smith did? no doubt in my mind.ed like a big box of puzzle pieces. >> prosecutors, pete -- and brent -- were in charge of evaluating the case against byron. and they knew it was controversial, from the start. >> when brent and i got involved in it, the e-mails started. the phone calls. castigating us for taking this. after all, doesn't a homeowner have a right to defend his dwelling? i didn't argue with people. i just said, well, just stay open and let the evidence come out. and then, let's see if you hold that same view. >> after looking at all the evidence, the prosecutors believed there was a strong case. >> the moment nick broke the window and entered into that house, didn't byron smith, then have the right to defend himself? >> yes. yes, he did. but that's not what he did. he went way, way beyond defending himself. >> that grand jury in minnesota agreed. in april of 2013, five months after the shootings, byron smith was indicted on two counts of first-degree murder. now, there would be a trial, in the case ever

you said jack smith hit back hard. i would agree with that with andrew, this is a persuasive court pleading. a model of clarity, of brevity, of persuasion. it is only ten pages, double spaced. it's a quick, easy read. i would urge people to read it, because it is clear. jack smith and his team don't mince words. they don't pull punches. and i was really kind of excited when i read it, because it feels like a sign of the prosecution to come. and i think that they are going to continue to insist on a timely trial date, and in fact on page one of this pleading they highlight how the trump defense team failed in really, in its most important endeavor, when they filed their pleading on july 10th. they said judge, don't set a trial date. one of the first things jack smith pointed out, is the speedy trial act says, the judge shall set a date certain for the trial to begin. so they really just sort of embarrass the trump defense team's request and they don't let up for the ten pages. so i am encouraged that this is what we can

when a jack smith's indictment comes out, we learn stuff. we're never gonna be able to predict everything that's in it before comes out. andrew weissmann and barbara mcquade, thank you for starting off our important discussions tonight. coming, up harvard law professor laurence tribe joins us next to consider the question of exactly which crimes jack smith's grand jury might include in the next round of trump indictments. professor laurence tribe is next. only at vanguard, you're more than just an investor, you're an owner. our financial planning tools and advice can help you prepare for today's longer retirement. hi mom. that's the value of ownership. my most important kitchen tool? my brain. so i choose neuriva plus. unlike some others, neuriva plus is a multitasker supporting 6 key indicators of brain health. to help keep me sharp. neuriva: think bigger. somedays, i cover up because of my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. now i feel free to bare my skin, thanks to skyrizi. ♪(uplifting music)♪ ♪nothing is everything♪ i'm celebrating my

garland chose smith because smith is on ethical, he is dishonest and treacherous. ran the republican division it was jack smith who signed off on the irs unconstitutional attack on the tea party groups under obama his wiretapped conversation between target and the investigation representative randy pointed out. he's wired attorney client conversations. smith was brutally admonished by his federal judge in this case. all the so-called evidence was thrown out in the judge said i wish i could do a lot more to you then just kill the evidence, so-called evidence that you acquire. he is constantly piercing attorney-client privilege as he's done against president trump with the help of an obama lawyer who served as a judge. he was the same tactic against virginia governor bob mcdonnell and use them the grand jury and took this information with trump goes to the grand jury, he owns the grand jury, no witness has no right to a lawyer they spoonfeed the stuff to the grand jury, look what his own lawyer said and what he said to his own lawyer all what is supposed to be protec

the president's lawyers sitting down with special counsel jack smith at smith's office in washington, the meeting lasting a bit more than an hour. trump himself later describing the meeting as "productive," saying his team told smith "in detail that i did nothing wrong, was advised by many lawyers, and than an indictment of me would only further destroy our country." it's been 11 days since trump received a target letter from the special counsel, a clear indication an indictment was imminent. his attorneys today hoping to convince smith to change course. no word on exactly what was discussed, or how the special counsel reacted to their entreaties. >> david: as pierre just reported, they did meet today with jack smith about the potential indictment coming, still to come, on january 6th, again, potential, until we actually see that. instead, what's happened tonight is this super ceding indictment, new and serious charges involving the classified documents at mar-a-lago. and you have the key line here. >> reporter: well, david, it puts trump, clearly, according to the special counsel, mi

when a jack smith's indictment comes out, we learned stuff. we're never gonna be able to predict everything that's in it before comes out. andrew weissmann and barbara mcquade, thank you for starting off our important discussions tonight. coming, up harvard law professor laurence tribe joins us next to consider the question of exactly which crimes jack smith's grand jury might include in the next round of trump indictments. professor laurence tribe is next. tribe i next family cookouts! [blowing] [dice roll] ♪ playing games! [party chatter] dancin in the par—! tv: try tide power pods with 85% more tide in every pod. who needs that much more tide? (crashing sounds) everyone's gonna need more tide. it's a mess out there. that's why there's 85% more tide in every power pod. -see? -baby: ah. moderate to severe eczema still disrupts my skin. despite treatment it disrupts my skin with itch. it disrupts my skin with rash. but now, i can disrupt eczema with rinvoq. rinvoq is not a steroid, topical, or injection. it's one pill, once a day. many taking

smith: thank you.i'm pleased to yield two minutes to the gentlewoman from texas, ms. garcia. the chair: the gentlewoman is recognized. ms. garcia: thank you, mr. speaker. thank you to my colleague and friend and to all the members of the armed services committee. for allowing me to encourage my colleagues to support amendment 723 and 731 of the ndaa. amendments 723 offers whistleblower protections in investigations considering evidence. we certainly want to protect those who are courageous enough to come forward including preventing undue, adverse and retaliatory personnel actions by their employers within d.o.d. amendment 731 is beleavement for all amendment. this commonsense, plain and simple amendment will add the definition of family members in beleavement policies to include nonbiological family members such as foster and adopted children. again, this is commonsense and goes to just keeping families together at a very time of need. we do not want families in a situation where they lost a loved one

how does that affect jack smith's determination of how he proceeds? can he ledgely, as you said before we talked to lisa reuben, can he argue to move one case faster than the other? >> that's a really good question. i think yes he can. these cases are essentially on their own tracks. obviously the defendant can't be in two courtrooms at the same time, okay, so judges do take into account other courtrooms and what's going on in other courtrooms for scheduling purposes. but i think the big question once an indictment comes down in the january 6th matter is, who's the judge? that's often a very big question in a criminal case. it really depends -- a lot depends on that. and then in d.c. you have a lot of judges who have prior experience with donald trump. i think that's -- these people in january 6th cases, i think that's so important. because a typical judge -- you pick a judge anywhere in this country, a typical federal judge and typical defendant, they usually give the defendant a lot of rope to take their time and learn and conduct their own investig

>> it really depends on what jack smith's second 4 motion. to continue where katie left off, it's basically a provision in cipa that more or less has you lay out for the court, here's the documents, then you'll have the response by the defense, so on. so depending how intricate they get with respect to the section 4 motion of the cipa. that's going to determine what's a reasonable trial schedule. i think that jack smith has thought as december 11th as being reasonable, having calculated everything he has. one of the things i think that he cannot necessarily control which the hearing is happening, donald trump's attorneys are dragging their feet in getting the type of clearance they need to get the documents in. it's almost as if they say, hey, we can't look at this stuff because they haven't given us clearance. therefore, they're dragging their feet. barring anything else, it's clear that a december 11th trial date is realistic. are you going to get that? probably not, because there's going to be a lot of back and forth. but i do think we cou

smith: thank you, mr. chairman. i'm pleased to yield three minutes to the gentleman from massachusetts, mr. moulton, the ranking member on the strategic forces subcommittee. the chair: the gentleman from massachusetts is recognized. mr. moulton: thank you, ranking member smith. i'm proud to support the 2024 national defense authorization act as passed out of the armed services committee. while this bill includes some provisions not in line with democratic priorities, it represents a truly bipartisan product that was overwhelmingly supported by our committee. i'd like to thank chairman rogers and lamborn for working with me on our markup process, particularly on critical areas such as restoring funding for critical national nuclear security administration efforts on nonproliferation at national defense -- missile defense policy. it adds critical oversight to the nuclear weapons modernization and while i firmly believe this world will be a better, safer place for our children without nuclear weapons, the reality is th

i think that smith already has the goods. so, i suspect that we are gonna see it a lot closer than two weeks. and, you know, this is not rocket science. i mean, a federal judge, judge david carter, a very respected judge in california, has already said based on what the january 6th that tints committee uncovered, that it's more likely than not that donald trump committed very serious felonies. >> tim heaphy, is it possible, given the timing here of the target letter, that jack smith could be delivering indictments of donald trump within the next few days, or week, or so, but that the possible discussion of bernie kerik's material two weeks from now could be part of an additional element of that january 6th investigation, with additional defendants being named down the road? >> yes, lawrence, exactly. the department of justice rules provide that you cannot use a grand jury to investigate strictly a case that's already been indicted. you can use the grand jury to investigate potentially superseding charges, additional defendant

how might the microscope that jack smith and his team?e is a team of lawyers working on this. how might they be affected by the microscope and the scrutiny that they are under right now? how does it affect the decision-making? >> i think that they are more affected in their decision-making by understanding the significance of potentially bringing not just one, because they've already brought one but a second criminal indictment against the former president. particularly during the actual election season. while he is the front runner. my own experience when i was at the department both in the u.s. attorney's office and in d.c. and where we call main justice in the national security division, is i was so busy all day every day into the wee hours. i was not consuming all the news where people are pontificating constantly and commenting it's criticizing and speculating, it sattre. we were pretty much zeroed in on our investigation and making our decisions based on the guidelines and principles for federal prosecution. but also recognizing the

jack smith aware of that, too.vidence of trump's state of mind. >> i think it's essential. as you read that last quote about being able to make the case in the public, i think that's the difference between direct and circumstantial evidence. we might be able to infer from the circumstances that trump knew that he had lost the election. when his own statements verbatim can be used at trial, that can be more powerful. the law says circumstantial is just as good as direct evidence. i think for a jury, it is -- it feels stronger and they can be convinced more beyond a reasonable doubt. this element of willfulness is an essential element of the crime. it's hard in fraud cases. as a judge will say in instructions, we cannot read another person's mind. you have to look at what they said and what they did so that the jury can draw reasonable inferences. if he keeps saying, i believed it, that could be a valid defense. it reminds me of the episode of "seinfeld" where george is trying to coach jerry into beating a polygraph.

the thing we can discern from smith is he's true to his word. in november when he was appointed by garland to take over these two investigations, he promised to move expeditiously. and, you know, that had to do with getting this under the wire before we got into the 2024 presidential campaign. now we have over the course of really four to six weeks i think, we have two potential -- we have one indictment that's already in books and another appears inevitable. so he has moved very quickly. i think the outer edge of his decision process here is likely to be early august, because that is when fulton county, investigating georgia, investigating a lot of the same events, is expected to move ahead with her indictment. and what form toer federal prosecutors tell me, and i've heard folks on your show say, is that moving simultaneously or after that would be dangerous for smith because you don't want to have witnesses whose testimony varies even slightly from the testimony that they're giving him. that could create problems for him and opportunities for

the smith team clearly busy.maya wiley, thanks for being here. >> thank you. >> appreciate it. >>> coming up, we dig into what an unrelated yet related legal document. talked about whether there would be accountability for all these other people who tied to steal your vote. new charges hitting some of trump's fraudulent electors. >> that was a lie. they weren't the dually elected and qualified electors and, each of the defendants knew it. >>> but first, something that's important. how do societies deal with attempted coups? what is happening when we have autocrats in our midst? what does it mean when there are extra doses of accountability? next. next like dynamic charting and risk-reward analysis help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that

hyde-smith, 1064, peters, 1043. warner 1053. the presiding officer: the question is on the amendments. mr. reed: i request the yeas and nays. the presiding officer: is there a sufficient second? th a

jack smith could go narrow. he could start with one indictment and issue subsequent or superseding indictments. and that will be a very big moment for accountability when we see the first january 6th indictment which earned by the grand jury. >> joyce, let us say you are one of trump's lawyers tonight. what would you be telling him? >> well, i would be telling him stop talking in public. doj is recording you. doj will use your own words against you as evidence if you continue the process of confessing on television. you know, late last week, we heard the former president acknowledge that he had retained documents in his possession. well, doj can check that off their list of things that they have to prove at trial. they will just play the former president's own words for the jury when the case gets to that point. and that's how that'll proceed. this is even more problematic for trump and the january 6th case. nothing will happen if it continues to talk about the facts here, and it only favors the government. >> a

jack smith is ready to go. he knows the political time clock is ticking, not because politics will influence his decisions here, but because they will influence both his ability to act and his ability to get the case to trial in advance of the election. we are, i think, in go time for jack smith and his team. >> jackie, walk us through -- take us through your reporting in the days and weeks that followed the election, january 6th itself, and those days that followed, and what we now know was going on behind the scenes at the white house, the pressure campaign, the slates of fake electors, conversations with mike pence, including on the morning of january 6th. remind us of how we got to this spot. >> yeah, peter, there are a lot of parallel threads here within this segment of jack smith's special counsel investigation into the events that led up to the january 6th insurrection and the attack on the capitol. we do know in recent weeks in particular jack smith has been asking a lot of questions about that december

attorney's office in brooklyn and recommended smith as the story goes sue who in turn recommended smithan garlands. out of all of the people he could've chosen in america they go to the hague to bring back smith. because he is a hitman. judge barrow was a judge who oversaw all of these motions that were filed by the trump lawyers and the government. she rolled one 100% against donald trump. one 100% for the government. she has since retired but the damage is done. she worked for former democrats editor on the hill patrick leahy for 10 years. that was her claim to fame. she of course was appointed by obama. let's go through several more of these people. we would gentleman by the name of david is typically the chief litigator fort smith he has known him a long time but former special counsel to fbi director james comey i'm trying to show you the incestuous relationship these people coming out of main justice the u.s. attorney's office, mostly democrats, democrat operatives they've known each other for decades. so have for many of the judges they come out of main justice and so forth and s

jack smith, quote, can walk and chew gum at the same time. so the fact that katelynn has this reporting about the former governor of arizona being called in as a witness we're likely to see that, see this indictment shortly and then we will see jack smith continue to do interviews. >> when you say they reached out to him, does ha mean he has gone to talk or you don't know? >> i asked the question, has he spoken to jack smith -- you go to meet with the investigators or the grand jury, they did not say which, just they reached out, he's been responsive and wants to do the right thing. >> this was reporting i had last week that new witnesses were going before federal prosecutors. so this may be part of an ongoing investigation. one thing i want to know, this may be narrowly focused on donald trump to make it as clean as an investigation and process as it can be. but i would predict his team is going to spin that. once again he's the only person being targeted. i'm brynn gingraseing dindicted. it proves better if there's a conspiracy and going af

if the past is prologue jack smith enjoys multitasking. more than a month after he indicted trump in the documents case we learned the grand jury in florida is still working. it is still investigating. it is still potentially mulling over more indictments in that mar-a-lago documents case. we know trump's codefendant in that case, his aide, walt nauta, we know nauta didn't get a target letter until five days after trump got his. nbc news has reached out to a number of trump allies involved in trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election, and so far we have confirmation that rudy giuliani and lynnwood and mitchell and, scott perry and john eastman, so far we have confirmation that all of those people have not received target letters. again, so far. other individuals like jeffrey clark, who trump tried to appoint as the acting attorney general on january 2021 to help trump overturn the results of the election, mr. clark's spokesman declined to comment. and tonight there's a particular focus on people like jeffrey clark and john eastman and

but the scheme itself will become part of jack smith's case.worth noting how quickly things change because as of 24 hours ago right now, nobody had been charged for anything relating to january 6th and the coup attempt other than the people who physically stormed the capitol or who directly supervised that, directly involved in the physical storming of the capitol. now we have these fake electors charged with fraud crimes and seems quite clear that donald trump is on the road to catching a charge of his own from the federal system. >> yeah. alyssa, the secretary of state brought up something i think maybe gets overlooked here which is that she faced real threats. and there was an anecdote where trump allegedly said that she should be tried for treason and in a white house meeting around the time they were discussing these lies around the election, there were real consequences and threats of violence, even beyond the capitol. >> i think people forget that. i think of cassidy hutchinson, who cooperated with doj, she got many threats to her life.

special counsel jack smith's investigation? is whether or not a jury will convict donald trump of any or all of those 37 felony counts. a particular focus on those under the espionage act. as we speak, there is a separate much more subtle tug-of-war playing out. one that could reshape the future of our american democracy. that is when the actual trial will take place. "the washington post" reports judge cannon appeared skeptical yesterday about trump's request that the trial be delayed until after the 2024 election. she also seemed to be weary of a request from prosecutors that would have proceedings begin this year. let's bring in nbc news correspondent ken dilanian, maya wiley is back with us. you have been following this case. explain the considerations judge cannon is making and whether or not you think she is leaning one way or the other. >> sure. i covered that hearing down in florida which was closed to most people. i would say that the post is right. she seemed to brush aside the notion that because donald trump is runn

should jack smith help him in that? >> so, i don't think jack smith is helping him. i think jack smith is doing his job. because what you have to do, as a prosecutor, when you're indicting a complicated case like this is to make sure that you've nailed everything down before you indict your case. that means you have to talk to all of the witnesses, witnesses who need to testify under oath have to be tendered to the ground jury so that you can lock them down under oath. you have to really make sure that you've heard not only from the witnesses who will make their case and chief, but also from any witnesses who could possibly be defense witnesses. you need to know what they will say, so that you could evaluate whether or not there's a defense. so yes, jack smith has to feel the pressure of the block. none of us are naive. we understand that delay, as donald trump's only strategy here. but, at the same time, smith still has to do his job. and he has been remarkable about compiling this case. and i think the far less time that anyone would've ever estimated he could've h

as much as they need jack smith. because jack smith has something better, he has the notes of trump's lawyer, evan corcoran. he got that because of the exception to the attorney-client privilege that they were used in the commission of a crime, so the feds have trump's lawyer's intricate notes. i think with all the evidence that jack smith has, this is heading towards an ultimate conviction. >> yeah, but dave, you know, the biggest concern a lot of us have is how slowly the wheels of justice can turn. we have a may 2024 trial date. reporting that de oliveira's lawyer is not even barred in the state of florida, let alone in the southern district of florida. do you think we might see a repeat of what we have with walt nauta, this repeated attempt to be able to get local counsel in order to get day olive arraigned in the first place? >> this is the risk jack smith took when he indicted another defendant in this case. he knew that in adding a third defendant, it would slow things down. because when nauta slowed things do

jack smith also continues to focus on the role of fake electors.ore people have been subpoenaed and are set to appear before the grand jury in the month of august. meanwhile, trump longtime loyalist and former white house trade advisor, peter navarro, is publicly defending his former boss, and issuing warnings that sound an awful lot like serious threats. navarro warned of a, quote, civil war as a result of the trump investigations. >> such an unthinkable war breaks out, it will be the democrats fault. the democrat activists and strategists now are driving this nation towards a second civil war, and neither justice nor righteousness on their side. my strong admonition for these democrats, as i appeal to your party, is this. back this anti-democratic -- truck up before it runs over you. >> navarro, of course, is said to stand trial in september after refusing to comply with the subpoena from the january six committee. also this evening, we are learning more about the classified documents investigation. nbc reports 8 search warrants and affidavits we

still, no comment from the special counsel, jack smith.comment when a cnn crew spotted him in d.c. today and asked about the target letter he sent to donald trump. cnn asking whether the special counsel's office is preparing to indict the former president over efforts to overturn the 2020 presidential election here in the united states. several congressional republicans are vowing to support trump despite his growing legal troubles. here's texas congressman troy ne nehls. listen. >> donald trump is going to beat joe biden in 2024 for a second time. why are they doing everything they can to prevent him from being on the ballot in 2024? i'll tell you why. donald trump will win in 2024. the left, they're scared [ bleep ]. >> let's bring in our chief congressional kocorrespondent mu raju. colorful language from the congressman. what more are you hearing from republican lawmakers? >> reporter: yeah, republicans are trying to plot exactly how to respond to the news that donald trump could potentially base his third criminal indictment. you've se

and jack smith is calling his bluff. the jury is now going to hear that tape. hear donald trump chuckling with his buddies as he talks about one of the most sensitive imaginable documents. i mean, we are not talking about appointments for yoga sessions. if we were -- if we were making up a simulation, a test, what would be the most egregious violation of confidential information in the u.s. government. it would be something like plans to attack a foreign nation. that if it fell into the wrong hands would quite clearly put the lives of service men and women in danger. and so, you know, i agree that obviously the coverup, obstruction of justice, the sort of mob boss vibs from donald trump is significant, buff it really comes back to this war plan and jack smith saying that here it is, the jury will hear it. >> pete, i want you to weigh in on what employee four is saying to de oliveira and also now i don't have the rights do what the boss wants me to do, which is to delete the servers. explain. >> yeah, i think that there i

smith 's office has chosen, barb? >> when it comes to conspiracy to defraud the united states, i think you're going to have to show that he knew the fraud was the false claim that the election was stolen. i don't know they're going to be able to work around that. with the obstruction of an official proceeding i don't think you have to know that you actually lost the election there, it's just everything you do with the proceeding. and maybe in the civil rights claim, the deprivation of rights, it's enough that you try to subvert the process. maybe that is the work around if they failed to prove the donald trump actually knew that he had lost the election. there might have been a way to have a jury reach a verdict of guilty on those other two counts without even finding that that is the case. it happens all the time in obstruction of justice charges. a person might say that i am innocent, so i told the person the life for me. the fact that you're innocent is great but the part where you told them to live for you is stil

jack smith knows how to walk and chew gum at the same time.can we learn from just how all encompassing this investigation, as reportedly become? and how close is it to nearing an end. joining us now is former federal prosecutor paul butler, and msnbc legal analyst lisa reuben. lisa, paul, thank you both for being here with us tonight. lisa, this breath of jack smith's investigation, does it indicate to you that we are likely to see a lot of different charges here? or is this just that jack smith is batting every eye and crossing all tees? >> it's literally high to say, symone. certainly, when it came to the records investigation, nobody really knew that the end was coming until we knew that the indictment was coming. in fact, most of us did not even know if there was a grand jury in florida let alone miami until a few days before. so, i think it's really hard to read the tea leaves and know exactly what is coming down the pipe. that said, the breadth of the investigation here is astonishing. and i think one of the things that jack smith and hi

it also tells the story for jack smith as a prosecutor in terms of what was all about. prosecutors have to go where the actual facts take them. once you have those facts, when she had to indictment, your trial, your story is all about selling a narrative. that is going to be a key statue that helps them to sell a very cohesive, very complex narrative to end and higher jury. >> molly, speaking of narratives, trump loves the narrative of being a victim. but the numbers here don't actually lie. trump's legal battles against the federal government aren't likely cases he's faced before. perhaps not even like the ones he may face on a state level. but when he loses out on social media, it is because he wants to shape a narrative that he is being targeted, that he is somehow the victim in all of this. is this a guy who's just simply and denial, or is this part of his grift to raise money off of everything he sees as a grievance? >> he needs to raise a lot of money because these lawyers are expensive. we've seen reporting, especially those in florida lawyers with the security c

>> this is one of the challenges that jack smith is facing.dence that katelyn and paula just laid out, how exactly can i charge this criminally. you can't just say january 6th, or all of this stuff on the january 6th report with hundreds and hundreds of pages. here's what i see as potential charges. first of all, obstruction of a federal proceeding. meaning if the effort was to stop congress from casting the vote, that charge has brought by 300 people who stormed the capitol. that's one possibility. the broadest statute, the brodest position jack smith could take is the conspiracy to defraud the united states of a free and fair election which is a charge that's not been brought many times or capitol rioters but robert mueller actually did charge it in russia's attempt to interfere with the 2016 election. and also false statements tied to donald trump and others. another possible charge that strikes me unlikely is insurrection based on donald trump's speech. that gets into first amend, free speech issues. that's probably the universe that jack

so da willis poses a problem for special counsel smith. da willis has signaled she anticipates announcing an indictment, potentially as early as july 31st, that gives special counsel smith 11 business days to make his own announcement, assuming he wants to make it first. that is not the only calendar that jack smith has to worry about. there has been endless speculation about what the upcoming presidential election calendar will mean for smith's prosecutorial decisions. today, we finally heard about the matter for the man himself. earlier this week, in jack smith's other case against trump, for trump's alleged mishandling of classified documents, team trump asked the judge to postpone the trial and that case until after the 2024 election. today, jack smith's team responded, saying team trump, and their arguments, had no basis in law or fact. and that the complications of a presidential candidates trial or actually reasons to start the process sooner rather than later. one wonders if that might apply to a certain other federal trump investi

smith has already filed against mr. trump, the charges he brought against him in the mar-a-lago documents case. and number two, we have this -- this thing. a group of seven highly respected defense attorneys and former officials put together a comprehensive model prosecution laying out what they think the charges against trump are likely to be. joining us now is dawnia perry, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york and one of the authof this weighty prosecution and daniel with the national security division which handles things like the mishandling of classified documents. i could not think of two better people to talk to about all this tonight. in terms of the inferences we're making based on jack smith's position in and around mar-a-lago, is it fair to look at that as a road map? >> in some ways he is. he clearly looks for a stream lined case in the mar-a-lago case, and they focus very narrowly. they didn't include a bunch of extra defendants and they seemed to stream line the evidence. th

one problem at jack smith has is that the clock is ticking. and the smart money i think is that he will try to indict a case in july or early august. purely to get the jump on the political season. there are certainly restrictions within the oj taking actions to close to an election. which makes things very difficult for federal prosecutors during corruption cases. this is one area where the situation is not unprecedented. prosecutors are used to trying to block their proceedings in cases involving elected officials to make sure that they are having as little as an impact as possible on elections. so the timeline does make sense. it does look like smith is bringing in some final witnesses. and it's entirely possible that we will see an indictment soon. but that is as barb says, an investigation could continue in that indictment might be superseded down the road. superseding can mean adding additional defendants where additional counts to an indictment. the problem is with the process can come additional delay. and smith, at least in the mar-a-

another top target, rudy giuliani who met with jack smith's team last week. ports that giuliani was interviewed for eight hours, was asked about john eastman, the architect of trump's strategy to stop congress from certifying joe biden's election when. when. let's bring back our panel. -- i want to start with you. we just learned that -- trump lawyers like giuliani reportedly a focus for jack smith right now. meanwhile we just learned that a d. c.-based disciplinary panel is calling for giuliani to be disbarred over his quote, utter disregard for the facts in his election fraud claims. that will be decided by the d. c. court of appeals. between this, jack smith's probe, just how much legal trouble is rudy giuliani in? >> a whole lot. what a fall for america's mayor, what a fall for the u. s. attorney. he's now resembling the people he wants prosecuted. and he gave this lengthy proffer to federal investigators, and that's an offer of information in return in his mind for maybe immunity or a good deal. and so he knows that the walls are closing in for him. and

jack smith would want to go first, but will fani willis end up getting a trial date before jack smith those charges related to january 6th? and what interplay will there be with the witnesses? because there'll be many witnesses in common with both. i do think fani willis has particular expertise in using the racketeering status in georgia. and she did that with the teaching cheating scandal. something you don't think of. when you think of rico you think of gang centers. you don't think of educators systematically cheating on exams in order to feather their own nests. she's got experience with this, and this is where i think some of the delay on her charges is that some of these fake electors are taking advantage of offers of immunity. and coming in and telling exactly how they were contacted, exactly what they believed, and now can she pull that thread all the way back to donald trump on the fake electors? and that's where somebody like mark meadows becomes a very, very important witness. >> andrew wiseman, to tie them all together for us, what fani willis is up to in georgia and to b

an indictment to be expected in jack smith's other case.t in the mar-a-lago case. tell us what we understand to be happening there. >> that's right, nicolle, and our information at this point is limited. all we know is that man's name has been added to the docket. we don't know if he's been charged. we can't say the nature of the charges. in fact -- we are awaiting the formal news release that the justice department typically sends out when something like this happens, and we have not seen it yet. we don't know what his official status is, but as you said, he's been the subject of reporting with things done to the pool at mar-a-lago and questions about whether there was any intentional effort to destroy evidence, including boxes of documents at mar-a-lago. and we'll just have to wait and see what exactly is his status with regard to the case. right now we're just saying his name has been added to the mar-a-lago docket. >> ken, on that other news we have been watching all day, the abnormally lengthy time the jury sat in the january 6th inves

so, even with all of this on his plate, jack smith is still investigating.ts, potentially even superseding indictments against existing defendants still to come. how do all of these cases line up with each other? and what exactly is the order of operations here? there is no better person to ask than the two genes i have tonight, ari melber host of msnbc's the beat with ari melber, and neal katyal, of course, former acting solicitor general for the obama administration. neal, the calendar seems very full already. -- october of this year is the new york a. g.'s civil fraud case against trump.- march of next year's alvin bragg's to trial for the hush money probe. there is an unknown trial date for mar-a-lago, and potentially a trial set that will be set in fani willis's investigation into trump's role in the 2020 election results in her state and then, of course, the special counsel probe, january 6th, a potential trump indictment. how is this all going to work, neal? >> so, it's definitely a full calendar, alex, as you said, and it's because donald trump, sure