so i think what it seems like so far to me is that somebody whether in washington or cincinnati or whereverthe i.r.s. got in their head. okay,ell, here how we'll figure out who is partisan. es it say "tea party "give them an extra chec >> eric: who? we agree on that. we agree on the details. who? who came up with the idea? it has to generate from somewhere. we need to know who that is. >> that is what they should figure out. let me say one thing,hich is, if what we find out i t end is that they applied the scrutiny to the tea party, and to a whole bunch of other groups, then i think that situation is very different than if the i.r.s. itself is being partisan. if the i.r.s. turns out to be partisan, think that is a huge problem. they should be trying toure tha. >> the president version of accntability. we'll figure it out. get back to you. >> eric: there are no liberal groups targeted. if you know of one liberal group targeted go ahead. go to my twitter account. let me know. i will bring it. i heard zero liberal groups. >> the only grps, the only groups that lost their tax exempt status actu

so i think what it seems like so far to me is that somebody whether in washington or cincinnati or wherever in the irs got in their head, okay, here is how we're going to figure out who is partisan. does it say tea party let's give them an extra check. >> eric: we agree on the details. woo who came up with the details? >> let me say one thing which is if what we find out in the end that they applied this scrutiny to the tea party and to a whole bunch of other groups, i think that situation is very different than if the irs itself is being partisan. if the irs turns out to be partisan, i think that is a huge problem. >>> it's the president's version of accountability. >> eric: there are no liberal groups that were targeted. if you know of one liberal group targeted, go to my twitter account, let me know. >> only groups that lost their tax exempt status actually were liberal groups, progress whatever group. they had it taken away. >> eric: there are two different issues. targeting conservative groups to allow them to get their tax exempt status where they weren't doing on the liberal groups.

. >> what maps isn't whether they were doing it in washington or cincinnati. that's not what matters. or duluth. what matters is the culture of intimidation. the culture of intimidation this president and his allies created around any person or group that spoke up for conservatism. so, no, i don't believe the president ever picked up the phone and told somebody over at irs to slow walk these applications or audit anybody, but the truth is he didn't have to. he didn't have to do that. the message was clear enough. >> let me go to you on this, john. i don't know where you stand, but i have been -- i cover the news every day here. i read the papers in the morning starting at 7:00 in the morning. i read everything. he comes on, he's great member on that committee. he's given us all the evidence he's been able to collect and we listened to everything that darrell issa gave. i have yet to hear one piece of evidence from the campaign that anybody from the president's campaign or team or camp broadly defined anyone, male or female, had anything to do with the screwup

. >> what matters isn't whether they were doing it in washington or cincinnati. that's not what matters. what matters is the culture of intimidation. this culture the president and his allies around any group or person that spoke up for conservatism so, no i don't believe the president ever picked up the phone and told somebody over at irs to slow walk these applications or audit anybody. but the truth is he didn't have to. he didn't have to do that. the message was clear enough. >> let me go to you on this john. i don't know where you stand but i cover the news every day here and read the papers starting at 7:00 in the morning and yet i looked at elijah cummings. he has given us all the evidence he's been able to collect and, of course, we've listened to everything darrell issa the chair of the committee said and i have yet to hear one piece of evidence that anybody from the president's campaign anybody from his team or camp broadly defined, anyone male female had anything to do with the screwup over at the irs. so why does mcconnell now blame him for that as he

possible look, say there are five or six people at the irs that went rogue wlrks it's in washington or cincinnatiatever, the conferences alone hat 2,600-plus managers and you figured five people in the office knew 2,600 were going. you multiply that by five and probably ten knew. so all these people were so well aware of it. the pool is so big of who's inept. forget the five rogue or 10 or 20 or whoever knew. thousands must have known about the conference. >> right. you're absolutely right. and this is a culture at the irs. it's clearly not just a few individuals. it's a culture that says the government knows best and government has the right to know everything about you, and, in fact, it can target individuals or donors or groups of individuals that's what's wrong and we ought not allow the irs into our health care. >> and your money is mine, dial with it what i damn well please. that's the o'part of it. >> exact will i. >> thank you, sir. >> thanks. take care. >>> more news. is the obama administration about to miss the big deadline? what is that deadline? will it impact you? the answers are ne

. >> what matters isn't whether they were doing it in washington or cincinnati. that's not what matters or duluth. what matters is the kuculture o intimidation. the culture of intimidationing this president and his allies created around any person or group that spoke up for conservatism. so no, i don't believe that the president ever picked up the phonen an told somebody over at irs to slow walk these applications or audit anybody. but the truth is, he didn't have to. he didn't have to do that. the message was clear enough. >> let me go to you on this john. i don't know where you stand. but i cover thenous every day. i read the papers in the morning starting at 8:00 in the morning. yet, i had elijah cummings on here. he's ranking member on that committee. he has given us all the evidence he's been able to collect. maybe not enough. of course, we've listened to everything darrell issa and i have yet to hear one piece of evidence that anybody from the president's campaign, anybody from his team or camp broadly defined, anyone, male, female, had anything to do with t

>> i did not speak with them on the phone. >> you do not know if it came from washington or cincinnati. >> the address on the letter said "cincinnati." missthink we should bring we shouldand others, try to figure at who these people are and conduct interviews with these folks. i remain concerned about mrs. lerner, who pleaded the fifth and said she did not do anything wrong. we should probably try to get her before the committee. and her colleague, mr. joseph who was promoted and then resigned. i think they could shed some light on the constitutional rights of these witnesses and the money race of these americans, and i yield back. >> thank you for calling today's hearings. what we have heard is very troubling. the i.r.s. touches many americans. is certainly unacceptable. i am troubled by the mismanagement of the i.r.s. in handling tax exempt applications. based onrector miller a director highlighted a case of a constituent who was penalized a few years later. americans should be able to rely on the advice of the i.r.s. without punishment. failure to provide congress information it is

beyond the pale and thus the implication if you are working in the bowels of the irs in washington or in cincinnati i thank one of the reasons you have had this firestorm over the nsa which i think is rather inocuous is because if you give the government the leeway for the information you have to have a mod couple of trust that it will be done openly, fairly and in a way that is even handed. once you get the impression from the irs, from the ap scandal and the other scandals and the fact that this administration stonewalls and barricades a lot on other issues like benghazi, this enyou have lost that trust and then the nsa stuff becomes really scary. >> chris: as we saw, kirsten, from the strong response when rand paul took to the senate floor for 13 hours to protest the administration's position on the use of drones, people are worry ared about government intrusive and truetive an threatening our privacy. one of the fox polls, 68% of americans believe government is out of control. kirsten, do you think this when you take all of this, the new stuff, the old stuff, all this stuff, do you see it gaini

i did not speak with them on the phone. >> you do not know if it came from washington or cincinnati. >> the address on the letter said "cincinnati." >> i think we should bring miss richards and others, we should try to figure at who these people are and conduct interviews with these folks. i remain concerned about mrs. lerner, who pleaded the fifth and said she did not do anything wrong. we should probably try to get her before the committee. and her colleague, mr. joseph grant, who was promoted and then resigned. i think they could shed some light on the constitutional rights of these witnesses and the many rights of these americans, and i yield back. >> thank you for calling today's hearings. what we have heard is very troubling. the i.r.s. touches many americans. these reports are certainly unacceptable. i am troubled by the mismanagement of the i.r.s. in handling tax exempt applications. acting director miller based on a question, highlighted a case of a constituent who was penalized a few years later. americans should be able to rely on the advice of the i.r.s. without punishment

we just had the initial letter and then i contacted -- >> you do not know if it came from washington or cincinnati? >> the address he gave on the letter he signed said cincinnati. >> ok. mr. chairman, in light of today's testimony i think we should bring these, at least mr. steele, ms. richards, who does not have a first name -- we should try to figure out who those people are and bring them before the committee or at least conduct interviews with these folks. i am also remaining concerned about mrs. lerner, who pleaded the fifth and shed -- said she did not do anything wrong. we should try to get her before the committee. josephr colleague, mr. grant, who was promoted weeks before. and then resigned immediately. i think they could shed some light on who violated the constitutional rights of these witnesses, and many rights of many americans. i will yield back. >> mr. neale is recognized. >> thanks for calling today's hearings. what we have heard today and in previous hearings is certainly very troubling. ,he irs touches every american and it is critical americans should trust the irs and not be i

>> we had the initial letter and make out with them. >> your mother came from washington or cincinnati >> the address he gave him a letter that he signed at cincinnati. >> okay. >> mr. chairman, my today's testimony, we should bring these, mr. steel, say, nine and ms. richards who does not a first name, try to figure out who those people are and bring them and conduct interviews with these folks and i also remain concerned about mrs. lerner who pleaded the fifth and said she didn't do anything wrong. we should get her before this committee mr. joseph grant promoted weeks before and then resigned immediately. they could maybe shed some light on who violated the constitutional rights of these essays and many rights of many americans. i don't act. >> thank you. mr. nielsen recognized. >> thank you, mr. chairman. what we've heard today in previous hearings is certainly very troubling. the iris touches every american and its critical americans trust the irs for not being committed are afraid. reports including today's testimony of targeting based on political views, religion or opposition t

leak of your tax information, if it included your organization donors, did it come from washington, d.c. or cincinnati, or do you know? >> i don't of any reasonably that came from cincinnati. are finally office is out in utah and in the washington office is who we been dealing with. >> mr. chairman, i think we should try to figure out where, perhaps inspector general has that information which we speed up this process on this investigation. of where this information was leaked from because obviously that would dispel the cincinnati narrative that is out there. ms. martinek, the irs agent who handled your case is ms. richards? >> that is correct. >> does ms. richards have a first in? >> she never gave a first name. >> okay. did you correspond with any of the irs agent about your gay? >> i did not, but our attorney sally did. >> okay but could you provide the names of those you correspond with to this committee? >> yes. >> did ms. richards ever indicate she was discussing your case or seeking guidance from anyone else in the irs? >> she did a couple times, put me on hold, and then she said i'm going to

who in cincinnati or in washington started those flags of tea party groups?t's kind of amazing to me as a reporter. you know, i haven't gotten subpoena power, but a few of these people do. and it's one question we haven't answered. and it would put to rest or inflate some of the speculation about how it got started if we knew the answer. >> i was thinking of a perverse version of what churchill said. when the history of mankind have many owed so much to so few? how many people in the cincinnati office actually did something wrong in terms of targeting or profiling the right? how many were there? dozens? half a dozen? three? >> a couple dozen analysts whose names appear to be on some of the correspondence with the groups. and one thing we saw in our reporting is that responsibility for these cases kept shifting over the course of these three years. and, look, this is a pretty good example of a bureaucracy amuck and screwing up. it's a real problem. >> when lois lerner said stop doing this and caught them again, how many people was she yelling at saying don't d

or tea party in their name. employees in the cincinnati office has been interviewed and are telling conflicting stories whether this what from cincinnati or higher ups in washingtonere's so far no hard evidence of any involvement by treasury or the white house at least so far. as someone who's been around this town awhile, what do you make of the irs scandal? >> i think it's the -- one of the worst abuses of power imaginable when you think of the power of the irs. it clearly was used for political purposes to go after a conservative group, my side of the political spectrum. regardless of who it was, that is a kind of gross abuse of power that everybody's legitimately concerned about. i think that i have trouble believing two guys in cincinnati dreamed this scheme up. i just don't think that's true. i once -- i don't often talk about it but i was the director of operations of the cost of living council. one of e the i thinks i had to oversee were 3,000 irs agents. it was a professional organization. they worked hard to take the rules and regulations by the policy types and implement them in the field. i have trouble -- it was a long time ago -- but i have trouble

appeared before the committee have identified any irs official in washington, d.c., who directed employees in cincinnati to use tea party or similar terms to screen applicants for extra scrutiny. and more investigations are coming for the irs. a report set to be released this week claims this organization has been excessively spending on things such as parties and dance instruction videos. >> look. i never signed up for this. no, seriously. i never signed up for this. >> the agency spent $1,600 to shoot this video showing employees line dancing. it was shot for entertainment for a 2010 conference in california. the report says the agency spent nearly $50 million on at least 220 conferences for employees over the past three years. and other perks for conference attendees reportedly included vouchers for free drinks and baseball tickets. alexis? >> tara mergener in washington. thanks. >>> coming up on the "morning news," we'll reveal which jobs put you at risk of gaining weight. >>> plus, actress angelina jolie steps back into the spotlight. she makes her first public appearance since revealing she had a double mastectomy. t

or conferences that they do so. we don't want washington think or cincinnati think no training, no travel, no interaction. just the opposite. we want to get this right. many will say $50 million over these many conference is wrong. i will say for the tens of thousands of workers who could have received great training, whose travel could be have been meaningful and less expensive they were cheated out of additional education and meaningful training by this waste. i don't believe that any of us could determine if $50 million, $90 million was the right amount to spend but with the help of the inspector general we know much of it was misspent and the american people did not get a well-trained federal work force. many federal workers will look at this hearing and say i don't get those perks. as a matter of fact, i would get fired if i took one of those perks. the federal workers around the country should be appalled there were two standards. rest. some, one for the as taxpayers we should be appalled there are two standards, one for us and a different one for the people who work for i.r.s. in some cases. i thin

washington, d.c. who directed employees in cincinnati to use tea party or similar terms to screen applicants for extracrutiny. back to you, heather. >> now to extreme weather around the northeast getting hit hard by severe storms overnight. take a look at the damage in maine. >> over 30,000 people left in the dark. more storms could be coming for the region as well. not good news maria for the folks living there. >> any time you have storms that produce flooding across an area and you have threat for more additional rain on top of that area you are talking about the potential for flooding. that's something we will keep an eye on. on the east coast we are not anticipating a severe weather threat in terms of damaging winds and hail but the thunderstorms will be firing up the lightening will be another concern parts of massachusetts and connecticut all down the eastern sea board and coast you are talking about showers and storms. travel is going to be another big concern. ahead of the frontal system 62 degrees for the high temperature. 74 in new york city. that of course a leaf after experiencing 90 degr

. >> is it just cincinnati or does it come towards washington? how high does it go? >> i was about to say the people in washington, d.c., in particular for example, the position of director rulings and agreement which is in my -- >> okay so could go further. >> there are five levels but needs the commissioners office but they're involved in these activities and the office is in washington, d.c. >> i switch it to the people ever present back in northwest pennsylvania do not for any, they don't believe right now that there's going to be a serious inquiry into this and they don't think that the irs is going to come out of its own or the ministers would also but it's going to be up to us and congress to continue to look for the answers are pixar we shall look the answers are pics i wish you luck on your job and also would say this is critical to the faith and trust the people have in this government right now. their tank is running on zero because we haven't seen anything yet that make sense to the american people that this is fair and just to them. >> mr. renacci and th

among the questions that remain whether or not low-level irs employees in cincinnati got their marching ords from washingtonnd are now being scapegoated by scandal. on "lou dobbs tonight" last night heosted discussion wit attorneys where they offered up this suggestion to the best way of getting to the truth. >> what i would do, looking from a positive standpoint, i would go to the field offic in cincinnati, and i would immunize them. gerri: obviously scared to death. >> talk to congress or the prosecution because it could be a federal offense. immunize them. gerri: interesting. what are you talking about tonight? lou: we will be talking with those issues as well. the reason she suggested that is you can't take the fifth amendment if you are given immunity by the government in this investigation and prosecution. tonight we are talking about irs scandal, talking with the chief counsel of the american center for law and justice. that is the group that has now filed a lawsuit on behalf of 255 tea party and conservative organizations against the internal revenue service for any egregious use of power. the big n

washington, d.c. who directed employees in cincinnati to use tea party or similar terms to jean applicants for extra skooucrutiny. let me bring back the national journal's national correspondent and the "huffington post's" reporter. officially, it comes out tomorrow, although we know that between 2010 and 2012, the irs spent $50 million on conferences. that included 135,000 on outside speakers. they always paid full price for hotel rooms in exchange for perks like baseball tickets, hotel suites. ron, it's hard to imagine worst possible timing. >> oh, it's perfect timing for the republicans, which is why they're diing up when is an old controversy, that the administration has taken accountability for and promised not to happen again. it is outrageous, obviously, but it makes good tv. they want us to play that video over and over again to embarrass the administration rather than focus on the actual facts. can they prove that this abuse of the republicans went to the white house, went to the campaign or not and stop throwing around allegations and putting up videos until you really get to the bottom of this

appeared before the committee, have identified any irs official in washington, d.c., who directed employees in cincinnati to use tea party or similar terms to screen applicants for extra scrutiny. the wreckless statements are inconsistent with the findings of the inspector general. those are his words, end quote. cummings goes on to say, congress needs to work in a bipartisan way to uncover the truth to restore the public's trust in the irs. turning to the attorney general eric holder, who some would way is on a very hot seat right now. the chairman of the house judiciary committee, virginia republican goodlatte, says they're investigating comments he made regarding the justice department's handling of leaks and the media. >> it is fair to say we are investigating the conflict in his remarks. those remarks were made under oath, but we also think it's very important that the attorney general be afforded the opportunity to respond. so we will wait to pass judgment on that until after we receive his response. >> harris: meanwhile, another republican on the house judiciary committee is even threatening a possible subpoena if at

washington technical office of irs. >> right. >> very significant. >> well, but even a conservative republican in cincinnati wouldn't actually know what the white house had on its brain ore irs and washington had. that's my only point. there's not a definitiveness to this in the sense that i'm trying to figure out if anybody in the interview so far has said i wrote the b.o.l.o. that said pull out tea party applications? who is that person? >> nobody. again, this thing started with this guy -- it was started with a screener in his unit. the screener has -- it started with a tea party case, one tea party case in 2010 -- >> do you know what case that was by the way? it was just described as high profile. what does that mean? >> high profile. that means it's a case that is unique. they believe it would set precedent -- whatever decision they made would set precedent. and they wanted to make sure that it was handled in a way whereby whenever cases came behind it that were similar that they would be treated in a consistent way. this is very significant. and so the screener looked at this first case and then he takes it to his boss, the republican conservative. >> right. >> an

irs manager in cincinnati who described himself as a conservative republican said and he a colleague decided to give conservative groups extra scrutiny? true or false? >> he asked washingtonation. a tea party or conservative group. and you had washington directing, asking for more only cakeses, taking information from those applicants, going after applicants, we are deposing people who were involved again in cincinnati. i have some of the testimony i brought tonight. they point the finger back at specific people in washington. that's where we're going next, to fin od out who demanded what? >> a copy from congressman cummings to congressman issa, and he says he asked that the committee release publicly the transcripts and make limited redactions to protect individual privacy. if we are going to have transparency and republicans giving obama heck for not having transparency. >> we are releasing some. >> the problem if you just release some, are you subject to the criticism that you are just conveniently releasing stuff that advances you. >> we're in an investigation. conducted by the irs -- i'm sorry, by the inspector general was an audit. this is an investigation. >> but s

gone is as far as it's ton no proof of a washington connection or a white house connection, he didn't more or less say that it stopped at the doctors of cincinnatihat too you think? >> i think it's strains creditñr duality. theyç went after the businessmn in idaho who got audited and because he gave money to romney. this is a bad situation from the get-go and doesn't do the country any good and doesn't do the democratic party any good to try to sell this line because most thoughtful people are going to look at it and say, get real. >> neil: you're talking about the romney donor who had been audited for no less than three times by two different agencies, and he did spend all that money to defend his good name. but did have to spend a lot of money. but he did say in the course of talking to me that others were cite explodentñ audited and spid on asç well. and pressured. do you think that this is wider than we know? apart from what might or might not have been coming out of cincinnati, this is involving far more organizations or individuals than we know? >> i think mr. vapider --[h?95=n , look, we screwed up. hope any itç didn't cost the taxpaye

cincinnati who did this. there is not a connection to washington or any larger faction so who is carter hull, where had s he basede heard that explanation this is a couple of rogue agents from the obama administration, from the top officials in the irs and some democratic lawmakers. that now i think has been exploded. this was managed from washington, d.c. from the outset. we at national review reported two weeks ago now that what is known as the technical office in washington, d.c. which is a group of lawyers, was closely involved in handling these cases from the outset, meaning in march of 2010. carter hull is one of those lawyers that was handling these cases. he was the first lawyer to take a look at these tea party cases. we know from transcripts of interviews with the hull's oversight committee he begin looking at the cases. the reason employees in cincinnati even began screening for tea party cases was due to requests from washington. >> megyn: what is his relationship to other the players in this. they have put a chart totaling involved in this and they show a woman named cindy thomas. what relationship b

their direct boss or who in washington and how high does it go? the mind reels. >> the cincinnati fox affiliate has been doing good work on this case. that is the structure of the irs case out there and this is the closest we came to having names. in the bottom there is line agents and some of the people who is not out letters and so o. and their top cindi thomas whose name hasn't been mentioned a lot in the hearings. they all answered to her and had different managers and all reported to cindi thomas. and cindi thomas' boss was in each one of these interviews that the inspector general conducted. and the law makers raised the point, do you think that might have been chilling for the line employees and for you to be asking, who ordered you to do this? when you have the bosses boss's boss sitting there maybe they didn't want to answer. >> just pointing over here? the truth is here, that we know that the danger for the administration and the danger for president obama and the danger for his team lies in the moment that this starts to flow back up the organizational chart. it goes ba

whether it was from cincinnati or whether the tentacles reached back to headquarters in washington, d.ct of republicans saying they are just not getting the answers they want. today's hearing features a group of tea party representatives from around the country who have basically come to capitol hill to detail how they were run up and down the flagpole, rattling off document requests made by the irs, that these groups say were simply an effort to try to dissuade them from getting tax-exempt status. we heard from a woman who heads a group called the san fernando valley patriots coming all the way from california to tell her story. karen ken nip said one question she was asked by the irs was to list all of the groups her -- laws her groups had broken and whether they promoted or conducted illegal activity. she had a snappy one liner say "we're the san fernando valley patriots" not "occupy oakland." >> outline for people why should the average american be concerned about this? how does this affect people who may not be trying to apply for tax-exempt status? >> reporter: sure. there was one

. >> is it just cincinnati or does it come toward washington?>> i was about to say there are people in washington, d.c., in particular, for example, the position of director in agreement in my -- >> okay. it could go -- >> the person in d.c. there are five levels beneath the commissioner's office. they are involved in the activity and office in washington, d.c. >> okay. i appreciate it. i want to tell you the people i represent in pennsylvania do not -- for any -- they don't believe right now there's going to be a serious inquiry in to this. they don't think that the irs is going come out of the it outer administration will do it. it's going to be up on us to continue to look for what the answers. i wish you luck on the job. staledst critical to faith and trust to the people discovered right now their tarng is running on zero. we haven't seen anything that makes sense to the american people. it's fair and just to them. i was watching the question it remine med in the day of the private sector life when i was hired go in to bad situation and turn

initials, there was debate whether or not there was narrow enough, because then you come up with teachers. you have a fight as to who knew what when in cincinnati and washington, d.c. senator hoyer was asked, he said you can understand why they would be defensive about it. if you believe holly paz, some of it washes up in washington. >> one of the things she talks about is the fact they were looking at politics in this. she says they were looking at all groups, but not all groups have the name tea party in their title. >> reporter: and that was one of the biggest issues, too, in some of the other transcripts i looked at a couple weeks ago. it was clear there were certain groups getting more scrutiny, and other groups that came in, in fact, the deposition from elizabeth hofbaker in cincinnati said they would get applications for liberal groups, there was no adjudication with the level of scrutiny they were giving to the tea partiers. >> maybe there's no immediate answer, but for people watching, it is almost like this is an onion, we have gotten to layer three, and there are 393 layers to go. you wonder how much more we will learn. is this somewhat of a smokin

him about the irs investigation and whether he believes the conduct was confined to cincinnati or may lead to washington >> i think that that's the reason why we ought to have hearings. in fact, maybe even a select committee maybe called for with given the question surrounding this investigation. so i think we ought to wait and see how events unfold. certainly, when you look at the people that were targeted, it might have been something different than accidental, but i think we ought to have hearings and i think there may be an argument for a special counsel here. i think let's wait and see. >> i have to ask you about the latest video that's come out of irs employees at an employee event learning to line dance at taxpayers' expense your reaction to seeing that. >> i wonder why do they keep doing this stuff? it is just -- it hurts their credibility enormously. suspicions confirmed about what federal employees do and we know there are many hundreds of thousands of dedicated federal employees who work hard every day for us. >> let's talk about syria. you recently returned from a trip there and you said yes

cincinnati. >> u.s. higher up? higher up than lois lerner? >> there is evidence and information that they were told what to do from washington? >> does that include the white house, ore're in the process of finding these things out. in the middle of very intensive negotiations, and documents, everything, we've got very good vest gautiinvestigative people, don't feel i should comment on it until i get the actual facts. we'll get them. and when we do, hopefully things won't be as bad as some people anticipate. i suspect they will be pretty bad. >> the irs needs to hire -- administration, about 1,900 and change, new employees at obama care. will they get money from capitol hill to do that? >> i doubt it. let me say this. they want to implement obama care, which has premium subsidies that will come to people -- refundable premium subsidies that come to people who make up to $94,000 a year. that's how out of whack it is. it will be tremendously expensive. they are finning it will be tremendously expensive. very poorly written. overrun with regulations. i hate to tell you, but the good things in obama care and there aren't many of them, we would have put into a bill that

cincinnati irs employee told investigators app irs lawyer in washington, carter hull, oversaw her work and suggested questions to does, quote, i was essentially a front person because i had no autonomy oro authority to agent on applications without carter's influence or input. the agent said he was angry when lois lerner was scapegoating cincinnati, quote, i was furious. it looked like lois lerner put it op us. she pled the fifth in the hearing after trying to defend herself. the transcript and interviews contradict the initial narrative targeting a couple agents in cincinnati going rogue. lou? lou: thank you. meanwhile, attorney general eric holder's role in the targeting of journalists in the leak investigations, the principle topic at a hearing held by the senate appropriations subcommittee. the attorney general forced to defend his department's abuse of the first amendment leading to an admission that changes need to be made. fox news correspondent shannon breen with the report. >> i hope you agree the american people deserve an attorney general completely focused on the fair, impartial judgment of the law of justice and not distracted by controversies of his own making. reporter: