pat has cooperated. the committee has had the opportunity to ask him plenty of questions and to dig into this. i think what happened maybe was yesterday after the bombshell that cassidy dropped about president trump grabbing the steering wheel of the car and being this altercation, and then, you know, later we find out it was an egg, you know, the secret service pushed back and said they'll testify under oath, when members of the committee were asked on this network, why didn't they ask about that incident, they both -- adam schiff and mr. raskin didn't have an answer for that question. why didn't they dig deeper? so maybe they're trying to cover their bases a little better. the committee should have done all this stuff prior to this point in time. pat has done the right thing, he's cooperated, given them testimony. he's done everything correctly up to this point. they had plenty of opportunity. so now i think maybe they're up against it, and the committee had a big egg yesterday with this secret service

and mark looked up and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of and very clearly said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood's going to be on your f-ing hands, this is getting out of control, i'm going down there. >> pat cipollone weighed in at one point i remember saying that letter this guy wants to send, that letter is a murder suicide pact. it's going to damage everyone who touches it, and we should have nothing to do with that letter. >> pat cipollone intervened when he was meeting without his knowledge which was strictly against white house policy. mr. cipollone told mr. clark to stand down and he didn't. >> so a lawyer familiar with cipollone's thinking telling cnn that he'll probably agree to a transcribed interview but limited to specific topics to avoid privilege issues. okay, what does that exactly mean? we're going to answer that because i'm not sure what that means. i'm not sure elie honing who i'll have here in a minut

mark looked up and said he doesn't want to do anything pat. pat said something to the effect of and very clearly, said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood will be on your eff'ing hands. this is getting out of control. i'm going down there. >> i remember saying that letter this guy wants to send that letter is a murder/suicide pact. it will damage every one that touches it. we should have nothing to do with that letter. >> pat said he intervened when he heard mr. clark was meeting with the president about legal matters without his knowledge. >> lawyer is telling cnn he will probably agree to a tran scribed interview but limited to specific topics to avoid privileged issues. i want you to listen to this. this is just moments ago. this is liz cheney. she's speaking at the reagan library. watch. >> we have to choose because republicans cannot both be loyal to donald trump and loyal to the constitution. >> she said it out loud. now a republican party that's knuckled unde

so, pat cipollone knows that the washington d. c. grand jury is operating about six months behind the january six committee's investigation. so, if he tries to fight this subpoena, he might be facing another one. six months from now. with no way out from that one. joining us now is democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, a member of the house select committee investigating the january 6th attack on the capitol. he served as lead impeachment manager in the second impeachment trial of donald trump. thank you very much for joining us tonight. it seemed to me the speed of the cipollone subpoena, the day after that testimony yesterday -- seems to indicate that this was a plan, that you would get this testimony were passed cipollone's in the thick of it, all the way through the testimony, which clearly justifies the subpoena sent today. >> pat cipollone is a material witness. he has a huge volume of relevant evidence. and he was there at every level of each of these assaults on democracy and the rule of law. so, he would know a lo

but i'm confident it was pat that was there.ber pat saying something to the effect of mark, we need to do something more. they're calling for the vice president to be f'ing hung. mark responded something to the effect of you heard him. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is efing crazy. we need to do something more. briefly stepped into mark's office and he said something to the effect of he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. knowing what i heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the hang mike pence chants in the lobby of the office and mark's response i understood their to be the rioters and the capitol. they were chanting for the vice president to be hung. >> what did you think what you heard that? >> it was astonishing. you may not agree with mike pence politics. but the the fact of the matter it's internal discussions happening in the white house. in the people's house about someone coming forward like pat cipollone. i kno

but i'm confident it was pat that was there. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be f-ing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of you heard him, pat. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is f-ing crazy. we need to be doing something more. briefly stepped into mark's office and when mark had said something to the effect of he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong, knowing what i had heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the hang mike pence chants in the lobby of our office and then mark's response, i understood there to be the rioters in the capitol that were chanting for the vice president to be hung. >> let me pause here on this point. rioters chanted hang mike pence, the president of the united states, donald trump, said that quote, mike deserves it. and that those rioters were not doing anything wrong. this is

pat cipollone, where are you? >> there's certainly an argument to be made that pat cipollone's conversations with president trump could be covered by executive privilege. right? >> yes, though he is the white house lawyer. he's the institution's lawyer, not the president's lawyer. now, there are certain conversations you're having about certain things just like mark meadows. the committee has not said he has no privilege. they just said you don't have blanket privilege and you don't have privilege if you're discussing a criminal act. you can't hide criminality. the committee is trying to build a pyramid of intent and corruption of trump. what did they so today? three different campaign lawyers said we're out of this. >> trump campaign lawyers. >> no, we're done. we're done. what you're doing now is illegal. we're done. they passed it off on the private lawyers. they have shown some of pat cipollone's deputies saying we think this is crazy. other lawyers in the white house counsel's market. today, they had mark mea

. >> i had a prooifrt conversation with pat cipollone on the 3rd or the 4th, that pat was concerned it would look like we were obstructing justice or obstructing the electoral college count. i apologize for probably not being very firm with my legal terms here, but that it would look like we were obstructing what was happening on capitol hill, and he was also worried that it would look like we were inciting a riot oren co encouraa riot at the capitol. >> is that the closest we'll get to pat cipollone actually testifying? >> probably, but it's an important moment in itself, because one of the crucial moments here is what did the people involved here, starting with the president, know what was illegal? you know, did they headmake a g faith effort to count the election honestly, but pat cipollone understood exactly what the risks were here, and the thing that we're really missing is what conversations did he have with president trump? presumably he said the same thing to trump, you are violating the law if you do what you appear to be doing, and the fact that trump was warned that, if he

>> that i'm aware of, mark, ivanka, jared kushner, eric, pat cipollone, pat sylvan, those are people i'm aware of. >> do you know why they felt it necessary to release a statement? >> i believe kayleigh mcenany as well. from what i understood at the time, and from what the reports were coming in, there is a large concern of 25th amendment potentially being invoked and there were concerns what would happen in the senate if it was the 25th was invoked. so the primary reason i had heard other than, you know, we did not do enough on the 6th, need a stronger message out there and condemn this, otherwise it will be your legacy, secondary reason to that was think about what might happen in the final 15 days of your presidency if we don't do this. there's already talk about invoking the 25th amendment, you need this covered. >> the president ultimately delivered the remarks, he did not ad lib much. recited them, without significant alterations except one. even then on january 7, 2021, the day after the attack on the u.s. capitol, the president still could not bring himself to say "this elect

but i'm confident it was pat that was there. a pat— confident it was pat that was there.ark— the vice president to be hung." and mark responded something to the effect _ mark responded something to the effect of. — mark responded something to the effect of, "you heard it, pat, he think— effect of, "you heard it, pat, he think mike — effect of, "you heard it, pat, he think mike deserves it, he doesn't think— think mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong." to which— think they're doing anything wrong." to which pat said, "this is crazy, we need — to which pat said, "this is crazy, we need to— to which pat said, "this is crazy, we need to do something more," briefly— we need to do something more," briefly stepping into mark's office. when _ briefly stepping into mark's office. when mark said something to the effect _ when mark said something to the effect of— when mark said something to the effect of "he doesn't think they are doing _ effect of "he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong," knowing what i had doing anything wrong," knowing what i h

and mark looked up at him and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of and very clearly said this to mark, something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your effing hands. this is getting out of control. i'm going down there. at that point, mark stood up from the couch with his phone in his hand. he had his glasses on still. he put both of his phones on my desk and said, let me know if jim calls, and they walked out of the dining room. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat, he thinks mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is effing crazy, we need to do something more. briefly stepped into mark's office. mark said something to the effect of he didn't think they're doing anything wrong. knowing what i had h

pat cipollone said it best through hutchinson. that if they go down to the capitol, they will be charged with all sorts of crimes, including some of the ones that liz cheney has been speaking about. the idea of obstructing an official proceeding. trying to defraud the united states. all this comes down to the state of mind. what you knew when you knew it. for the president of the united states to be aware two to three minutes before going on stage that there was an armed crowd of people that had been riled up and believed the election had been stolen based on what he knew to be fraudulent information, his legal exposure is wide open. >> certainly is right now. i want you to watch liz cheney describe a message that a committee witness got from someone in trump's orbit. li listen to this. >> person let many know you have your deposition tomorrow. he wants me to let you know he's thinking about you. he knows you're loyal and you're going to do the right thing when you go in for your deposition. >> textbook shall we say witness test t

this despite warnings from white house counsel pat cipollone. >> mr.ng to the effect of please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with?

and mark said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly, had said this to mark -- something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done, or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your effing hands. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they are literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. >> and mark had responded, something to the effect of, you heard him pat, he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they are doing anything wrong. >> yesterday's hearing is raising new questions about potential legal consequences for the former president and for mark meadows, who is already facing contempt charges after defying the subpoena from the committee. according to cassidy hutchinson's testimony, both meadows and trump were well aware of the possibility of violence on january 6th. she testified trump a new new people in the crowd were armed, yet demanded security be eased to allow more people to attend

him and pat came back, possibly eric herschmann, too.tty sure eric herschmann was there, but i'm -- i'm confident it was pat that was there. i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. and mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat. he thinks mike deserves it. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong, to which pat said something, this is effing crazy, we need to be doing something more. briefly stepped into mark's office, and when mark had said something -- when mark had said something to the effect of he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. knowing what i had heard briefly in the dining room, coupled with pat discussing the hanging mike pence chants in the lobby of our office, and then mark's response, i understood "they're" to be the rioters in the capitol that were chanting for the vice president to be hung. >> let me pause here on this point. as rioters chanted "hangike pence," the president

so, pat, $375,000 for 15%. your sales must be amazing! million in the last 3 years... you got to be kidding. ...between internet and wholesale -- yes. what are your sales last year? what stores are you in? what are your sales last year? sales last year were $2.65 million. and the year before? uh, $2.4 million. so, pat, out of the $2.6 million, what percentage is online? it's -- actually, of that $2.6 million, it was probably about $2.2 million, which is the highest margin portion. you're selling that much stuff online? wow. and what does it cost you to make? the sneaker-slipper styles cost about $5.50. we sell them $24.99 to $29.99, which is about a 400% markup right there. that's a great margin. pat, that $2.6 million you sold last year -- what was your profit on that? about $600,000. so, where are you spending all your money? um... because with that big of margins, you should be making more than $600,000. we do a ton of free shipping at our busiest time, which is holiday, which knocks that margin down significantly. but the problem was,

pat: when did the sign go up? speaker: 1959. pat: and whawas the purpose of putting the sign up?s from coming in. morris kight: you know the issue here is that this restaurant here, barney's beanery, has been here a long time. pat: yes, it has. morris: and they have a sign saying, "fagots, stay out." now it doesn't offend me awfully but it offends everybody else. i think it's sort of funny in a way and i don't need to come here, but a great many people would like to, and they think that this sign comes out of an antique american idea which should have gone out of style along with "[audio gap] stay out," "no mexicans or dogs allowed." and these kinds of things have to go. now what we really would like, mr. rocco, is to have the sign retained, but changed. pat: how would you change it? morris: x out the "stay out" and say "faggots welcome." that, we would consider a victory. pat: you can see an awful lot of people protesting something. what do you think about it? speaker: man, i think it's disgraceful with the sign being up there, such as it is. speaker: i think that damn sign shou

he walked out with pat. of his phones on my desk and said let me know if jim calls, and they walked out and went down to the dining room. >> and on the day after the deadly insurrection with the trump administration now in deep turmoil with cabinet members in active discussions about invoking the 25th amendment and talk of impeachment on capitol hill, trump and his allies were talking pardons. the ex-president bringing up pardons for the rioters as a line for a speech, and both rudy giuliani and mark meadows seeking pardons for themselves. we learned that for the first time today. it's difficult to overstate the historic relevance of hutchinson's testimony, it stands in such stark contrast to everybody else, the trump allies who were stonewalling the committee as well as those who according to the committee, liz cheney at least are not testifying truthfully. vice chair liz cheney ended the hearing by raising the prospect of witness tampering that is ongoing with messages from trump allies to the committee's

you will not hear from pat cipollone.w people that have the privilege, the white house counsel has the privilege -- >> well -- >> i think it would be litigated long past this january 6 commission. >> sure. >> and pat cipollone would have to voluntarily come before the committee, which he's not going to do. liz cheney can talk about pat cipollone and all these great things he may or may not do and kind of hang it out there, but he's not going to show up. he's not going to testify. >> it's not like pat cipollone is a huge fan of the if tpresid at this point. we know he protected him in impeachment, but he whined at some point and cipollone was in these meetings with top justice officials and said, we'll quit. we'll leave. we're not going to stand for this. it would be important to hear from him. they know privately what he would say publicly, they do -- >> attorney general, i would guess. >> pat cipollone wouldn't want to come before the district attorney. >> we heard this campaign commercial from griden who is running for

>> pat was very supportive. pat cipollone throughout these conversations was extremely supportive of the justice department. he was consistent. i think he had an impossible job at that point but he did it well and he always cited the justice department in his discussions. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before he walked out into west exec that morning and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of please make sure that we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy, keep in touch with me, we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> and do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice, or defrauding the electoral count. >> i remember pat saying to him, something to the effect of the march to the capitol, we need to go to the president now. and mark was saying, he doesn't want to do anything, pat, and pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly, had said th

nixon as plastic pat. and if you look at more formal pictures of her, the first pitch of that had, the very first picture that i had up, she can have this very, kind of, stiff smile on her face. but if you look at this picture, of her surrounded by these children -- this is a diplomatic -- this is a party for the children off the diplomatic corps -- you can see the genuine affection. she liked people. and people like her. and because of this sense of warmth, she really wanted to open the white house up to different groups of people and she was especially interested in making children feel welcome. now the picture that you see up here is a picture with pat in -- with pat and michael newsome, who is the -- he was the postal or trial for muscular dystrophy in 1972. no, in her biography off her mother, julie dixon tells the story of one of these visits by a child and mrs. nixon was telling the child that you, know, this was a home, and it was everybody's home, but she lived there, and a little boy said, well,

same goes for pat cipollone, the pat who is under subpoena to appear before the committee. cipollone is consistently portrayed counseling against every bad act under scrutiny frrks mark meadows to the former president, going to the capitol from the inflammatory content in his speech to his refusal to call off the riots. cassidy hutchinson testified, he said, quote, we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable. the former president certainly wanted to go to the capitol and was furious when told he could not go. both the secret service and former white house staffer tony orr nadeau have since disputed ms. hutchinson's account that the former president grabbed the steering wheel. the agency saying it will need the agents in question to testify under oath. attorneys for cassidy hutchinson provided cnn a statement which reads in part, ms. hutchinson stands by all the testimony she provided yesterday under oath to the select committee. as for mark meadows and pat cipollone, nothing yet. remember the former president's so-called election defense fund that he said was set

and then white house counsel, pat cipollone, where is white house counsel pat cipollone. action. >> pat cipollone and others are not as brave. >> the fortitude it took. can we just, for a second, focus on her. she's 25, 26 years old now, that means she was, what, 22, 23 years old at the time. to be -- i mean, i don't know about you guys, but when i was that age, i was certainly not as self-aware, poised, hard headed as she clearly absolutely is. for her to actually go and do this, to put herself out there, she has to have personal security and watch pat cipollone, who was how many layers above her in the white house at the time. >> for what it's worth, mick mulvaney, the former white house chief of staff. >> or acting white house chief of staff. just tweeting a few minutes -- >> tweeting a few minutes ago that one thing is clear in my mind, meadows will get indicted for his failure to appear and my guess is that he ultimately shows. for whatever that is worth, it's a sign that even among these people who are kind of, you know, somewhat in trump world, the mindset, this is

and it raises this important question, who else did pat cipollone say that to? think it's hard to believe that the only person he told was a then 24-year-old staffer. did cipollone say that to mark meadows? did he say it to donald trump? realistically the only way we will find that out is from pat cipollone but he pretty clearly is not going to be testifying in the committee, he doesn't want to. the committee doesn't seem to have the political will to try to force him. prosecutors could, they have much stronger subpoenas and they have much better ability to go into court to try to force him. john, the contrast here between an experienced d.c. veteran, a powerful person like pat cipollone, many others, mark meadows who refuse to testify and cassidy hutchinson, this young professional who did something extraordinarily courageous and patriotic yesterday, it was hard to miss that. >> courageous testifying before the committee and before the country given what liz cheney told us at the end of the hearing, what she says she is seeing evidence of possible witness tampe

>> pat was very supportive. pat cipollone, throughout these conversations, was extremely supportive of the justice department. he was consistent. i think he had an impossible job at that point, but he did it well, and he always sided with the justice department in these discussions. >> i saw mr. cipollone right before i walked out that morning, and mr. cipollone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the capitol, cassidy. keep in touch with me. we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> and do you remember which crimes mr. cipollone was concerned with? >> in the days leading up to the 6th, we had conversations about potentially obstructing justice or defrauding the electoral count. >> i remember pat saying to him, something to the effect of, if the rioters got to the capitol, we need to go down and see the president now. mark looked up and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pat. pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly,

mark looked up at him and said: he does not want to do anything, pat. pat said something to the effect of, and very clearly, said this to mark, somhing to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood's going to be on your hands. this is getting out of control, i'm going down there. >> extraordinary testimony. we heard that meadows himself asked for a pardon. we reached out to mr. meadows' attorneys for a response that we have not heard back yet. >> there was one explosive disclosure after another. anything else you would add that was noteworthy in the way of accusations? how are the former president and the others around him responding to all of this? >> some republicans have responded with a simple! but it is important to note the president has been responding. here are quotes he put on social media. he set of hutchinson i hardly know who that person is. on the limo anecdote, the fact he assaulted a security aide, he said that is a fake story and he said there is no cross-examination for this so-called witnes

unlike john dean, we have not heard from pat cipollone.with a closed door and not agreed to testify publicly, drawing criticism from the panel's vice chair. >> we think the american people deserve to hear from mr. cipollone, personally. >> reporter: the analysts say cipollone, so far, hasn't gone out on a limb like dean did. they believe he should have contacted other cabinet members about trump's behavior or should have resigned. >> you are the white house counsel, have you quite a solemn duty to not only advise the president but to protect the office of the presidency. >> analysts say one thing that adds to the enormous pressure in a big scandal is many don't have the background for it, a former prosecutor said white house counsel don't come in the job with experience in cell cases, often they're trained for policy issues. they may have to act as a whistleblower in a cell matter, wolf, that is a different game entirely. >> certainly is. brian todd reporting. thank you have been, very much. let's discuss what we just heard john dean is jo

pat . are doing anything wrong. >> she also said she witnessed evidence of the president's temple temper including damage to the dining room after bill barr's declaration that there was no widespread fraud. >> there was catchup dripping down the wall and a shattered porcelain plate. >> a series of terror attacks that are directed to hutchinson saying he barely knew hutchinson and to mind her account of the altercation with the secret service and about the january 6 rally same i did not want to request that we make room for people with guns to watch my speech, who would ever want that? >> joining us now is denver riggle men who previously advised the select committee and just hearing the words, we are going to get charged with every crime imaginable being repeated by cassidy hutchinson, what are your initial reactions ? >> first of all, how brave to talk yesterday and they were talking about witness tampering but the fact is the type of pressure on gop individuals working in the ecosystem is

but this is washington. >>> ahead, the country needs a pat moment.'s trying to pressure the former council to testify to do so at a public hearing. the minions are coming to ihop. with an all new menu you're going to love. ♪ ♪ excuse me! enjoy the minions menu at ihop. for a limited time kids eat free! and catch minions: the rise of gru. ♪ three times the electorlytes and half the sugar. ♪ pedialyte powder packs. feel better fast. so this is the meta portal plus. a smart video calling device that makes working from home work. a 12-megapixel lens makes sure your presentation is crystal clear. and smart camera auto pans and zooms to keep you perfectly in frame. oh, and it syncs with your calendar. plus, with zoom, microsoft teams, and webex, you'll never miss a meeting. and neither will she. now that's a productive day. meta portal: make working from home work for you. it's time to get outdoorsy. it's hot! and wayfair has got just what you need. we need a rug. that's the one. yeah. save on all your outdoorsy funiture and decor at wayfair. >>> the janua

trump's former white house counsel, pat sip loney.mittee is certain that donald trump does not want mr. cipollone to testify here. indeed, our evidence shows that he and his office tried to do what was right. they tried to stop a number of president trump's plans for january 6th. >> where -- what's the status with the committee vis-a-vis cipollone? have you extended a formal invitation to pat cipollone to testify? has he officially rejected that information? has he given any response? >> i'm not going to talk about the specifics of a witness we could hear from, but what i can tell you, and you've heard this time and time again, jake, a thousand interviews that we've conducted as part of our process. so, we've gathered information, we're piecing this together. we look forward to sharing the information that we can with the american public. but i think it's fair to say that we've talked to, you know, dozens of individuals in and around the white house at the time in the hearing that i led last week, we heard specifically testimony from

she's showing pat nixon pat nixon wants to know what's in storage and how they get furniture. and is it expensive and stuff like that? that's sort of the that well, and she and her daughter had just gotten married so they had also given away a lot of their furniture for julian david's apartment. so she was also kind of law in between furniture but yes ever the frugal frugal housewife definitely. well, we have another great question from the from the crowd and how does public opinion or interest shape the historical preservation efforts of the first ladies? i'll take i'll take a step at that catherine. i think it can influence it in two ways and i'll speak about the way i think it influenced mrs. kennedy one was that she was always concerned as well. she should be about any taint of scandal that that might attach itself to acquiring money acquire using congressional money acquiring furniture. how much was being paid for it? so she always knew that there was a cutting edge there that if you slipped over just as anything a president does or a member of the family does and certain

. >> i called pat cipollone. >> mr. trump's former white house counsel pat cipollone. >> a former white house counsel, white house counsel at the time, is a big deal. they know a lot and they know what's legally right and wrong. and they're supposed to be advising the president. and everyone knows that. so, how would hearing directly from him have an impact or would it have an impact on those still supporting donald trump? >> i think his is the most important testimony that could be gotten by the committee. there's no chance you're going to see him raise his hand before a camera the way cassidy hutchinson was brave enough to do. i trust cassidy hutchinson's testimony word for word. i know her, i served with her. the lines she quoted pat cipollone says, i can hear him saying that. i worked with him only about eight months, but it sounds like him. he is going to be able to confirm if that is what he in fact said and why he said it. i would expect some level of cooperation. john dean could speak to this better than me. he

pat cipollone and pat philbin clearly do not want to come forward.think what was so striking today was not only did you have the quote about every crime imaginable, but you have pat cipollone on january 6th running in to mark meadows' office saying something needs to be done or the blood is going to be on your f'ing hands. >> why does cipollone think the blood isn't on his hands too? why is this 26-year-old former aide braver than him? anyway, we have to go. jamie, carrie, thank you so much. former president trump is now weighing in on today's explosive testimony from hutchinson. how his statement kriblths what we heard and know from the former aide who worked down the haul from trump's oval office. (vo) get verizon business unlimited from the network businesses rely on. like manny. event planning with our best plan ever. (manny) yeah, that's what i do. (vo) with 5g ultra wideband in many more cities, you get up to 10 times the speed at no extra cost. get verizon business unlimited from the network businesses rely on. >>> we're back in our politics l

a lot to deal with for pat cipollone. donald trump said this about pat cipollone when cipollone was preparing for trump's first impeachment trial. >> he's the strong, silent type. strong, he's very strong, silent. great job you've done. >> reporter: but a new account from former top white house aide cassidy hutchinson portrays cipollone as anything but silent as rioters attacked the capitol on january 6. hutchinson told the house panel investigating the insurrection that cipollone, then trump's white house counsel, tried repeatedly to get trump to stop the violence and to keep trump from going to the capitol, paraphrasing scipollone's warning. >> we're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen. >> reporter: the 56-year-old cipollone is in the middle of a classic washington political brawl as he negotiates with the house committee over how he will give testimony about his actions on and before january 6th. by all accounts he's always tried to avoid the spotlight, described in a "washi

that's not up to pat cipollone. and let's remember the committee cannot force him as a practical measure. if they had to go to court, they don't have enough time to get that done in the next couple weeks. >> but why not testify? we already know he threatened to resign. he's somebody who kept the guardrails up in the white house. why to you think he's holding back. >> it looks like this is yet another person from donald t trump's orbit who is trying to have it both ways. he's trying to thread the n needle. we know in certain instances, pat cipollone did the right thing. when donald trump was try ing t install a loyalist to take over d oorks j, cipollone stood on the right side of that. he said i'm knot going to stand for that. at the psalm time, he doesn't want to put himself out there and alienate any of his friends. we don't have sinners and saints here. there are shades of gray. >> tomorrow we'll hear from former doj officials. what are you listening for? >> so the attempt to take over doj was really all about val

and mark looked up at him and said he doesn't want to do anything, pat. and pat said something to the effect of -- and very clearly said this remark -- something to the effect of, mark, something needs to be done or people are going to die and the blood is going to be on your f-ing hands. this is getting out of control, i'm going down there. >> pat cipollone weighed in at one point. i remember saying that letter this guy wants to send, that letter is a murder-suicide pact. and we should have nothing to do with that letter. >> pat cipollone intervened when he heard he was meeting with mr. clark. mr. cipollone and mr. fillben like mr. rosen told mr. clark to stand down and he didn't. >> so j, john, cipollone knows lot. he was in the room for multiple conversations. what specific questions does he need to answer? >> that's a devastating take on all the questions that he needs to be asked and asked what he recommended, why he recommended it, was he involved it in any way? did he declare publicly somehow he didn't want any part of this? how did he tell people

the panel clearly believes that pat cipollone is a central figure in their investigation.itnesses say he pushed back on the fake electors scheme and cassidy hutchinson told the committee it was cipollone who warned that if trump went to the capitol, quote, we're going to be charged with every crime imaginable. cipollone did meet with the panel informally back in april but has been reluctant to do more. now a source is telling our dana bash he might agree to at least a limited transcribed interview. >>> first on cnn a defiant cassidy hutchinson standing by her testimony despite denials by the secret service, the former top aide to chief of staff mark meadows told the panel that trump was so unhinged, to determined to join his armed supporters at the capitol that he tried to grab the wheel of his limo and lujd at an agent's throat. moments ago we did hear from the january 6 committee co-chair liz cheney who did an interview with abc's jonathan karl, her first interview since that dramatic hearing. >> i think that what cassidy hutchinson did was an unbelievable example of bra

pat was upset we would mess -- sorry about my legal terms here. that it would look like we were obstructing what was happening on capitol hill. he was also worried it would look like we were inciting a riot or encouraging a riot at-capitol. >> i mean, is that the closest we're going to get to pat cipollone testifying? >> probably. but it's enormously important in and of itself. because one of the crucial issues is what did thepeople in vauchblt here, including the president know what was illegal. was this a good-faith effort or did they know they were committing crimes. if you listen on the statutes she was referring to, it's exactly right. pat cipollone understood exactly what the risks were here and the thing we're really missing is what kapgdss did he have with president trump? presumably he said the same thing to president trump. you're violating the law if you continue to do what you're doing. and the fact he was is extremely important. >> it seems like pat cipollone was running around like chicken little saying look, we're going to get charg

. >> i remember pat saying to him something to the effect of, the rioters have gotten to the capitol, we need to go down and see the president now. and mark looked up at him and said, "he doesn't want to do anything, pat." >> reporter: trump was even unmoved by his supporters chanting "hang mike pence." >> i remember pat saying something to the effect of, mark, we need to do something more, they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. mark had responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat, he thinks mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. to which pat said something, this is effing crazy. >> reporter: the committee pointed out, it's almost exactly what trump told me six weeks after he left the white house. >> hang mike pence? >> because it's common sense, jon, it's common sens that you're supposed to protect -- how can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote? to congress? >> reporter: at the end of the hearing today, cassidy hutchinson was asked about her own boss, mark meadows, an

s up next. >>> trump white house counsel pat cipollone subpoenaed.er declining repeated requests from the january 6th committee nor an on the record interview, he is now being compelled to testify under oath. >>> president biden meeting with allies right now on the heels of nato with a direct threat and issuing a warning about china. we'll have a live report ahead of the news conference with the president a little later this morning. >>> and breaking news overnight, as israel's parliament dissolves, paving the way for a fifth election in less than four years.

when the witness talks here about pat, or pat cipollone, that's who she's talking about, the white houseo's the top lawyer in the white house. >> did you have a private consolation -- i have a private conversation with pat, in the afternoon before. pat was concerned with the obstructing justice architectural college count so -- [inaudible] i remember it was shocking. he was talking about capitol hill, and he was also worried that it would look like a riot, or encouraging a riot to march on the capitol. >> on january 3rd, mr. cipollone had approached me, knowing that marked had raised the prospect of going up to the capitol on january 6th. mr. cipollone and i had a brief private conversation where he said to me, we need to make sure this doesn't happen. this would be illegally terrible idea for us. we have serious legal concerns if we go up to the capitol that day. and he then urged me to continue relaying that to mr. meadows, because it's my understanding that mr. cipollone thought that mr. meadows was indeed pushing this along with the president. >> and we understand, this hutchinson, y

to which pat said something, "this is effing crazy." the committee pointed out it's almost exactly what trump told me six weeks after he left the white house. they were saying "hang mike pence." >> because it's -- it's common sense, jon. it's common sense that you're supposed to protect -- how can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right, how can you pass on a fraudulent vote to congress? >> reporter: and at the end of the hearing today, cassidy hutchinson was asked about her own boss mark meadows, and about rudy giuliani, who had told her january 6th would be a great day. she said both wanted presidential pardons. >> miss hutchinson, did white house chief of staff mark meadows ever indicate that he was interested in receiving a presidential pardon related to january 6th? >> mr. meadows did seek that pardon, yes, ma'am. >> and jon karl who was on the air with me all afternoon back with us tonight. and jon, former president trump responding to today's testimony, saying, quote, he hardly knows who cassidy hutchinson is. jon, the com