he was waterboarded 183 times, subjected to the most extreme waterboarding and interrogations of allhen they was asking about this kuwaiti courier, he played down his significance he described him as retired, he dismissed him as being relevant. now, why that's important is that we now eventually the cia was able to p concluded, he was a protege of ksm. they were extremely close. some u.s. intelligence officials even thought they were related, though that doesn't seem to have been the case, but they were -- had worked together for years. so when khalid sheikh mohammed after waterboarding dismisses abu ahmed and described him as retired, he's misleading the cia, throwing them off the trail, although he talked about a lot of things, and there's been a considerable debate about how valuable that intelligence ultimately was the one most valuable pieces of information he contained, the courier who could have lead him to bid laden, he threw the cia off. i have one former fbi official tells me actually the facts here suggest that this was the more clear example of how waterboarding didn't wo

but it was not waterboarding. >> anyone that suggests the enhanced techniques, let's be blungt, waterboarding, did not produce an enormous amount of valuable intelligence, just isn't facing the truth. >> stephen: now, when he says, "let's be blunt," is he referring to what he was smoking to be able to say both of those things in the same week? [cheers and applause] unfortunately, folks, unfortunately, even rumsfeld doesn't settle anything. and the only way torture can be justified is if we know that they saved lives. but if there is no indisputable evidence that torture saves lives, there's only one thing a civilized nation can do? torture more. we've got to keep torturing until there is one clear case where everyone says that torturing saves lives. then and only then will our actions be justified. so who do we torture next? now, we could... [cheers and applause] it could be terrorist, but what are they going to tell us, where bin laden is? the onlies who know that are fish, and waterboarding won't help. [laughter] folks, if you think about it, you know what kills more americans than terroris

what people were prosecuted for when they waterboarded u.s. troops was forcing water down their throats until their some yacks and intestines became distended, very painfully, and then stepping on their some yacks and intestnd and forcing the water back up and doik it repeatedly over and over again or feeding them raw rice and then forcing water down their throats and waiting until it expanded. what the commer rouge did was to hand cuff people to the bottom of barrels and gradually fill those barrels with water until many drowned. what the c.i.a. did was to tie somebody to a board, put a cloth over his face, pour water on him for no longer than 40 seconds at a time and the effect was in essence to increase the co2 level in his blood to the point where it caused panic. that's all it caused. and all three of the people who were waterboarded showed no ill effects afterwards. that's just a plain and simple truth. it is, you can call an 18 wheeler and a mini cooper both motor vehicles but i don't think that that creates a meaningful comparison betw

in fact, no one was waterboarded at again tan know, period.three people were waterboarded by the cia, away from guantanamo. and then later brought to guantanamo in fact, as you point out the information that came from those individuals was critically important. >> sean: does stkwraoeub serve as much credit for what happened sunday -- does george w. bush deserve as much credit for what happened sunday as president obama? >> the current administration would not have had the intelligence nor the special forces numbers, equipment, training, authorities and the experience. we increased their budget four fold during the time i was in the pentagon. we increased the numbers in the special operations people, by about 50%. their equipment has been improved. those capabilities, to deal with a symmetric threats were developed during the george w. bush administration, let there be no doubt about it. we give credit to the current administration for making the decisions they made many and clearly, the bush administration is the one that developed and nurture

that is the same administration that ends waterboarding.s thing that's enormously valuable, they say, you know what,st enormously valuable but we're not going to do it anymore because we don't need it. why would you ever stop doing it if it was enormously valuable. >> the reason why is because of the long-term negative consequences of using torture and abuse which greatly outweigh any benefit you get from them. i saw in iraq when i was overseeing interrogations foreign fighters were coming to fight because of the torture and abuse of prisoners at abu ghraib and guantanamo bay. those statistics were tracked by department of defense. i saw them in briefings. and this resulted in the deaths of hundreds if not thousands of american soldiers in iraq. these torture advocates they don't want to talk about these long-term costs of having used torture and how they far outweigh any benefit we ever had. >> i always wondered about the torture discussion in your experience the opposite of torture might actually work more easily. for example, treating so

every other legal scholar out there will tell you that waterboarding is torture if you look at the un you look at international conventions on human rights waterboarding is torture moving it will disagree on that but the bottom line is we would never have started on the trail that technology later helped the spying this guy k s m had been waterboarding and started to cooperate but he started to cooperate right like like we said let's look at this timeline here we are already stopped water boarding him using enhanced interrogation techniques in two thousand and three so a year later perhaps he finally decides to talk why then did roger boarding lead to this if there's no direct correlation when we were talking to him initially he told us i know of terrorist attacks and overcoming attacks and all kinds of things i'm just not going to tell you so we started being mean to we were quite mean to him and he deserved but then he started cooperating and then he was transferred from the cia's secret prisons overseas to close gitmo and all the sudden. you know what do you try to give up all of t

the president of the united states authorized the waterboarding.o three people by the cia. not by the military. and it produced an enormous amount of very, very valuable intelligence information. >> it just amazes me how former bush administration officials are out on the beaten path on the cables just saying it just did everything for the country. your thoughts on that. >> well, my former boss colin powell recently said that donald rumsfeld was delusional and deceptive and he could prove both points. my former boss is right. and on this issue, donald rumsfeld is more delusional than deceptive probably than any other. first of all, his last statement about hoards of intelligence is preposterous. it didn't produce hoards of intelligence. i never saw any raw intelligence pass my desk that came from such things that was actionable that really led to any circumstance at all that produced a result that was positive. secondly, donald rumsfeld only has, as knowledge, what his bureaucracy gave him. he wasn't there. he wasn't at the site. multiple tiers of

and here's what's coming up tonight on the big picture waterboarding well it's not a sport it's a technique of strapping someone down a flat surface place you've been sheet over their face then continuously pouring water over their face. the way to extract information from a terrorist suspect or just good old fashioned torture the g.o.p.'s war on women continues other plan to revoke the right for low income the rape victims to receive the mercy of war and the legalization of medical marijuana could burn up tell you why the white house is urging state governors to veto their laws. you need to know this today president obama went to ground zero to honor the victims of nine eleven and join new yorkers to recognize sunday's moment of justice when the man behind this unthinkable act of terrorism osama bin laden was finally put to death in a somber ceremony the president offered no public remarks he simply laid a wreath at the site where the towers once stood congressman charlie rangle was on hand and called into my radio show earlier today paint a picture of the circle. i was with the family whe

that's right a number of pro torture right wingers are now trying to claim that waterboarding is how we got bin ladin i'm just clarify it for you the nickname of the courier that was osama bin laden's contact with the outside world and who the u.s. tracked to get him was provided by high value detainees clicheed mohamed originally then verified by her eyes al libi and hail some is said to have been water boarded one hundred eighty three times but if you look at the timeline it was presented by the obama administration. didn't provide this nickname until two thousand and four we stopped using harsh interrogation techniques on him and two thousand and three after that the fact that it took another four years just to get the guy's real name for operatives on the ground in afghanistan and pakistan and n.s.a. get some investigative work then after he made a fatal phone call and showed up on n.s.a. surveillance pakistani informants wrote down his license plate number which led them to the compound which eventually led them to bin laden so i'd say it was technology surveillance intelligence

the bush crowd who supported waterboarding, says they have been proven right. facts work. well, we will seem the fact its of the case got other way. according to the "new york times" according to others according to our own mike isikoff, waterboarding did not do it. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. thank you for calling esurance. man, we give out so many car insurance discounts. safe driver discount, homeowner's discount... multi-car discount. i wish we could get discounts everywhere. body like a greek god discount at the gym. best moves discount at the disco. you guys are so funny. really? best actress discount. uncalled for discount. whatever discount. [ female announcer ] tons of discounts. see for yourself at esurance. technology when you want it. people when you don't. yeah. well we're the two active ingredients in zegerid otc. i'm omeprazole. and i'm sodium bicarbonate. just one pill a day ... gives you 24-hour relief. & one mission. two ingredients heartburn solved. >>> president obama invited former president george w. bush to join him tomorrow at ground

but tide turns on waterboarding as american officials claim torture capture osama bin laden but human rights defenders say voluntary gratian achieves nothing. plus a show stopping performance courtesy of russia's top flight aerial display squads. great friends and here is these planes and their pilots while the world with their amazing aerobatics stunts it with their teeth to see exactly what a russian swifts can do. international news live from moscow this is twenty four hours a day french leaders being accused the funding of ever growing was chest while its most vulnerable citizens live on the breadline france is a problem player a nato intervention in libya and has troops stationed in other countries are reports now on how french military ambition is leading to the neglect of it's needed. heat or eat that's the choice faced by modem kids so just of supporting the elderly frances government is accused of using that money for war. france says it doesn't have enough funds for the time and attention is must tighten their belts now spans are referred to be one euro a year under france f

and the white house is pushing back on claims that waterboarding provided the intelligence that led to the raid. they are doing that because water board doing not lead to that intelligence. a team of investigators is poring over what cia director leon panetta calls an impressive amount of computer hard drives and other information taken from the house. panetta says the pakistanis were intentionally left in the dark about the raid because of concerns that they would alert the targets. we will get into all that in this hour as we explore the death of bin laden as a pivot point in american history. we now have a tremendous opportunity to change course on everything from pakistan to afghanistan to our domestic priorities here at home. this is a great moment for president obama to finally close the books on the bush version of the so-called war on terror. we will talk throughout tonight's show on exactly how he can do that. >>> first, let me bring in senator mark udall, democrat from colorado. he was just in a special briefing given by the ci a director. he serves on the intelligence commit

that was also called waterboarding. but the cia did was tie someone to board with a cloth over his face and pour water on him for no longer than three seconds at a time and the effect was to increase the co2 level in his blood to cause panic. that is all it caused. all three of the people who were water boarded showed no ill effect afterward. that is the plain and simple truth. you can call an 18 wheeler and many cooper motor vehicles but i do not think that creates meaningful comparisons. >> i will give you a common- sense definition. there are more journalists who have had themselves water board to prove it is torture than there were terrorists who were water border. if you're willing to try it, it is not torture. none of these individuals offered to have them selves have electrodes attached to certain parts of their body or have their teeth drilled without novocain or have their bones broken by leg presses. those are some of the techniques that people were subjected to. it does a disservice to people like colonel day

the bush crowd who supported waterboarding, says they have been proven right. facts work. well, we will seem the fact its of the case got other way. according to the "new york times" according to others according to our own mike isikoff, waterboarding did not do it. you are watching "hardball," only on msnbc. you could get arrested for that you know. it's not what you think. look. there was a time when a company like that would envy us. little outfit. it's almost quaint. all these years we had something they could never have. something only the biggest operations could ever afford. it was our strategic advantage. now they have it. what exactly is "it" that they have? logistics. a level playing field. it's not fair. >>> president obama invited former president george w. bush to join him tomorrow at ground zero in new york. president bush declined. the current president will lay a wreath at the ground zero memorial and pay tribute to the nearly 3,000 people who lost their lives in the 9/11 attacks. he will also meet with family members of the people who were killed and also

waterboarding returns to the u.s. officials claim to help them get osama bin ladin but a human rights activists say brutal interrogation is nothing but needless torture. plus we take to the skies with one of russia's top flight display school. for twenty years these planes and their pilots coming around the world with their amazing aerobatics stunts stay with our team see exactly what the russian swifts can do. and in business commodity as seeing the biggest selloff in the sector for two years with all raw material shockey down on the reasons for the decline in our business. twenty minutes from now. just after five pm here in moscow this is out now french leaders are being accused of funding an ever growing war chest all its own most vulnerable citizens are living on the breadline france is a prominent player and nato is intervention in libya as well as troops stationed elsewhere. were forced on how the french military ambition is leading to the neglect of its most needy. heat or eat that's the choice faced by modern

the tide turned sort of waterboarding as american officials claimed torture helped to capture osama bin laden while she wants to find this violent interrogation achieves nothing. plus a show stopping performance courtesy of russia's top flight aerial display squads. for twenty years these planes and their pilots while the world with their amazing aerobatics stunts stay with r t c exactly what the russian swifts can do. it's a national news live from moscow this is r t with you twenty four hours a day and to have you with us this hour french leaders are being accused of funding an ever growing war chest while its most vulnerable citizens live on the breadline france as a prominent player in a chose intervention in libya as troops stationed in other countries the new push will report some health french military ambition is leading to the neglect of it's needed. heat or eat that's the choice faced by modern kids so instead of supporting the elderly france's government is accused of using that money for war. france says it doesn't have enough finance retirement pension is must tighten their

waterboarding returns to form the u.s. officials claim and help them find osama bin laden but human rights activists say torture techniques are futile. plus we take to the skies with one of russia's top flight aerial display squats. for twenty years these planes and their pilots come round the world with their amazing aerobatics stunts play with their teeth and see exactly what the russian swifts can do. it's now a seven pm on friday here in moscow this is. now french leaders are being accused of funding an ever growing war chest while its own most of the honorable citizens are living on the breadline france is a prominent player and nato is intervention in libya as well as troops stationed elsewhere. reports on how french military ambition is leading to the neglect of its neighbors. heat or heat that's the choice faced by modern kids so instead of supporting the elderly france's government is accused of using that money for war. france says it doesn't have enough funds for a time and pensioners must tighten their belts no

of waterboarding returns to haunt the u.s. officials claim it helped them get osama bin laden but human rights activists are saying that brutal interrogation is nothing but needless torture. and celebrating two decades of amazing maneuvers to take to the skies with one of russia's top flight aerobatics wants. a very warm welcome for you this is artsy live from moscow french leaders are being accused of funding an ever growing war chest while its own most of the honorable citizens are living on the breadline france is a prominent player and nato intervention in libya as well as troops stationed elsewhere in the world now aussies are down a bushel reports on how french military ambition is leading to the neglect of it's needed. heat or eat that's the choice faced by modern kids so instead of supporting the elderly france's government is accused of using that money for war. france says it doesn't have enough time and attention as must tighten their belts it now spends over thirty billion euro a year on france france has more than

people who do the waterboarding have been waterboarded themselves. they know what they are -- the stress they are putting someone threw. -- through. >> does the person being waterboarded know that there is some doctors in the room and others? >> it is impossible to know. -- impossible for them not to know. >> did ksm have a family? >> yes. family of his own. he has a wife is fighting in -- hiding in iran. and he has a number of children, at least two sons and possibly two daughters. >> how is he kept in guantanamo? >> he is kept with four or five other high-value detainee is -- detainee's connected to 9/11 and is part of a slightly larger group of 15 to 16 very high- value detainees. >> is he in a cell by himself? >> i believe so. >> have they stopped talking to him at this point or are they still questioning him? >> he is still questioned. he is still shown drawings and other documents and asked about a name and that kind of thing. but the time of intense questioning is over. partly, it is for political reasons. he clearly still knows things that ha

i think so waterboarding now. waterboarding i don't you know wonder of waterboarding and nothing to do with bin laden's death likely republican presidential candidate rick santorum had this to say about president obama's big yeah take a look. through . this. new president obama hates freedom and of course the birth of his grasping for straws it was only a matter of time before the doctors spoke up that's right the right wing rag job andrew breitbart published an article on his website today suggesting that he won't believe it until he sees bin laden's body with his own eyes in other words you won't believe bin laden's dead until the president releases the long form corpse so this is what we should expect in the coming days in the american political scene from our more on this i'm joined by robert perry investigative journalist and editor of consortium news jamie weinstein deputy editor of the daily caller dot com robert jami great to see you both insta thanks thanks for joining us. and maybe we should give in to t

there are a lot of partisans that president obama shouldn't get credit for anything, waterboard i waterboardingh interrogation tactics don't deserve any credit. it's hard to turn back the clock. we may never know exactly what came from whom. that said, if we put it in the white house's words, they're expressing gratitude. >> i'm curious, do you think there is a place for bipartisan bickering if you want to call it that, over things like a war on terrorism? i know that's a nomenclature from the white house right now. does that make sense that people are going back and forth about who gets credit verse white house doesn't or is it because this is a heightened political season ahead of next year's elections? >> i think there have been legitimate differences between the parties and the presidents over how to conduct what bush, as you mentioned, called the war on terror and this white house does not, not only over how to treat detainees but where to go to war, whether it should be focused on counterterrorism or the insurgency. i don't think it's surprising that going forward each side will pick the

the tide turns on waterboarding as american officials claim torture helped capture osama bin laden but human rights defenders say violent interrogation achieves nothing. plus a show stopping performance courtesy of russia's top flight aerial displays courts . for twenty years these planes and their pilots while the world with their amazing aerobatics stunts it with our teeth to see exactly what the russian threats can do. the top story in business b.p. shares swap deal with rostam can proceed but only on condition ross they have consents to signing the arctic opportunity to take the b.p. that's the latest ruling of the arbitration court in london and we'll bring you the details in our business bulletin and it's. international news live from moscow this is r.t. with twenty four hours a day french leaders are being accused of funding an ever growing war chest while its most vulnerable citizens live on the breadline france is a problem player nato is intervention in libya and has troops stationed in other countries are reports of help french military ambition is leading to the neglect of

even waterboarding? because leon panetta has said waterboarding is torture. >> i disagree.he lawyers disagreed when we asked them for their opinion. and where we should draw the line in terms of what we could and couldn't do. waterboarding and all of the other techniques that were used are techniques that we use training our own people. this is stuff that we've done for years with own military personnel. to suggest that it's torture i just think is wrong. >> chris: so you would put it back on the table if you were the president and they got another new high-value target? >> if it were my call, i'd have the program ready to go if we captured a detainee who has vital information about next attack or new development. i think the program provides us with the capacity to collect the intelligence. again, that program together with our terrorist surveillance program, those two things i think are the most important steps we took that kept us safe for seven years. >> chris: as you know, the obama justice department reopened an investigation of half dozen c.i.a. officers for whether

and is waterboarded in 2003, 183 times according to the cia reports that have since been released on that. they didn't learn -- the cia did not learn the identity of the courier until 2007, we're being told. so four years after the waterboarding of ksm they figure out the real identity of this courier and then they are able to follow the trail that leads to bin laden. so that is a somewhat different narrative than that being pushed by those who are suggesting waterboarding or enhanced interrogation techniques was the key to breaking this case. >> michael, thank you so much for the reporting you've done on that topic. my big question today, lots of debate over whether the u.s. government should make public the pictures and the video of the killing or burial of osama bin laden. i'd like to hear your thoughts on this. you can reach me on facebook, on twi twitter. we're having a lively conference about that. and senator bob casey is a member of the senate's foreign relations committee. senator, let me ask you, if we -- if the u.s. government makes those photos or video public, are you co

since then, governor, have you decided where you stand on waterboarding? >> well, i believe my position hasn't changed, chris, in this regard. i have been all over the middle-east. i have been to iraq five times. i have been to afghanistan tree timeses. i have been to turkey and kuwait and jordan and israel and others. as to your previous point, there is a group of individuals who are radical jihaddists. we need to call them by name. they believe it's okay to kill innocent people in the name of their religion. it is not all of islam. it is not all muslims. but there is a subgroup who believe it's okay, in fact, it's their plan and design to kill innocent people. the first order of business of the united states federal government is to protect this country and the american people [applause] >> the people and the mind-set that killed 3,000 of our fellow citizens on september 11, 2001 would have killed 300,000 or 3 million or 30 million. we need to do everything we can to make sure that doesn't happen -- i support enhanced interrogation techniques under limit

and so for those who say that waterboarding doesn't work and say that it's reached out to never use again we got vital information would directly where as to why are you denying that waterboarding was in part of the tactics used to extract the intelligence that led to the successful mission no i think some of the detainees clearly were you know they used these enhanced interrogation techniques against some of these detainees no tangible proof has been presented as to how torture helped to obtain valuable intelligence i'm delighted although a detainee named kelly shaikh muhammad was reported to have provided information on a courier that led to the moderns capture intelligence sources say he repeatedly misled interrogators about the couriers identity and stalled the quest for years he was water boarded one hundred eighty three times what we're seeing is that waterboarding enhanced interrogation techniques just like professional interrogators have been saying for years always result and either limited information false information or no information the laying of the groundwork if you

security adviser john brennan went on the record this morning to also knock down the myth that waterboarding provided any intelligence that led to the location of osama bin laden and obviously there is word out today that waterboarding played a very big role or a role in actually getting the information that was in finding bin laden is not the case. so does bush really deserve any credit or is this just right wing nonsense alex sites wall is a reporter and blogger with think progress and joins me now alex welcome thanks for having me you've been looking into this digging into this checking this thing out does bush really deserve any credit i mean this is nothing more than an effort to relive again the failed bush legacy you know obama had this huge national security victory and just like we've seen in other instances of major national security incidents under obama bush apologists and conservatives are going to use this to a you know try to legitimize which is the legacy and to try to attack obama i mean you know i think the cia the military i think a lot of the intelligence complex deserves