mr. shulman. did you tell mr. shulman he should correct the record? >> no, sir, i did not. >> have you been disciplined for not correcting the record? >> no, sir, it's not my purview. >> you're deputy commissioner you're in the meeting. you learned about that day. >> mr. george told us in his routine monthly meeting that they were doing an investigation of tege. >> we understood that. all i'm asking is there's got to be some reason why you didn't feel any obligation any reason you should come forward and set the record straight. the inspector general told the irs what was going on. you didn't feel like he should tell us or you didn't feel it coming it was incumbent upon you to tell the committee? >> at the irs irs, we have two deputy commissioners that have clearly delineated. >> the gentleman's time is expired. the gentlelady may finish. >> the a the the internal revenue service we have two deputy commissioners with clearly delineated responsibilities. i do not have responsibility for the service and enforcement programs. -- mr. chairman -- >> miss t

mr. shulman was. here are the dates. here is who he met with. this is what was discussed. that's simple, the fact that the president doesn't do it should raise the curiosity of every reporter, mr. woodward, every reporter. yet, as i said, the major network news on television ignored the story last week in its totality. it's amazing. >> well, i will put it in a request on it 6/nr found them responsive to these things. as i said they are not yet in the bunker, that the answers are forthcoming sometimes. it takes a long time. >> here is why they are not doing it in my opinion with all due respect. because there is no pressure on them to do it. this is a totally different environment than when you and bernstein are running around. you got flack. >> more than flack. >> you guys got pressure. but the journalistic community was behind you. that's one of the reasons i'm sitting here today was because of what you did with watergate. i wanted to be an investigative reporter and indeed did do a lot of that because of what you did. >> in fact, bill, i lived through. this people did not

mr. shulman, you should check things out. i hope fox will have the segment where they look at how many visits there were. we don't know the answer. could have been as few as 11 and as many as 100. i hope they take a look at that. mr. shulman crontributed to thi because when he was in congress and he gave the answer about taking his kids to an easter egg hunt. i think that was sort of like waving the red flag and that's one of the reasons why the conservative media jumped on this. >> hard to know, dana, in the midst of an investigation where something like that would turn out to be a significant breakthrough or not much of anything at all. >> i think this is just plain shotty reporting. the white house voluntarily started putting these things out there. much of this had been out in a congressional hearing before this report came out p. this was out there in the public domain and then they took what's out there in the public domain and made some outrageous inference as if they knew what happened. that is crazy. >> crazy? >> cra

not told the nation what the hell, there you go, stewart, douglas shulman was doing in the white house all those times. what's the holdup, mrpresident? how about that transparency deal? finally, here is a piece of information you should know. shulman's wife susan anderson big time left wing person. supporter of the occupy wall street movement. hen you hear democrats say that shulman is a nonideological guy, please keep that in mind and that's the memo. now for top story tonight. reaction, joining us from reaction charles krauthammer. what's the most important thing you heard from those hearings, charles? >> what it did today isut a on tha abstraction the 501 c 4 and c 3 which doesn't mean a lot to folks put a face on the abstraction of what it means when the government abuses you and you see these folks who look like ordinary americans who are trying to do the quintessential american thing. political speech to organize, to express themselves, and precisely because they were doing that, they are being harassed as we heard about the leakage of information about the donors, they're being illegally exposed in a way that you rea

mr. shulman, he has apparently been to the white house as has been reported 157 times and you were only up there once. have you been able to figure out what possible reason he might have had for that many trips to the white house? >> i was there more than once. i used to go beg for money. what i said was i was only there one time for a policy meeting, and that was actually on immigrationish you as. look, there are legitimate reasons for him to be at the white house. >> apparently he was there more than any other cabinet official in the white house. it does raise major questions. now we have the news that the folks in ohio are saying that it was washington that directed the targeting of these conservative groups. what's your reaction to this? >> it is a little complicated. initial revelations talked about the screening criteria in the c4 applications process. and that is to say they flagged certain applications for additional work using really what were outrageous selection criteria, tea party and words like that and nothing from more liberal leaning groups. >> it does appear they didn't wa

mr. shulman who no longer there. >> was shulman the one who congressman boustany, told him in march of 2012, there was no targeting. he authorized thespending. they paid two event planners and they gave them percentage and a commission. so they didn't bother negotiate hotel rooms to get cheaper rooms because the larger the bill was, the bigger their commission was. greta, a lot ofhe government conferences c we have talked about the years. conference held the same year, 2010, at the gsa, general services administration. >> the guy in the bathtub. >> that was in las vegas. i have to say the federal the last two years, really in cut back on these conferences throughout the government, rtly because of the optics and partly because they don't want to spendmoney. >> whoever thoughit was a good idea, who didn't have a sense it was not oy to spend money like this? they really aren't conferences. they could get gym and a bunch of folding chairs and podium with a microphone if they wanted a conference. the culture was, who cares, it ot theirs. >> the culture was also about building rale. i think ther

mr. shulman. remember all the times he went to visit the white house. he wasn't the only one. wait until you hear how many times his chief of staff decided to walk over to 1600 pennsylvania. what were they doing? >> what would be some of the reasons you might be at the white house? >> the easter egg roll with my kids, questions about the administerability of tax policy they were thinking of, our budget. look what mommy is having. mommy's having a french fry. yes she is, yes she is. [ bop ] [ male announcer ] could've had a v8. 100% vegetable juice, with three of your daily vegetable servings in every little bottle. >>> fox news alert out of pass mass. we have received conflicting reports on whether police have issued an arrest warrant for patriots tight end, aaron hernandez. "usa today" is reporting that according to the district court, no arrest warrant has been issued yet. nothing in the court record to suggest this according to the district court in the relevant jurisdiction. there have been reports earlier this morning he was going to get arrested for obstruction of justic

mr. shulman? >> about singling out conservative groups for special scrutiny? we're talking about, isn't it? >> absolutely sure i did not talk to anyone -- >> 118 visits. it didn't comeidn' up with a cal conversation after 132 members of congress contacted you abouto it? you sure you didn't bring di iti with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. >> sean: now, that was former irs commissioner doug shulman s claiming that he never spoke to anyone in the white house about the tax agency's targeting of conservatives, but is that thet? truth, and do average americansa believe him? let's bring back our studio audience to respond. do you believe him? anybody. >>ody no. >> sean: nobody believes him. it's actually 157 times we learned today. anyone think he was there for coffee, tea and crumpets? no? >> easter egg rolls. >> sean: that's right. bill, tell your story. >> i'm founder of the west jersey tea party. in august of 2010 we filed forju 501(c)(4) status, and it wasn't until january of 2012 that we received our letter. like many people in thisve audience

mr. shulman was cleared in white house. many of the meetings were for healthcare implementation.ith him. that fairousing that fairou going on. this is a fabricated debate. >> watch this from nbc news. >> the irs is being used in the same way they tried to use the president's birth cert cal. for republicans like darrell issa the irs stands for something inflammatory. the three letters are now on fire with political corruption and malfeasance burning hot just like the suspicious fire that engulfed mr. issa's warehouse back in 1982. and despite the complete lack of any evidence linking the president to the targeting of tea party groups, republicans are using it as their latest weapon in the war against the black man in the white house. >> sean: according to a brand new bloomberg poll 47% believe the president is not being truthful when claims he didn't have prior knowledge about the irs scandal. joining us, author michelle malkin and democratic strategic james carville. two articulate people. james, are you concerned with the admission that people have been targeted in the country b

mr. shulman is gone, mr. miller is fired. she was the top-ranking official that was there when this was happening. didn't feel it was incumbent to set the record straight, even though her boss had testified two months prior to congress and said he could give us assurances no targeting going on. every time you pull on a string with this deal, it just unravels more and more from sweetheart deals to the second person taking the fifth to conferences where extravagant spending of taxpayer dollars takes place and on and on it goes, and we'll keep pursuing this. it takes time to get to the truth. you have to interview a lot of people. we're just getting started. >> is it time for a special prosecutor? this has been going on for years, these problems at the irs, with all due respect to congress, a lot of this going on for years, didn't get uncovered. time for a special prosecutor with subpoena power and the power to present to a fwrgrand jury. >> maybe down the road. we have interviewed 11 people, when we interview someone, we find o

mr. shulman? >> about singling out conservative groups for special scrutiny?alking about, isn't it? >> absolutely sure i did not talk to anyone -- >> 118 visits. it didn't comeidn' up with a cal conversation after 132 members of congress contacted you abouto it? you sure you didn't bring di iti with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. >> sean: now, that was former irs commissioner doug shulman s claiming that he never spoke to anyone in the white house about the tax agency's targeting of conservatives, but is that thet? truth, and do average americansa believe him? let's bring back our studio audience to respond. do you believe him? anybody. >>ody no. >> sean: nobody believes him. it's actually 157 times we learned today. anyone think he was there for coffee, tea and crumpets? no? >> easter egg rolls. >> sean: that's right. bill, tell your story. >> i'm founder of the west jersey tea party. in august of 2010 we filed forju 501(c)(4) status, and it wasn't until january of 2012 that we received our letter. like many people in thisve audience we had

mr. shulman. >> greta: theong one . congressman boustany said there was no targing.e has authorized the spending. if you look at report, they paig two event planners and they paid them -- they gaveem a percentage on ataommission and rooms to get cheaper roomsl because the larger the bill, the bigger their commissions was. t> you know, greta, a lot of government conferences have come undernm scrutiny in recent year. we have talked about the conference held the same year, 2010 at the gsa, general services -- >> greta: the guy in the bathtub. >> yeah. that was in las vegas. i have to say, though, that the federal government in the last n years has really cut back on the conferences, throughout the government. partly because of the optics and partly because they don't want to spend the money. >> greta: even to have done it in the first place, whoidn't have a sense that it was not okay to spend money like this? they are parties. i mean, it's like, they money le this? they really aren't conferences. they could get gym and a bunch of folding chairs and podium with a micropn

mr. shulman? >> about singling out conservative groups for special scrutiny? it? >> absolutely sure i did not talk to anyone -- >> 118 visits. it didn't comeidn' up with a cal conversation after 132 members of congress contacted you abouto it? you sure you didn't bring di iti with anybody at the white house? >> not to my memory. >> sean: now, that was former irs commissioner doug shulman s claiming that he never spoke to anyone in the white house about the tax agency's targeting of conservatives, but is that thet? truth, and do average americansa believe him? let's bring back our studio audience to respond. do you believe him? anybody. >>ody no. >> sean: nobody believes him. it's actually 157 times we learned today. anyone think he was there for coffee, tea and crumpets? no? >> easter egg rolls. >> sean: that's right. bill, tell your story. >> i'm founder of the west jersey tea party. in august of 2010 we filed forju 501(c)(4) status, and it wasn't until january of 2012 that we received our letter. like many people in thisve audience we had the same intrusive

mr. shulman aren't black.f racism are as flimsy as hiltry's polls numbers, which are dropping fast. some blame benghazi, but i bet peterson has another reason. hillary is black. oops, sorry. that's just a reflex. she's a w. the fact is, as your world view crumbles, the only way to avoid reality is an excuse that smears your critics. you hate them because he's black or a lady. it's a vicious streak that let's you damage reputations just to save your own skin. and if you disagree with me, it's probably because i'm short. kimberly, it's that kind of hate crime -- short people are the last people allowed to be persecuted in this world. right, dana? >> sexual orientation, duke that. but short people, definitely. >> large people. >> sorry. >> you make me sick. she's shorter than me. >> i would never do lifts. that's dishonest. >> oh, okay. can i read her comment after she said this? she said to be clear, i didn't call anybody racist. rather i was relaying the truth about conversations i've had with my colleagues and

mr. shulman, senior staff admitted knowing this information previously are subordinates of the president? >> yes, they are subordinates of the president. >> we can conclude then that either the president or the subordinates of the president were well aware of or were involved in the targeting of political opponents? >> i don't know that i can judge -- jump to thatconclusion. i think there's more analysis and review that needs to be done. i understand the question and understand the need to answer that question. i think we are asking for indulgence to make sure we can review the facts and get the information that you and this committee needs to help answer those questions. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> this is quite a mystery. we spent a couple hours now. there has been a hearing today and hearings last week trying to determine how this came about. i know there has been some conversation today that is not necessarily -- why these individuals to these actions. i think is very relevant. in determining the motivation and determining the rationale is very critical to preventing this from ever

mr. shulman went 160 times. >> i have heard that number. i have not been to the white house since i started at the irs. >> finally, within your purview, i think you have the ability to bring some of these costs under control and hold people accountable. you were at omb. somehow this slipped by omb. now you have the ability to hold people accountable. people misused their position to use taxpayer money. we look forward to working with you. the first thing i want out of you is to tell us what we need to do to change the law. we look forward to your recommendation so people cannot be paid for these misdeeds with the public trust. i yield back. >> thank you. the gentleman from virginia is recognized. >> welcome, mr. werfel. there are some stories about you. you are a frequent flyer. thank you for your past service. we will be supportive in your new role. to clarify one thing, you are being careful in response to mr. jordan on ms. lerner. i think there are two aspects of that to be careful about. one, predecessors and senior officials in the irs

mr. shulman knew about the activities and concealed them for almost two years and misled congress. >> hehite house an unprecedented 157 times. we don't know and he's not saying who he talked to and what he talked about? >> yeah, and we're going to get to the bottom of that as well. that's no coincidence, the sheer number of times. it's not explained by the president's health care law. the hhs wasn't there, the lead agency that many times. and we have very thorough and deliberate investigations and we're going to get the truth e what are we going to get that's new today. you're going to be questioning or the committee is going to question the tea party and other groups targeted. what's new that's going to emerge today? >> well, two things, one, i think in any investigation, it's important to hear from the victims themselves and what they experience and how it all unfolded and may shed some light on the standpoint so i think it's an important hearing. >> so far i think we're right in saying that we do not know who orchestrated or who ordered the campaign of targeting the servi service, des

mr. shulman among others. today he will try to hold some folks responsible.ou going to speak with and what do you hope to accomplish? >> main witness today is going to be the new acting commissioner, daniel werfel. what we want to hear today is what happened. who came up with this plan? we know for sure they targeted individual groups for extra scrutiny and bullied them, intimidated them and we want to know how far this abuse goes, we want to find out who is responsible. we want to find out who is going to be held accountable and we want tune how we're going to make sure this never happens because we give the irs $10 billion a year and we're not going to give them another dime until they come forward with answers. >> megyn: but with due respect to you, how do you expect to get those answers? it's been an extra -- exercise in frustration watching them say i'm not going to name names on camera. i'm not sure. we're looking into it. it's aggravating. no one is taking responsibility saying i'll tell you how it went down, how it got orchestrated. who oversaw it and

mr. shulman what was discussed and why was a campaign official in talks with the i.r.s. would be a question that anybody would be interested to find the answer to. why was doug shulman there 157 times. you don't have to waste your time on television talking about things that don't matter and are irrelevant when issues like that are staring you in the face. >> doug raises the question about stephanie cutter she is a main political operative for barack obama. at the time of the i.r.s. meetings that she blurted out she was sitting in on her main job was making sure that the incumbent president got reelected. what we are seeing now is that all of this i.r.s. harassment and intimidation had a material effect on not one but two election cycles, 2010 and 2012. what was she doing in these meetings? these are the kind of questions that martin beshear and others should be asking. when they can't deal in the reality and they don't want to deal with facts, martha they go to the refuge of a skoupbd tkr sco u.n. dral which is race. bill: eric holder is on the hill. a hearing beginning

mr. shulman prior? >> yes. roughly five times over the course of four years. >> at the white house? i think twoall meetings or seen him twice at the white house. >> what was the topic? and him being at that ceremony. the other was a meeting held in executive office building. and mr.e was that irs shulman representing the irs and expressing concern to the administration. the concern was the social security administration releases information about deceased people -- >> i look forward to hearing more about that. let's keep going. ?ow many criminal referrals >> criminal referrals? i do not think there have been any yet. the justice department and ig actively reviewing those issues. they are getting to that question. the irs received money through the stimulus. comes the stimulus. hundreds of billions of dollars. i cannot figure out how to stimulate the economy the obama administration gave $80 million to the irs. thisou see where maybe abuse of money is that they were overflowing with cash? the infusion of $80 million. $4000 for a conference? that is fine. my time is running out. last

mr. shulman and here to ask them to explain to us why from 2007 to 2008, the congress but it was $39 and that it is more than doubled when we are going into a recession -- was $13 milion and that it is more than double the me are going into a recession. it would be malpractice if we don't figure out what happened there. if we are truly going to get the cause this, we have to understand what happened to cause something to double. i'm almost finished. according to the irs spending data, the single largest increase in conference spending occur between 2007, 2008 by more than $15 million in a single year. this is simply unacceptable and unnecessary. it may be difficult to find any good news today but at least there are an indication that things are beginning to change. in 2011 after news broke about another wasteful conference held other general services and ministration in las vegas, the president issued an executive order that reduce travel and other expenditures across all federal agencies. i give you credit. a lot of the things have to do with what we did in this committee. in 2012, the

mr. shulman either misled the committee. we are told that similar practices could be going on. you have any reason to believe and can you investigate whether the audit division has targeted individual specifically for audits based upon donations or engagement in conservative political activity or any political activity? >> let me answer that directly. i'm not aware of any such behavior. i initiated a review to answer that question. if i find anything that is similar in scope to what is in this inspector general's report, i will make you aware. >> did you find anything related to this in your view? >> greenback conducted a review in this area. >> thank you, mr. chairman. >> mrs. pugh kaptur. mrs. biggerkaptur. >> some media reports say the irs was targeting conservative groups for political purposes. your report contradicts that claim. can you please comment on if you found any political motivation in reviewing tax-exempt applications? >> congresswoman, let me respond in the following way. when we looked at the -- there were 298 cases put into a category for political activities

mr. gowdy grilling former irs commissioner douglas shulman. >> did you do anything to verify that the practice as insidious as it was was stopped? >> the inspector general was going to be looking into it. >> is it that you can't say yes or no or you are just choosing not to say yes or no? >> you can answer the question? did you do anything personally to make sure in this insidious discriminatory practice was stopped? yes or no? >> bill: shulman had no meaningful answer. joining us now from washington is congressman gody. you sounded like me. i didn't sound that good, thank you. >> bill: do you think this was orchestrated by the democratic party or the white house? >> well, i don't have any evidence to support that, but i can tell you this. one place we ought to be looking is the obama/biden reelect. not just the white house but their re-election team. i like to deal in evidence. i can't prove to you that it goes to the white house. can i tell it you, this i don't think two rogue agents in cincinnati concocted this scheme on their own. >> bill: somebody concocted what you called the scheme to t

mr. chairman -- >> we had the former irs commissioner shulman who knew about political targeting long before congress was told, implying the organizations were responsibling for the targeting because they chose to apply for tax exempt status. so you're to blame, i guess, is the message here. >> my personal favorite was question number 33, which relation to protests asked for a listing of our, quote, committed violations of local ordinance, breaches of public order or arrests, then requested details on how we conduct or promote illegal activities. i think the irs needs to fix its labeling machine. we're the san fernando valley patriots, not occupy oakland. >> you have proof that the irs, an individual or a group of individuals, at the irs committed a felony, you have proof of this, and nothing has occurred to seek or find justice. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> most stunningly, on may 3rd of this year, in follow-up to a privacy act request, where we asked for the specific information, that federal law allows us to request when there's been an investigation into the disclosure of our t

mr. chairman -- >> we had the former irs commissioner shulman who knew about political targeting long before congress was told, implying the organizations were responsibling for the targeting because they chose to apply for tax exempt status. so you're to blame, i guess, is the message here. >> my personal favorite was question number 33, which relation to protests asked for a listing of our, quote, committed violations of local ordinance, breaches of public order or arrests, then requested details on how we conduct or promote illegal activities. i think the irs needs to fix its labeling machine. we're the san fernando valley patriots, not occupy oakland. >> you have proof that the irs, an individual or a group of individuals, at the irs committed a felony, you have proof of this, and nothing has occurred to seek or find justice. is that correct? >> that's correct. >> most stunningly, on may 3rd of this year, in follow-up to a privacy act request, where we asked for the specific information, that federal law allows us to request when there's been an investigation into the disclosure of our t

shulman policies -- mr. was over there and maybe he was talking about tax reform. tove not talked about going wait flat tax or a fair tax system. our smallmake sure businesses are able to grow? how do we do away with the loopholes so we can inspire that economic growth and make sure we have a tax code that is fair and that people can understand. we have got to do something about our energy resources in. january 2009, $1.84. we have the keystone pipeline. we have great allies to the north. expanded energy resources in this country. i'm concerned about our foreign policy. we have u.s. naval vessels that cannot sail. other people are watching that. that is be something his death by 1000 the cuts. host: hi, ron. caller: good morning. i have a couple of questions. we will start with the serious thing. 80,000 people have died, you say, over there in the past two years. if you take the amount of people that have died from not having health care in the united states and have died from gun violence, you want to give handguns to the rebels. you don't know who they are. guest

shulman, you said no. former acting irs commissioner mr. miller, you said no. then there hauling, you said yes. who is she? >> there hauling runs the affordable care act operations within the irs and i speak to her on an ongoing basis as part of my responsibility to engage with my senior leadership team on the ongoing operations of the irs. spent what was her role during this big time coming at a time -- >> has a good question at this one that we're looking at the comedy my best to explain it right now. ms. ingram was the commission of the tax-exempt government entities or decision be taken when these events occur. so the ig report starts to surface issues in and around early, say march 2010 is when this fact pattern begins on the ig time i pick is biased and that ms. ingram served as a commissioner of tax-exempt organizations which is a level above exhibit organizations, that org chart is in my report, and she served in that capacity until somewhere around the spring or summer of 2010. >> so there was an overlap of? >> there is an overlap. at the point time she moved over and was detailed over

mr. clapper has reversed those comments in the data gathering bombshell. his reversal is raising questions in a series of credibility challenges including attorney general eric holder and douglas shulman and jay carney who also provided information that we now have learned was false. listen to all of them. >> potential prosecution of the press have to disclosure of material that is nothing something i've been involved in or would think would be a wise policy. >> what has been happening is the normal back and forth that happens with the irs. there is absolutely no targeting. this is the kind of back and forth when people apply for 501c4 status. >> the white house and state department has made clear the single adjustment that was made by either of these two institutions were changing the word conflict to diplomatic facility. >> jamie: jamie weinstein is senior editor of the daily caller. great to have you with us. let me add more context, eric holder signed off at least in the james rosen case even though he said it didn't exist. we learned from the irs they were targeting extensively conservative groups, evennizations and other. then when it comes to benghazi, there wasn't a single cha

mr. chairman. i think that's why on thinking about this in terms of my primary mission is to restore that trust. >> reporter: scott, the advantage for the administration now that he's on stage and not doug shulmaner, the former heads of the irs, is that he comes in with an absolutely clean slate and can talk about all the things he's doing to try to change the agency. in fact, when he told the committee that he didn't think more money was an answer to the irs's problems, hall rogers of kentucky, republican chairman of the appropriations committee said, i'm beginning to like you. so we'll see whether or not he can continue danny werfel can continue that and tamp down some of the furor over the irs in the coming days. >> john, thanks so much. >> thank john harwood in washington following that story for us. >>> auto sales are firing are all cylinders. find out who's leading the pack next. plus -- >> i think e lon musk is absolutely one of the best ceos in the business. >> is chrysler's former vice chairman right about elon musk? >>> later, wait till you hear what the ladies who lunch crowd is doing before, during and after lunch over in the uk. many worry it's happening here. it's monday, a brand

mr. chairman. >> welcome to washington. >> the committee will be in order. ryan has the time >> we heard gingrich, we heard bush. we had the former i.r.s. commissioner shulmanho knew when the political targeting long before congress is told implying that the organizes were responsible for the targeting because they shows to apply for tax exempt status. you're to blame i guess is the message here. do you think that you were targeted based upon your political beliefs? your religious beliefs? or just because you chose to apply? >> our belief, our views. >> we had the acting commissioner miller here a couple of weeks ago, and we asked him, did groups with the word organizing or progressive in their name, were they targeted? the answer waup was no. we do know for -- this is one of the facts we now know, people were singled out because of their beliefs. back to my original line here, mr. kevin kookogey. 29 months,. >> 29 months and counting. >> and counting you haven't been approved yet. >> i have not been approved. >> one of your inquiries you've been asked 90 questions asking to you provide a list of your members and donor, the political affiliation of your men