from that purported or presented an accurate snapshot of the company's valuations and finances. we deposed trump for two days in 2007, eight hours a day. it is 16 hours of sworn testimony, and it's

michael cohen had been outside the circle quite a while. there is reports that she's not especially close to her father lately and that she's using her help in the media to send forth this notion that she's estranged and embarrassed by so much he's done. we have been through that before. we don't know what's going on with these investigations. i don't want to over-speculate or promise anything. if her dad is in trouble, she's in trouble. the boys are in trouble. it can't be comfortable. the family dynamic is succession-like. i am dying for next season and this is going of to do for a while. melissa, i have a list right here and all the people. we have don and ivanka and weisselberg and donald trump jr. and eric trump, all these people. >> if you look at this list right now, which of these people, we already know weisselberg, which of these people do you think may be the most concerned? >> maybe ivanka or don jr. give me reasons to be concerned or if they did more than sign a couple of charity checks. >> all of this depends on what comes out

people close to trump who have been charged and convicted from michael cohen, michael flynn. what do you make ambassador, bolton, of seeing a former american president surrounded by so many people on the charged and convicted list? >> well, the old saying goes you're really known by who you associate with and i think this is another significant, this barrack indictment is a significant problem for trump. look, it's perfectly legal to lobby for a foreign government. this town planted thick with lobbiests for foreign governments. the issue here is barrack didn't register for whatever reason and seems to pain to conceal it. i also think the bigger pattern which we've seen in other cases and people are familiar with the ukraine is trump himself using friends and acquaintances to go outside of normal channels and as we've seen with the difficulties of both rudy giuliani and now tom barrack, this can have painful consequences. >> so i want to ask you about that. in 2019, you were national security advisor and we reported that you cancelled a meeting at the time with a group that wa

michael cohen is think trump is linked to all of this inside the documents he seen.t do you say? >> he's not very credible, nobody would build a case just on the word of micro coming. i'm sure no company has ever done that before, inflating property for tax purposes and inflated for purposes of getting a loan. i make no commentlo upon the indictment in terms of whether or not there is going to be conviction no matter how small potatoes and indictment it is, it describes what is a crime if it can be proven. taking parks, hiding income in the form of perks, it is not the kind of things that were typically be investigated or prosecuted, i don't think there's any question he was targeted here and it quite unprecedented to have both the d.a. and attorney general are not publicly we are investigating former president trump. that is unprecedented, that's barry political and very unfortunate. my understanding is attorney general campaigned on going after trump, that is just what they complained about trump on when he wases president wanting his enemies charged so i don't for

because according to michael cohen, trump promised cohen he would support him throughout the whole processses went away. so using a metaphor, it's kill or be killed time. weisselberg has to decide. because if he doesn't cooperate and then trump is charged anyway, trump is certainly going to point the finger at weisselberg. >> what do you say to what the attorneys for the trump organization have contended, saying, look, this is about mistakes on weisselberg's personal tax returns, this is about politics, there are other firms that have done far worse. what do you say to that? >> pamela, when i listen to that, to me, those sounded a lot like admissions. i mean, if i were their lawyers, i would say stop talking, because you notice they're not denying that this stuff occurred. they're saying, this is just small ball, it's small potatoes. but, you know, i've never heard of a company perk of paying hundreds of thousands of dollars to tuition for a cfo's grandchildren. and if it was done, those companies would surely pay taxes on it. you can do whatever you want for fringe benefits but you have t

now, the former president, the former trump fixer and keeper of secrets i should say, michael cohen, who knows a thing or two about taking the fall saying this today. >> what you have right now is allen weisselberg's head on the chopping block. and do you think that donald trump will protect him? well, if allen looks back at what happened to me the answer an emphatic no. >> remember what he told congress about how his boss made his wishes known, how he made sure people knew what he wanted them to do? >> he doesn't give you questions. he doesn't give you orders. he speaks in a code. and i understand the code because i've been around him for a decade. >> so here's what you should know. the former president is not charged with anything right now, but his pride and joy, his company is. and his attitude about paying taxes is well-known. remember this? >> the only years that anybody's ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax. >> that makes me smart. >>

has had trump's tax returns and azars for months now and had michael cohen to speak with, a relative of weisselberg himself. is this enough at this point given what you you've seen and with your experience as a prosecutor, would you expect a d.a. to lead with his or her strength in effect, lead with the strongest charges or do you see this as a first step? >> that is the big question here. is this the first step or is this all there is? a lot of that will depend on whether they could shake loose allen weisselberg as a cooperating witness. because he could hold the keys to the kingdom here. if he cooperates, if there is enough pressure on him because of this indictment, then his mind may change. i know he's made clear he's not going to be cooperating thus far. if he doesn't though, jim, if this is all they have, it is not much. as a result of two years of this case, enormous resources, they fought up to the supreme court and i think it is safe to conclude that based on what they have so far, they do not believe they have enough with michael cohen, with the tax returns to indict anyone

tomorrow, chris pratt and michael cohen. music from the isley brothers and snoop dogg.lbum "ready to love," seventeen! ♪ ♪ ♪ can we stay together can we stay together ♪ ♪ we can't say forever we can't say forever ♪ [ singing in foreign language ] ♪ ♪ ♪ love is love everyone hey ♪ ♪ are you ready now ♪ ♪ get your hands up can we stay together can we stay together ♪ ♪ we can't stay forever we can't stay forever ♪ ♪ run away guess i'll run away ♪ [ singing in foreign language ] ♪ you give me purpose ♪ [ singing in foreign language ] ♪ ♪ ♪ all i want to do is run away ♪ ♪ ready to love me get my hands up ♪ ♪ can we stay together can we stay together ♪ ♪ what good is love for you we can't say forever we can't say forever ♪ ♪ run away come on so run away ♪ [ singing in foreign language ] ♪ you give me purpose ♪ [ singing in foreign language ] ♪ ♪ ♪ can we stay together can we stay together ♪ ♪ ♪ we can't say forever we can't say forever ♪ ♪ better run away yeah run away ♪ ♪ ♪ you give me purpose ♪ ♪ ♪ [ cheers and applause ] >>> right now at this defining moment in america, w

as michael cohen said when you feel the cold steel of the handcuffs and you're being charged, it's aing investigated. >> that is absolutely right. reality crystalizes once you've been charged it becomes very, very real. it's not just talking in the hypothetical where your attorneys are telling you, hey, they're investigating you. doesn't mean you've been charged yet. you've been charged. you've been presented in court. you had to plead not guilty. this is very real. and as you pointed out, they are significant charges here carrying significant potential jail time of 15 years. for a white collar crime, that's no joke. i think what happens next is that now the case goes into pretrial. the next conference will be in september. and his attorneys, weisselberg's attorneys, will try to find a way to dismiss the indictment. >> there's another thing, that is the trump organization is a going concern. as troubled as it is and as much as it has ventures that doesn't make money, it's a growing concern. donald trump has loans out there that he personally guaranteed. some of those loans are coming

f first, it was we love michael cohen. they stopped paying michael cohen's attorney fees.lberg's attorney fees. the case against him in fairness we haven't heard his side of the story but looks strong. he is going to be in a very difficult place and this push away from the trump organization may be a push unintentionally towards him. >> very quickly, jeffrey, a source calls this prudent corp brett governance. is there potentially any legal benefit here to this kind of maneuver? >> it is prudent not to have a chief financial officer who is under indictment. as cara pointed out, the regulatory bodies, whether liquor licenses or gambling licenses, they have certain requirements for the company that they agree to regulate. the problem is the trump incest ga -- incestvestigation is under indictment. yes, this is prudent but it may be too little, too late. >> thank you very, very much. we'll have more, more on the more news right after this. when you earn a degree with university of phoenix, we support you with career coaching for life, including personal branding, resume buildi

but this is not somebody like a michael cohen or paul manafort who was very much a public figure somebodysee on camera a lot. we didn't really have any video of him until our colleague caught up with him a month ago. so interesting to see him in person yesterday. interesting to see such a busy well, that is where the prosecutors and defense attorneys sit. you had members from the district attorney's office, you had the office of attorney general there and actual principles themselves of being cy vance and take latisha jams. so it was just a brief hearing yesterday. it was exactly as we would expect from an arraignment in manhattan court. so there was nothing that was kind of outside the thunderstorm except for it was the former president's best. so that is what with observed yesterday. think that it was more telling what we didn't hear in court and what we didn't see in documents. we didn't hear anything about bank fraud, insurance fraud. the millions and literally millions of pages of document documents that the district attorney's office was able to get as a result of their hard-fought

i think this is astounding given michael cohen's example.ther thing that i notice in the president's -- or former president's cliomplaints and his idea, well, they're going after really good people and they would only be going after me because of political motivations. well, the big problem for him is that he invited all of this. he ran for president in the first place as a publicity stunt. he wanted to amp up his visibility and increase his bottom line. he never intended to be elected president and then when he became president, journalists started digging into the facts of his wealth, which has always been in doubt, and then people that he really hurt, that he steamrollered offer the years leaked documents on "the new york times" that gave the truth about his taxes for the world to see. faced with all of that, the prosecutions had no choice but to go after him. the idea this is political is crazy. he brought it on himself. these are practices that have been going on for more than a dozen years and he's getting what he deserves. >> and what

. >> and michael cohen talked about millions of documents, having worked there as donald trump's lawyerthe grand jury. going through and looking from journalistic standpoint the way the trump organization operated, when michael cohen and others said that this is a way of underpaying people. relatively low salaries and compensating them with presents for them, their kids, house to live in. did you find that thing in the internals of the trump organization? particularly the stuff that mary trump provided? >> we didn't see so much that because we had tax return information. this is now what they didn't tell the tax man. but what it had the effect of doing is reducing the amount of taxable income the irs could go after. getting perks on the one side, and just the way they're being accounted for is not fully reflecting the taxable income. when i heard the remarks on saturday, i heard two things. joy talking about they're going to minimize this, oh, yeah, small ball. but other thing i heard which was very interesting and contours of the legal defense you're going to start to see them present,

friendly, have lunch, whatever, he wasn't a manafort or a michael cohen.imal back then. maybe he's evolved into that situation and maybe he's like got the loyalty thing kind of like a godfather thing going. from my point of view, loyalty is something you offer in terms of not working for someone else or keeping the company secrets. not covering up for a crook. >> yeah, you're seeing loyalty as a form of integrity. i think this is more about just power dynamics. he hasn't given him up yet which means one of two things, one, it wasn't worth his time to do so, or he doesn't have what prosecutors need to implicate the former president. i do know this right now, you understanding the inside and you understanding the dynamic of how these gifts were received and understood, very helpful. thank you very much, both. >> thank you. >>> all right. we'll keep following the facts as the facts are laid out to us. another situation that we already know painful facts about, the voting rights movement in this country is a problem. not every law, not everywhere, but what the

in 2019, michael cohen testified that wiseleberg never acted alone. >> it's led by sire russ vance, jr. a lawyer for . id he dt e f president being charged himself but that doesn't mean mr. trump is in the clear. >> this indictment looks to me like the culmination of a pressure campaign against allen wiseleberg. >> reporter: in a statement trump said his actions were standard practice and in no way a crime. >>> the new york and manhattan d.a.'s office have also been looking into the family business. >>> meantime, president trump took a tour of his unfinished wall at the texas border. he was joined by governor greg abbott. he said biden's policies have been disastrous. cbs reporters spent a few days visiting the border. we spoke to a reporter who was there. >> reporter: while we are here, we make sure to talk to people who live in the area to get their true perspective. a lot of people have been frustrated by this. one because they feel like they're living in these small towns and nobody's listening. people feel it's political theater. so today we were very cautious in approaching what

. >> suzanne, michael cohen, he was on the show last week.e talked about being millions of documents. being there, as trump's lawyer, he testified before the grand jury. i wonder, if going through and in a journalistic standpoint for you, michael cohen and others who worked for donald trump have said essentially, this was a wave underpaying people. paying them low salaries, essentially compensating them with presents, presence for the kids, a house to live in, those things. did you find that when looking at the internals of the trump organization particular the stuff that trump provided? >> we didn't see so much that. we had the tax return information, this is not what they actually told the tax man. it had the effect of reducing the amount of taxable income that the irs could go after. you are getting all these perks on the one side, and just the way they are being accounted for is not fully reflecting the taxable income. when i heard those remarks on saturday, i heard two things. one, when joy was talking about, they will try to minimize th

en that is, of course, an echo of or familiar with what michael cohen agd in his testimony. they would do a lot of this. . is there enough evidence, paper for a jury to be convinced this was a scheme rather than say a casual habit that wasn't intent to defraud. >> everyone stay with me. tom. >> ayman, there is a lot of interest and speculation in this indictment. there are references unindicted co-conspirator. the reason why there is speculation, just explain why we're here and why certain people made the leap to who it could be is that in the past, in a federal indictment, totally separate matter, related to michael cohen and payments to stormy daniels, it was a reference to individual one. but in this case, i want to be very clear here, it is our understanding that unindicted co-conspirator number one in this trump organization is not the former president of the united states donald trump. there is a lot of speculation in the world of social media and my e-mail that it could be the former president. it is not. i want to share that with you. secondly, we just received a cop

nothing on inflating wages as michael cohen testified to.possible? >> several people have said this is the first series of indictments. there's much more to come they think. also people are worried like this is all they have? they've been talking to michael cohen for a long time, prosecutors. now they're trying to get another person who has been on the inside for five decades. clearly the feeling is they want more to get this guy. i mean, he has been houdini. he beat impeachment twice. it's been very hard to get him. it's interesting that now he's not saying he didn't do this. he's saying, hey, it's not murder. >> yeah. that's exactly right. lz, former president trump is teasing a comeback, running again in 2024. do you think that's something the republican party would welcome? >> it seems so because they're still willing to follow his lead in a lot of areas. think about all the bills being passed across the country in terms of voter registration, voter restriction, they're all based on the lie from trump who is the source of all this. they'

they love that someone associated with trump is being led in -- michael cohen is saying they got him.re's a recreational thrilled to this, which is really discomforting. i think people need to look at this and say, well, you know, there's a person here. i don't know this person. nor do most other people. we have gotten to a point in this country where we no longer treat these figures as human beings. people get so much joy out of the thought of all of this. they're going to hoist a wretch. that's really >> neil: i know you're not an accountant. of these so-called crimes might have come at a time when you didn't have to pay taxes on benefits or perks that companies gave you. the companies themselves would pay the taxes. a lot we don't know about that. it keeps coming back to this is it? am i missing something that could be leading to a separate head shake here? what do you think? >> right, no that's true. first of all, what they're investigating generally is ubiquitous among corporations. corporations undervalue assets for tax purposes and overvalue them for loan purposes. it happens.

better life. >>> michael cohen, ex-lawyer to former president donald trump is seeking $20 million in ministration retaliated against him for his plan to publish a tell all book by sending him back to prison after he was furloughed early in may of last year due to coronavirus concerns. he had been serving a three-year sentence after pleading guilty to federal crimes surrounding hush money payments made to women with ties to trump. cohen says his return to prison in july amounted to false imprisonment, and wrongful confinement. >>> well, this weekend millions of americans are hitting the roads and the skies for the 4th of july weekend, but this post pandemic holiday is going to cost you. >> yeah, nearly every aspect of traveling is going to be more expensive this year, from gas and rental cars to hotels, msnbc reporter gary gurnback tells us what to expect. where did you get the bosses to send you today? >> reporter: we're here in delaware. >> delaware. >> you and me, everyone has been confined to their homes and confined behind these masks for the past year and a half. people are over