mr. cummings' earlier statement. at this point, this committee is not investigating wlong doing for political purposes by high-ranking individuals in or out of this government. we are investigating something that has been entered as fact that wrong doing occurred and occurred over a group. and that group happened to be keyworded things that are generally called conservative. in my research on this and i think mr. cummings would agree, this is not new to government. this has happened before and it's not always been conservative groups. so as we go through this, i would ask all of us to avoid talking about who is liked by president bush, who is liked by president obama, who is liked by republicans or democrats. let's all be repulicrats and demogans today. >> i appreciate you saying what you just said. and i agree with what you just said. and i would associate myself with your words. >> mr. chairman. >> thank you, seeking recognition. >> gentlemen, yield for one minute. >> a fraction thereof. >> i want to say the same,

mr. cummings. >> first of all with all respect for my good friend mr. gowdy. said i'd like to he some it run like a federal court. unfortunately this is not a federal court and she does have a right, and i think and we have to adhere to that. >> thank you. we'll pause for a moment. [pause in the proceedings ] >> miss lerner i'll ask you a couple of additional questions. is it possible we could narcotic or the scope of questions and there are some areas that you would be able to answer any questions on here today? >> i will not answer any questions or testify today. >> miss lerner would you be willing to answer questions specifically related to the earlier statements made under oath before this committee? >> i decline to answer that question for the reasons i've already given. >> for this reason i have no choice but to excuse the witness subject to recall after we seek specific counsel on the questions of whether or not the constitutional right of the fifth amendment has been properly waived, notwithstanding that in consultation with the department of justice a

mr. cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom. she just testified, she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege, you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross-examination, that's not the way it works. she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to answer our questions. >>> a far reaching bill to overhaul the nation's immigration system is now headed to the full senate in early june. the senate judiciary committee easily passed the measure late tuesday, paving the way for 11 million illegal immigrants to receive permanent u.s. citiz citizensh citizenship. passage in the house and senate may be more likely. >>> earnings after the bell tonight from hewlett-packard. results better than analysts expected. jackie deangelis joins us now with the last quarter numbers and what's ahead for the biggest pc maker of them all. >> that's the question. hewlett-packard made 87 cents a share last quarter, 6 cents more than wall street was expting. remember, this

mr. cummings? >> first of all, i appreciate you staying with just said and i agree with what you just said. i would associate myself with your remarks. >> mr. chairman? >> for what purpose does the gentleman seek recognition? >> one minute? >> a fraction thereof. >> i appreciate what the chairman said, he is right on target, but the irony is inescapable, ms. lerner gets to exercise her constitutional rights but she will not sit here and answer questions about constitutional rights of thousands of americans. >> is the goal of this committee to get to the truth. if we have to go security -- have to go circuitous routes, the docks will eventually be connected. with that we will remove the other chair so it is less distracting. actually, i will take note of the gentle lady's opening statement. she made it very obvious that with 90,000 irs individuals, 900 working for her and more or less nine out of 900 involved in this, maybe slightly more, we are talking about a fraction of 1% of the irs and i join wi

mr. cummings. listening to your testimony. during an interview with the committee, you were asked point blank, closer to the time that this happened, whether anyone in the department instructed you to withhold and permission from mr. chaffetz. it asked, "did you receive any direction that mr. chaffetz should not be given them permission from washington? washington?' and you said you did not. this is a worse one testimony. abbas looking at the testimony. -- this is your swan testimony and i and just looking at it. >> i recall that i was instructed not to allow personal .nterviews >> are not trying to twist you up. >> i understand, but i recall also stating that i was not to allow personal interviews between congressman chaffetz, me.rso, acting dsm, or >> riddle to make sure the state department officials are present. -- you were told to make sure they were present. >> correct. >> they told me not to be isolated with congressman chaffetz. is that correct? they did not tell you not to say anything, but do not be isolated. >> they

mr. cummings is shot to $5 run this by the court room.e just testified and waved her fifth amendment right to privilege. you will get to tell your side of the story in the not be subjected to cross-examination. lou: the congressman will joi us in moments of talk about the latest in the obama irs scandal. also, among our guests, the man who led opposition to the gang of eight immigration bill, senator jeff sessions, and we will be talking about the political impact of all of the white house scandals, former senator stt brown. but joining us now, member of the house oversight committee, rmer federal prosecutor. you heard his view of the fact that lerner forfeited her right under the fifth amendment when she played her innocence before the committee. and that is now a subject to be determined. it is great to have you back with this. >> thank you. lou:t is your firm view that she developed which she said suez and the sense, the assertions that she did not break the law violated any regulations. what do you think the automobile ? well, if they

mr. cummings' earlier statement. at this point, this committee is not investigating wrongdoing for political purposes by high-ranking individuals in or out of this government. we are investigating something which has now been entered as fact that wrongdoing occurred and occurred over a group and that group happened to be key worded things that are generally called conservative. in my research on this, and i think mr. cummings would agree, this is not new to government. this has happened before. and it has not always been conservative groups. so as we go through this, i would ask all of us to avoid talking about who is liked by president bush, who is liked by president obama, who is liked by republicans or democrats. -rats and e republic democrans today. >> i agree with what you just said and i would associate myself with your words. >> mr. chairman? >> for what purpose does the gentleman seek recognition? >> would the gentleman yield one minute? >> a fraction thereof. >> i want to say the same. i appreciate what the

mr. cummings said. she waived her fifth amendment right. you don't get to tell your story and not be subjected to cross-examination. she waived the right of fifth million privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. [ applause ] >> megyn: congressman john mica is member of the government reform committee. representative, thank you for being here. your feelings on first of all where they left off whether she waived her fifth amendment privilege by making an opening statement they would be serving to her but not subjecting herself to questioning? >> i think trey was right. i think she did try to get her points across and then she exited and exercised her fifth amendment rights. now i'm not an attorney. i can't sort that out. we will be called back and she will be held accountable. with a irs has done is an audit. we are doing an investigation. as you heard the inspector general say there may be in the future criminal referrals. >> megyn: her lawyer says she hasn't committed any crimes, made any

mr. cummings from maryland said we should run this hearing like a courtroom. i thought about my previous job. you can't say i didn't rob the bank but i won't answer the prosecutor's questions. you can't do what she did yesterday if we were in a courtroom. bill: it doesn't appear chairman darrell issa knew where you were going with that. does this mean lois lerner comes back before your committee? >> among chairman issa's wonderful quality, he's not an attorney but he does listen to us who couldn't do anything else for a living and went to law school and he did last-night. let's play this out. let's assume he brings her back. i promise she won't make the same mistake today as she tid yesterday. you can't make someone talk unless your jim is jack bower. are we going to holder in contempt. put her in jail, offer her immunity which would i not be a fan of or are we going to build a case not using her testimony? all of that will be decided at the chairman speaker level. bill: if you bring her back she can raise her right hand and invoke the amendment and not answer

mr. cummings is recognized. >> thank you very much. we appreciate you being here. mr.ibed what happened that night, it reminded me of the high cost that is paid by so many of our forlk the diplomatic court and their bravery. you all go around the world in foreign places, trying to make a difference. as i listen to your testimony i could not help but think about something i said recently in a eulogy for relatives. i said that death is a part of life. but so often we have to find the way to make life a part of death. i guess the reason why i am saying that, i want to go back to something mr. nordstrom said when he was -- he said he wanted to make sure we learn from this so that your comrades and our members of the diplomatic corps who sadly passed away -- so this never happens again. i appreciate it. i know this is difficult. we all feel your pain. i just want to -- going back to what mr. nordstrom said trying to make sure we have a complete picture. there is another piece to this too. that is tahthat we have some balancing to do today. we have to listen to you all and t

mr. cummings said we shouldrun this like a courtroom, i agree she testified, and waived her right to privilege, you don't get to tell your side of the story not be subjected cross-examination. the congressman will be joining us in the latest in obama irs scandal. the entire obama administration at times, seems to be hunk erring downberring down behind a stonewall. it has been now to wall off the irs, frustrating for democrats as well as republican congressmen. here is democrat steven lynch of massachusets. >> if this committee is prevented by obstruct or refusal to answer, the questions that we need to get to the bottom of this, you will leave us no alternative but to ask for the appointment of a special prosecutor, there will be hell to pay if that is the route we choose to go down. lou: weekly stanc standard. prior to joining the irs, learner of head of the enforcement officer at the federal elect commission, the christian coalition accuses the fec in late '90s of conducting an uncalled for investigation, into issues advocacy, that cost the coalition hundreds of thousands to defend the case

mr. cummings is a good person. i actually happen to like elijah cummings and i am pleased with what he said to chairman issa and jason chaffetz. he asked for five seconds during his time, and he said, you know what, i agree with you, i agree with you, we need to hear from everybody. >> i have to say, i don't know that i've ever seen certainly a ranking member of a committee as important as the house oversight committee certainly be as declarative and as outspoken as he was in opposition to a proceeding and then based on obviously a reaction to what he heard from those three witnesses today make a judgment on principle, and intellectual integrity of the kind he's just named, saying the pickering and mullen should be before the committee. congressman -- >> kudos to him. >> absolutely. and to you. congressman trey gowdy, thank you for being here. >> thank you, lou. appreciate it. >>> dow 15,000. new record highs for the dow, the s&p 500. it is a party on wall street. ubs chief economist morey harris to talk about the r

mr. cummings. >> first of all, with all respect for my good friend mr.run like a federal court. unfortunately, this is not a federal court, and she does have a right, and we have to adhere to that. >> thank you. we'll pause for a moment. >> all right. you can see a rather contentious hearing taking place on capitol hill. lois lerner, she was the irs official who oversaw the unit that singled conservatives. she sat down and she empathically said i have done nothing wrong. i have not provided any false information to this congress. and then the chair, congressman issa dismissed her. and another congressman called her back. let's listen to more. >> -- today. >> miss lerner, would you be willing to answer questions specifically related to the earlier statements made under oath before this committee? >> i decline to answer that question for the reasons i've already given. >> for this reason, i have no choice but to excuse the witness, subject to re-call, after we seek specific counsel on questions of whether or not the constitutional right of the fifth amendm

mr. cummings, democrat from maryland. you wrote this book and you and i have had conversations about gun culture. i want to get your reaction to what i just said. here's how i feel having this conversation. i feel everyone who is a liberal who doesn't own a gun is in this weird defensive crouch they have to apologize for not being part of gun culture and tipping their head they understand gun culture is an important thing. i want to say, look, guns are destructive things that do a lot of damage. i think it's fine to come into the conversation with real skepticism and trepidation about how they're regulated and managed. >> that's fine. i would take issue with the highly disrespectful tone you're taking. i'm with you on the merits. my heart goes out to the sparks family. i have to say, i started shooting when i was 5. a .22 rifle when i was 5. teaching young children to shoot can be disciplining, mind-eye coordination. it's a family tradition. teaching children to shoot can be a good thing what is not okay is having access

mr. cummings. let's watch it. >> what did she have to say to you? >> she demanded a report on the individual. >> was she upset by the fact that this -- >> she was upset. >> first time it's ever happened, was not allowed to be in that classified briefing. was she upset about that fact? >> she was very upset. >> this goes right next to the person next to hillary clinton, is that correct? >> that's correct. >> here's a guy with 22 years of outstanding service to our country and now they are obstructing it because he won't help them cover this up, he's an honorable man telling the truth and now getting this kind of treatment from the very people who praised him before. >> and thanks for narrating it. the spokesman for clinton called it completely and utterly false. let me go to tommy -- no, it's not tommy. it's ginger gibson. tell me about this case and what you heard today. >> today we heard one of the most detailed outlines of what happened that night from mr. hicks who was there in libya and at first it looked like they were going to leave secretary

mr. cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom, and i agree. she just testified. get to tell your side of the story, and then not be subjected to cross-examination. she waived her right to the fifth amendment privilegish queuing an opening statement. >> i said i would like to see it run like a federal court. unfortunately this is not a federal court, and she does have the right and i think -- and we have to adhere to that. >> michael: nothing means no respect like with all due respect. joining us now to provide us with his own special audit of the debacle is chris moody, political reporter for yahoo. thanks as always for joining us inside "the war room." the fifth amendment is invoke so witnesses can avoid implicating themselves. she says she is innocent. why then raise the fifth amendment. >> it certainly raises flags to say what is she hiding. the officials said that nothing illegal was done but they are all admitting that wrong was done. they screwed up. lerner today said i did not illegal, and i did nothing wrong as well. she didn't take time to apologize for

mr. cummings, if you can, just stay with us. i just want to play for our viewers what charles ramsey told a local reporter tonight when he suddenly heard amanda berry screaming for help. listen. >> i heard screaming. i'm eating my mcdonalds, i've come outside. and i see this girl going nuts trying to get out of the house. so i go on the porch, i go on the porch and she says help me get out. i've been in here a long time. so, you know, i figured it's domestic violence dispute. i open the door and we can't get in that way. how the door is, it's so much that a body can't fit through, only your hand. so we kick at the bottom. and she comes out with a little girl. and she says call 9-1-1, my name is amanda berry. >> did you know who that was when she said that? >> when she told me, it didn't register, until i got the call to 911. i said i'm calling 9-1-1 for amanda berry? i thought this girl was dead. you know what i mean? she got on the phone and said, yes, this is me. and the detective cook, right here, detective gregory cook says

mr. cummings said we need additional hearings. even the democrats understand this -- we haven't got to the bottom of this. we need additional hearings. we need to find out certain military questions that were raised. we need to find out why, in fact, was a lawyer sent on a congressional delegates to make sure that congressman chaffets didn't get to talk with everyone and anyone he wanted in a one-on-one fashion. why did all -- so even congressman cummings says we need additional hearings. >> bill: you have got to bring in ambassador rice. that's slow to bring in. >> i would love that. >> bill: who told you to say that bogus theory? who ordered you to say it? who? that's the crux of the matter. then, the thing might start to unravel. last word. >> congressman gouty would love. we would all love a chance to have ambassador rice on the witness stand under oath answering that question. >> bill: why what is holding that up? why isn't she there. >> we will keep working on that. we want to make sure it's the right time and we get the ans

mr. cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom and i agree with him. she just testified.he just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross-examination. thatst n that's not the way it works. she waived her right by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. >> you get a sense of the animated moment there. and there are questions about what might happen down the line with lois lerner. offering her the possibility of narrowing the list of questions, she still declined. and since that time, the former irs commissioner douglas schulman has been questioned repeatedly by both democrats and republicans who are clearly frustrated that once he did know about this targeting of conservative groups that he did not alert congress, members of congress say he had an obligation to do that. schulman says no, he didn't, but there is enormous frustration playing out here today. richard? >> kelly o'donnell. as that hearing continues at the moment, we are now going to go back to

mr. cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom. i agree with him. she just testified. she just waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be suggested to cross-examination. that's not the way it works. she waived her right to fifth amendment privilege by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. >> wow. we should note the committee's chairman darrell issa wants to recall lerner. ms. lerner refused to answer any questions from lawmakers which, of course, only fuels speculation there's more to the story than has been told. this weekend "the new york times" reported that at the core of this scandal is a truly dysfunctional office. as the "time"s described it, quote, an understaffed cincinnati outpost that was alienated from the broader irs culture and given little direction. overseen by a revolving cast of mid-level managers stalled by miscommunication with irs lawyers and executives in washington. and confused about the rules they were enforcing. so what's really going on here?

mr. cummings just said we should run this like a courtroom. i agree with him. >> she just testified. waived her fifth amendment right to privilege. you don't get to tell your side of the story and not be subjected to cross examination. that's not the way it works. she waived her right by issuing an opening statement. she ought to stand here and answer our questions. >> so, did irs official lois lerner take the fifth amendment or not when she testified on capitol hill wednesday? legally, what's next for lerner, who was placed on administrative leave yesterday. let's bring in former prosecutor tom curran now in charge of regulatory crime and if we get him hooked up we have john eastman, professional of constitutional law at chapman university. he might be joining us currently. anyway, tom curran, nice to see you. what's the story? did she give up her rights to a fifth amendment? >> i don't think she did. the supreme court said it is there for innocent people and people with issues. she basically said i didn't do anything wrong but because of the atmosphere here, i'm not going to answer

mr. cummings, our ranking member, was not allowed to have any access to witnesses before they came in.o it suggests that this is sort of the political agenda and actually i think in my view, diminishing the importance of get together bottom of what we can learn. >> congressman, just to make sure we have that right. what is the reason for that? why wouldn't you want the ranking member involved? >> that the question that we ask. normally if you were going to get to the bottom, you have both side having an stuopportunity t preinterview witnesses. they were totally denied access to witnesses at all. that's so we can be prepare ped. it is much more credible than there is this tragedy. there are legitimate questions about what did we do wrong or what could we have done better. if they are done together, then obviously it gives the american people some confidence that this is not washington turning a tragedy into a political opportunity. >> and congressman, you mentioned there are legitimate questions here. i think we all feel that way. we have been studying this indent. there was an accounta

mr. cummings of maryland, i think he agreed with this because i asked for this information, he interrupted he asked me to yield him time and he said "i agree with you." and i appreciate him doing that. that's the right answer. >> rose: do you believe that any of the people that were in benghazi or in tripoli part of the state department, have been because they stepped forward a questioned what had happened and questioned the response, have been subjected to any kind of internal discipline. >> well, we did hear testimony from the chief of mission, gregory hicks, that he felt like he had been demoated along the way, been mistreated. he had stellar performance reviews every single step of the way including a nice phone call from the president of the united states congratulating him on the great stuff he did. but the moment he started questioning the senior leadership saying "how is it secretary rice made those statements?" his career just went downhill immediately. that's a very serious question and we got concurrents on democrat and republican side that if anybody, any whistle blower is step

mr. cummings in trying to find a bipartisan resolution of all of this. >> before i let you go, i know youmpaigned with elizabeth colbert busch. are you surprised mark sanford is going to be one of your new colleagues in the south carolina delegation. >> i am a bit surprised. when i look at exactly what surrounded that campaign, i'm really disappointed in her loss. but, you know, mark and i know each other pretty well. i'm not too sure that we ever agree on much. we are from a different generation. we bring to the congress a different set of experiences. but i always try to work on behalf of the people of south carolina and my congressional district. and i'll work with anybody to get to the ends that we ought to all be seeking. but i'm never going to give up on the dreams and aspirations of the people who sent me here. >> all right. congressman jim clyburn, south carolina. veteran democrat and assistant leader of the house democrats. thanks for coming on this morning. >> thanks for having me. >>> coming up, we're going back to cleveland as we're learning more and more about the gruesome, c