and this is the biggest example of that with the tax returns and the irs. asked him why the president was so adamant in 2016 and 2015 about this not getting released. was it pure ego? or was it something more? did he not just want the american public to know that he didn't actually make as much money as he did? was he worried about the political ramifications of what it would mean to show the american public that he almost pays nothing in taxes, nothing in federal taxes, almost nothing beyond that? michael cohen said it wasn't necessarily that. remember, i spoke to trump voters left and right in 2015 and 2016. they didn't care about any of this, necessarily. they believed he was smarter. this is what i kept hearing. they believed he was smarter for being able to circumvent the irs. cohen says what trump was really worried about, in his estimation, was that if these taxes were released, these returns were released, professional accountants, think tanks, would go through all of these returns and point out all of the flaws that stephanie, for example, was layin

the irs does not treat me well. >> joining me, stephanie ruhle. really big picture for someone just coming to this reporting. what most stood out to you? >> what most stands out is immediately the president doesn't want to talk about this. he's saying let's dismiss it. he doesn't want this to be focused on but it needs to be. the fact that the president had write downs this big and losing this much money and wasn't paying taxes for years and years, on the face people will mock him and say oh, he's not as rich as he said he was and he'll be embarrassed by it but that's not the story. the story is did he manipulate his own books in such a way that it was illegal? if he did, that's a major problem. we know he didn't have u.s. l n lenders, he only had deutsche bank. we need to know who the lenders are. the reason this matters at the american people is not to mock the president for not being that wealthy, who particularly cares? does he have conflicts of interest that put our national security at risk? does he put his private business interest ahead of

he told the irs he lost $47 million. is that true? s the president comfortable admitting that he lost all that money in 2018 and that he's been losing hundreds of millions of dollars for years? can he just shut up and eat that, right, now that everybody's going to be able to see the figures and see officially that his business empire is a terrible and consistent failure, or can his ego not take that? will he feel obliged to disclaim what he's told the irs? will he feel obliged to claim publicly that, yeah, yeah, yeah, though losses are on paper in terms of what i told the irs. but in reality, i really am making hundreds of millions of dollars. i just told the irs otherwise so i don't have to pay taxes on it. i mean his ego is going to drive him to say that. but there's a problem. if he cops to that, the president is potentially showing the necessary intent and understanding of his actions to cross the line from obvious tax avoidance, which is legal, into obvious tax evasion, which is potentially a quite serious crime. so that's the fir

he told the irs he lost $47 million. is that true? is the president comfortable admitting he lost all that money in 2018 and he's been losing hundreds of millions of dollars for a year. can he shut up and eat that now that everybody is going to see officially that his business umpire is a terrible failure or can his ego can't take that? will he feel obliged publicly that yeah, those papers i told the irs but in reality i make hundreds of dollars. his ego is going to drive him to say that. there is a problem. the president is potentially showing the necessarily intent and the understanding of his actions to cross the line from obvious tax avoidance which isa serious crime. can the president's ego endure the public knowing of c catastrophe upon bankruptcy and failure. the second big take away here is that officially, the president appears to be up against the law financially. as the "times" puts it, his finances are under stress with hundreds of millions of debt coming through that he personally guaranteed. he's facing a battery of threa

trump got a $10 million refund from the irs. according to the book, and i'm quoting, forgive me having to clean up the profanity. can you believe how blanking stupid the irs is. who would give me a refund of blanking $10 million. they are so stupid, unquote. mr. cohen, i assume "the new york times" reporting tonight does not surprise you. >> no, it does not. one of the things i talk quite a bit about in "disloyal" donald trump's entire image and self-worth is based on his inflated actual net worth. something that this "new york times" report is going to do, i truly believe that donald trump's financial records are the rosetta stone for understanding the depth of his corruption and his crimes. the more it's unraveled, the more you're going to see donald trump unravel. it's the reason he's fighting so hard to keep it under wraps. >> i do want to ask you about one particular passage in the report. i'm going to read it, and then i'd like to get your reaction to it. in the report the "times" writes, quote, the data contains no new rev

trump's disdain for the irs is something that leaps out at me. i'm thinking of a passage in michael choohen, his former fix who then went on to jail, came out with a book that actually the trump administration tried to suppress. and he talks about a scene where trump basically has all of this disdain for the irs. and he's like, can you imagine them giving a bleeping, you know, millions of dollars refund to me? what losers they are. and again, when somebody tells you they have something to hide, believe them. that's part of the moral of the story here, is that it turns out that donald trump wasn't just, you know, withholding his tax returns from the american people on a point of principle, but because he had something to hide. and again, this is unbelievable information not to have been presented to the american people four years ago, when he ran for president, not to be presented now, in 2020. it's just -- it's a breathtaking disclosure of a president of the united states who literally, literally, appears to be covering up serious potential wrongd

i mean, i think there is a lot of fodder in here for the irs to dig into. i think what's really important amid all the numbers and everything that's coming out in this is you have in the numbers a portrait of a president as a con man and a long-term grifter. donald trump is probably the most successful con man in modern history and he's wound up in the white house. he's been perverting public policy and corrupting people around him including members of his own cabinet and children in service of that. when you see what's in these numbers, that can't be denied any longer. >> you know, when the whole -- whether it's years from now or whenever the whole truth comes out, i mean, what a tail this is of our times that we have been riding along in. time o'brian, appreciate it. reaction now from the white house. john, what did the president have to say when asked about this? >> anderson, he said exactly what you would expect. he didn't address the specifics in his massive new york times expose, but he deflected, said i paid a lot of state taxes. he criticized "the ne

not new to the irs. why has this been allowed to persist if it's rauzing so many red flags? >> it's not uncommon for investigations the prolong, particularly when the defendant as in this case or the person under investigation is willing to stay the statute of limitations to giver the irs more time and it is unusual to prosecute a case while the president is in office but i have faith in both the congressional committees overseeing this with an important role and in the irs loon level investigators to get in right particularly after the current commissioner is gone. >> is he shielded being in the white house and would he be shielded if he won re-election? >> he is shielded from criminal investigation so to the extent it might be something the irs to defer to the doj or criminal investigation they can't do that right now because they won't prosecute a setting president so that limits the irs in some ways. typically part of the issue with very serious fraud is the irs says, look, maybe settle and this doesn't develop further. there's a partial shield but i don't think it's impe

trump got a $10 million refund from the irs. and according to the book, he said, and i'm quoting, forgive me having to clean up some of the profanity. he said, "can you believe how blanking stupid the irs is? who would give me a refund of $10 blanking million? they are so stupid." mr. cohen, i assume that "the new york times" reporting tonight does not surprise you. >> no, it does not, and one of the things that i talk quite a bit about in "disloyal" is that donald trump's entire image, his self-worth, is based on his inflated actual net worth and something that this "new york times" report is going to do for -- this is -- i truly believe that donald trump's financial records are the rosetta stone for understanding the depth of his corruption and his crimes and the more that it's unraveled, the more that you're going to see donald trump unravel. and it's the reason that he's fighting so hard to keep it under wraps. >> i do want to ask you about one particular passage in the report. i'm going to read it and then i'd like to get yo

there's a lot of fodder here for the irs to dig into. i think what's really important amid all of the numbers and everything that's coming out in this is, you have in the numbers a portrait of a president as a con man and a long-term drifter. donald trump is probably the most successful con man in modern history and he's wound up in the white house and he's been perverting public policy and corrupting people around him including members of his own cabinet and his own children in service of that. when you see what's in the numbers, that can't be denied any longer. >> you know, when the whole -- whether it's years from now or whenever the whole truth comes out, what a tale this is of our times that we have been riding along in. ti tim o'brien, thank you. what did the president have to say when asked about this? >> reporter: he said exactly what you would expect. he didn't address the specifics in this massive "new york times" expose. he deflected, said, well, i paid a lot of state taxes. he criticized the "new york times," said they were go

losses that trump then used to avoid paying the irs. and as for the money that he does make, during the president's first two years in the white house $73 million from overseas, mostly from the golf courses but also from licensing deals in several countries including turkey and the philippines and also brings in money from other businesses that he has refused to die vest from, among the d.c.-based trump international hotel which is a rise in business from those eager to get in the president's good graces even as the property loses money overall. none of this though is enough to offset what lies ahead, loans and debts totalling $421 million with most of it coming due within the next 4 years. that means a second term could make trump who's personally responsible for much of it and the office of the presidency vulnerable. i want to bring in adam davidson, a writer for "the new yorker" following the trump's finances and in particular the golf courses. what is your takeaway from the expose? >> it's fabulous work, obviously, by "the new york t

the director of irs information is key. it means the fafsa won't need to ask questions about things we already know. that will make more students likely to complete the process and attend college and we can be assured of the quality and accuracy of the data we're receiving. we should not need to subject so many families to verification. frankly a burden for schools as well. i hope you will enact, in fact, additional legislation that will leverage the expanded irs data in the future act to further streamline the process. while schools like mine could use that expanded tax information right now for awarding our own funds, its value could be multiplied. i have thoughts how this could make things easier and equitable which i outlined in my written testimony and would be happen to comment on. in my written testimony i applaud many ideas in the fafsa simplification act, removing questions not related to finances and making the fafsa easy for those in simple situations without sacrificing information for people with complex situati

a decades-long battle with the irs, loads of debt, and a struggling business empire. the question is will the president make good on the more than $400 million in debt that will soon come due? >>> and just one day until the first presidential debate, if you can believe that. the question is how nasty will it get? it's "way too early" for this. ♪ >>> good morning and welcome to "way too early," the show that is getting ready for an incredibly busy week. i am kasie hunt on this monday, september 28th. we'll start as always with the news. "the new york times" yesterday began publishing a series of reporting that examinen 20 years worth of the president's tax returns. they're here, folks, revealing financial losses in the milli millions, an audit battle over a tax refund, and payment of almost no federal income tax. the "times" reports in 2016 and again for 2017, president trump paid -- get this -- $750 in federal income tax. but for ten of the previous 15 years he paid none at all because he reported losses that eliminated his tax liability. the paper says they don't have

the irs declined to comment but said it works the social security database. so yes, hope any soon, it told us, and that's what happened. >> four days after you spoke with them, i got my check. so i was doing happy dance at that point. >> reporter: she received a refund of $4,400. enough to pay off her husband's funeral. unfortunately, we couldn't talk her into re-creating that dance for us. >> i think i'll spare you that. >> look, we've been checking back with all the people we've been helping out to make sure they got their checks from the irs. almost every single one said they have. we checked with the irs. they said still be very, very patient that they're still not up to speed. i have to tell you, they're doing a pretty good job right now. >> that's good to hear. >> yeah. >> all right. let's turn our attention to the weather. >> spencer christian is with us for the forecast. hi there. >> hi, fall happens to be my favorite season and we've got some pretty favorable weather. look for mainly clear skies inland. it will push across the bay. overnight low temp

it is essential that the irs's presidential audit program remain free of interference. s mr. trump's tax returns and ensure it's operating effectively. i remain confident that the law is on the committee's side. our case is very strong and we will ultimately prevail, unquote that is a statement from chairman richard neil, a democrat who chairs the ways and means committee. >> congressman doggett. >> sure. >> what's the gap now in your understanding between what we read in the times now and what you would like to learn if you had the dull dmumts your zbloond well, certainly i agree. i think it is important to be sure that the audit function is done correctly. we know that donald trump hid behind the audit but we're unsure how he has been able to perhaps to ma any late audit since he hired secretary mnuchin and hired the irs commissioner, but beyond that narrow question of how the audits function, we need the rest of the tax returns. the times wasn't able to get the last two years. we need to know what role donald trump and his administration played, including special tax

the director of irs information is key. if we don't need to make -- answer questions about what we are now that will make it easier for students attend college and be assured of the quality and the accuracy of this data we are seeking. a roadblock for many students in a burden for schools as well. i hope you'll enact additional legislation that will leverage the expanded irs data in the future act to further streamline the process. while schools like mine could use that expanded tax information right now for our own fund its value could be multiplied exponentially. i have several specific thoughts on how to make things easier and more equitable which i outlined in my written testimony not be happy to comment on the question-and-answer. also i've had many of the ideas and responses particular moving questions that are not related to finances and making it easier for those of situations and making easier for those in complex situation. i would not only look to see a fafsa that contains enough information to eliminate any need

the director of irs information is key. it means the fafsa won't need to ask questions about things we know. that will make more students likely to complete the process and attend cleollege and we cane assured of the quality of the data we're receiving. and frankly a burden for schools as well. i hope you will enact in fact additional legislation that will leverage the expanded irs day a ta in the future act to further streamline the process. while schools like mine could use that expanded trax information now for awarding our own funds, its value could be multiplied. i have several specific thoughts on how this could make things easier and more equitable, which i outline in my recent testimony and would be happy to comment on. also in my written testimony, i have many of the ideas and the simplification act, particularly removing questions that are not related to finances and making the fafsa easier for those in simple situations without sacrificing information for people in complex situations. i would love to see a fafsa t

the irs does not treat me well. >> david, before you joined, dr. greer was making the point that none of this will actually move the needle with his base, but i do wonder if there are vote who are are undecided who are going to be reading this reporting then seeing how the president is responding. if that will factor into their choice of who to vote for in the run-up to november. >> who knows. i really -- you never know what mood people could change their vote. one thing that's important for me, it's important for voters to see the world as donald trump sees it. there's always been a part of his world we could never see, that was his business. he knows what's happening there, knows the problems, perils, pressures, business is presenting to him. he knows who his customers are, who's helping him, who's not. we don't. it's impossible to really understand the way he's acting as president and until you see that part of his life. now we see that. voters see him maybe not completely in full but understand him and see the world the way he does. it's an impo

something that even the irs commissioner has said isn't true. but, really, also this comes down as a question of what voters believe when they see the president. because for years, pam, you know that the president has portrayed himself as this successful businessman who stepped away from making money go and be president. that's something that you still hear from voters today. and this extensive report in "the new york times" not only goes to show how the president tried to pay no taxes at all for several years of the documents that they obtained, but when he did pay taxes, he paid very little, including $750 in federal income taxes in 2016 or 2017. but when he did pay taxes, he also got a big refund from the federal government. something that we are now learning from this "new york times" report, this "new york times" expose, really, is even under irs audit as well. so really changing this narrative that the president has tried to portray not just since he's been running for president, pam, but for his entire life as a business mogul in new york.

but i don't see any hope of that unless congress comes along and tells the irs to start rigorously startnforcing the tax laws, which they're not. >> so based on everything you've gleaned now and you've read through, what more information would you want to know to complete the financial picture of donald trump? or do you think now we do have the complete financial picture? >> oh, we're not even close. but back in 1990 when i revealed trump was not a billionaire, called me a liar until he had to confess it was true, he had personally guaranteed loans. he has over $300 million out of what's a total of over a billion dollars in loans because not all the loans show up on the tax return or his disclosure statements. $300 million of personally guaranteed loans that will come due during a second trump administration if he pins in november. real billionaires don't have personally guaranteed loans. they have assets. they use their assets as collateral. and to whom is this money owed? do you think any bank in the united states is going to foreclose on the president who appointed the banking regulat

do you think someone within the irs wanted to see these go public? >> i think it's more likely someone, for example, at trump's accounting firm wanted to see them go public. there's been a huge battle here in the courts over those tax returns. and, in fact, his accountant -- accounting firm was actually willing to comply but had to wait for the supreme court of the united states to issue a ruling along those lines. so it seems that since that ruling has delayed release until after the election, i wouldn't be surprised if someone at the accounting firm took it in his or her hands to release these before the election. >> and what about the legal vulnerability of his company? >> well, his company very well could have -- is more likely to have liability than him because the company itself is, you know, making these statements and it's a little bit easier to prove that the company is doing so woefully than it is for trump individually because trump's own head can be difficult to decipher in terms of his intent. so i think there is potential liability for h

you just keep getting more money and not be taken down by the irs. talking about the fact that the places where there are the most audits are in poor, rural, and particularly for the black poor, that they are much more likely to be audited and congress has asked the irs to report on why it audits the poor more than the affluent. and its response from the irs has been that it doesn't have enough money and people to audit the wealthy properly. so it audits the poor. so if donald trump were a poor person or a person of color, he'd likely have been audited and maybe in jail. >> i am so glad you brought that up. because we've had those discussions where if you're eligible for an income tax cut you're making $30,000 a year, you're eligible for the child tax credit, it can mean several thousand dollars in your pockets. and to hear privileged members of the senate just whine about these tax breaks, these tax refunds, they're refundable tax credits that low-income people get and they have continued to push the irs to audit them more aggressively if they can fi

a decade long audit by the irs over the legitimacy of $73 million tax refund trump received. adverse ruling could cost mr. trump more than $100 million. he's personally responsible for loans and other debts totaling $421 million most of it coming due within four years. that means if he's re-elected his lenders might have to decide whether to foreclose on a sitting president. one of the things i thought about reading this, christine, did the lenders have a full picture of all of this? were they surprised when they were reading this report, just as we all were, how much of this has he revealed to those lenders. >> this is somebody saying he's lost money on just about everything. it's at odds with the public image he has tried to craft. side-by-side comparisons here. joe biden paid more than $3.7 million. kamala harris paid more than half a million. bernie sanders 344,000. elizabeth warren, 268,000. take a look at what past presidents paid in their first year in office from bill clinton's $63,000. barack obama paid $1.8 million. >> the contrast there is spark but insisting he co

the irs is saying it was too much. trump has been fighting it. hat's interesting is, if the president loses the audit, he could have to pay the federal government $100 million in penalties and fines. >> you've covered the president since he first launch his campaign. how do you think he will fight this and do you think it will hurt president trump in the long run? >> you saw what the president did sunday night in the briefing room. anything he wants to knock down is given the stamp of fake news. it's going to be hard when an average american who makes $20,000 a year they pay $750 a year in federal income tax. that's going to be hard for donald trump to hit the campaign trail and say he's out there for the little guy. especially where this campaign is being fought out in the rust belt. >> lastly, the big debate is tomorrow night. what are you expecting? >> i think it's going to be a brutal debate. for many americans it's going to be a time where you get to make a decision. most of the country according to our new abc news "washington post" poll has

and now he's standing with this dispute with the irs. and if there's anything we know about donald trump, it's simply the motivation of money. a loot of things he does are hard to understand and explain, but money is the most salient thing with him. but now here he is potentially coming into the end of his presidency and having to resolve that. how is that going to be dealt with? why is it we don't know more about that? it just seems to cut to the heart of what the presidency is and what potential conflict of interest is. but once again, donald trump testing the system, testing us in a way that if we sat here we could not have drawn up on a white board. >> well, it might cut to the heart of what's ailing this presidency, because everything that's driving him could be explained or at least partially explained by what we're finding in these returns. even his sort of scrambling to hold onto the presidency because leaving the presidency might not be a pretty picture for donald trump. >> it will not be a pretty picture. >> still ahead on "morn

there may be crimes that the irs is not necessarily aware of. if you see that the president of the united states looks like he is coming into debtor is in debt up to $421 million, aside from the question of who does he owe that money to and who put up that money for him, the question is what representations did he make about his own assets in getting that loan? that is something you would only know if you understood the representations to the lending person or the institution and that's not reflected in the tax returns. it's unclear whether a law has been broken. >> a line is there. what is the line, using the tax code to your advantage and illegally evading taxes, at some point i assume it has to be a line that is crossed. >> yeah. so it depends on the particular statute or regulation or tax rule that you violate. that's one way of crossing the line. that does not cause you to being criminal with the tax code. this has to be criminal. we did a lot of tax fraud cases when i was united states attorney. the tough thing to crack whether it's a deduc

are doing their assessment, we have been negotiating for a long time, things get settled like in the irswhen you are under audit, you do not do that. we are under audit, the story is totally fake. we had the same exact questions usually asked by the same people and that took place four years ago. it is incredible. if you look at the filings i have, i think i have a 108 pages of filings for all those different companies that do very well, obviously, because the filings -- nobody talks about that. you will learn much more if you look at those filings that i have to file every single year, but you will learn much more. those filings are very complete, they are very big, very powerful, they are very accurate. those are the filings that you will learn much more -- when it is done, when you're under audit, you just do not release them. they treat me -- i am talking to him, you should be more respectful of this gentleman. i will tell you that i look forward to releasing that, i look forward to releasing many things. i'm going to release many things, people are going to be very shocked. the new

the irs, somebody at the irs leaked a document.obama years. you saw what happened in 2013 and 2014 when the irs was targeting conservative groups. now they are targeting my father because is he doing a great job and they don't like him. you better believe, guys. i'm sorry for being so passionate about this. buff you better believe that every single day between now and elections they will have another quote unquote october surprise. first it was the atlantic story and bob woodward book. and now it's the "new york times" nonsense. and they try and discredit my father. first of all, we have a great company. we are one of the lowest debt real estate companies. we have the best assets in the world. the fact that they try and discredit what this man has built before politics is incredible. i mean, any person in the world would envy to be in donald trump's shoes. he truly is the american dream. not only a great business guy he went on to win the presidency. they want to take him down three weeks before the election. guys, they are disgust

audit. >> the irs doesn't treat me well. they treat me like they treated the tea party. they don't treat me well. they treat me very badly. you have people in the irs that -- they treat me very badly. they're under audit. >> trump boasted about trying to avoid paying taxes. >> i fight like hell to pay as little as possible. can i say that? i have legally used the tax laws to my benefit. i fight very hard because this country wastes our money. >> reporter: according to "the new york times" trump paid only $750 of income taxes in 2016. in between 2015 he paid taxes only five times because most years he reported losing millions more than he earned. >> you made about $250 million in the last year? >> $605 million. >> reporter: while "the new york times" said it won't reveal the actual records to avoid revealing its sources, they reveal that the write-offs are more than $70,000 paid for hair cuts. more than $95,000 for ivanka trump's hair and make-up artist. approximately $200 million for trump and donald trump jr.

the state of new york and the irs share information. there are other people who would have this information for various reasons. you can believe, and i can tell you as a longtime former reporter for "the new york times" this story was gone over by editor after editor. i had one story with 30 editors weighing in on them and all of it will hold up just as the 2018 story, my 2017 coverage of donald's 2005 tax return has held up. >> what still don't we know? what questions are out there about his taxes that voters deserve to have answered? >> i think the single most important question is to what degree did donald trump get money from foreign governments or foreign entities? the oligarchs report to their boss, vladimir putin. to what extent -- we know trump got money and we know there are cases i and others have written about these deals were not normal business deals. they make no sense when examined as business deals, but perfect sense as either money laundering or payoffs. the second thing we need to be concerned about is donald has person

the irs does not treat me well. ey treat me like they traded the tea party -- treated the tea party. they treat me very badly. me veryn the irs treat badly. but they are under audit and when they are not i would proud to show, but that's just fake news. times is doing anything they can. so stories that i read are fake. they are so funny. -- phony. bernardt's start with calling from new york, new york on the republican line. good morning. caller: good morning. first of all, i believe the president donald trump. he has never lied to me yet so i certainly believe what he says. hello?of all -- host: you are on the air. no head. caller: did you hear what i said already? host: yes. go ahead. caller: i will tell you something about lies. george orwell. and the bible says there will come a day when the lie will become the truth, the truth alive. people who are on the web who believe in the lie think somebody telling the truth is telling the lie. let me tell you a story nobody's talking about. you know who started black lives

we need to bulk of the irs for these audits. we need to reinstate, to fix the tax code with what trump did and that big tax bill that 70%, as you point out, 70% of the tax cuts goes to the richest 1% of people. we need to fix that. and we need to make sure we strengthen the earned income tax credit and child tax credit. that's for working families making $30,000, $40,000, $50,000 a year that the tax system is better to them than it has been. and a little tougher -- a whole lot tougher on the wealthy. >> when he tells you tonight it was the biggest tax cut ever. it was the biggest tax cut for the wealthiest americans and for corporate america. i do want to ask about another risk, though. vp nominee kamala harris was on my colleague lawrence o'donnell's show last night. and i want to share what she said is her biggest concern about the president and his finances. >> who does he owe the money to? tell us. who do you owe the money to? and do you owe debt to any foreign nation? do you -- you know, do you own debt, do you owe money? yo

when did he not pay the irs? and what he tweeted about the revealing details after midnight >>> with just 36 days until the election, we'll get a preview of the first presidential debate and a look at new polls as joe biden and donald trump prepare to square off on prime tithe television >>> joe montana confronts abintruder who grabs his grand child inside his home. >>> brain eatingamated a 6-year-old victim and a warning to all people living nearby >>> all your week three nfl highlights and a ground breaking moments as we kick off your monday "early today" starts right now >> good morning. i'm philip mena. >> and i'm frances rivera. with just a month until election day, a new report could reshape the race for the white house this morning, "the new york times" headline says it all. trump's taxes show chronic losses, audit battle, and income tax avoidance. according to the report, the president paid no federal income tax at all for 10 of the past 15 years because he lost so much money and only paid $750 in 2016 and

you have people in the irs. they treat me very badly, but they are under order. i would be proud to show. that is fakeness. the new york times want to create a little bit of a story. they are doing anything they can. that is the least of it. the stories that i read are so fake, so phony. >> [indiscernible] they only do negative stories. i do not think -- i used to get new stories -- good stories in the new york times and i happen to be conservative, republican. they predicted by loss four years ago. they did not apologize for that better reporting, that they predicted the fbi. that is proven to be a hoax. they got pulitzer prizes along with the washington post. they should give all of those prizes back because everything is wrong. there reporting was so bad, they were wrong. there are people who should get pulitzer prizes, solomon, carter. they are not in the business of pulitzer prizes but sean hannity got it, lou dobbs got it, laura got it, dr. got it. other than great ratings, i do not know what they get. on the new york times story, you have to understand that

one is he's lying to the irs and he actually hasn't sustained all those losses. he's using fake losses to eliminate income tax liability. and then the other possibility on it is that the question of how are these losses being sustained over time and what other possibly secret and including possibly foreign sources of support are coming in underneath these losses that would otherwise wipe out some other businessman? >> well, i'll add a third option to that, lawrence. he may just be a really, really bad businessman and that he failed in new jersey when he got an influx of money from his father and that went all to waste. he squandered it all with bad investments, six bankruptcies. then he was able to renew himself with "the apprentice," and the times reports he made over $400 million from various aspects of "the apprentice" and his role in that, but that's all been squandered through losses, through bad golf course investments and otherwise. so, yes, there certainly could be write-offs that are unwarranted and unsupported. i have no doubt based on my experience inve

the irs does not treat me well. the irs does not treat me well. did me like bd party, like they treated the tea party, and they treated the tea party, and they don't fit me well. they fit me very badly. you have people in the irs that treat me very, very badly. but they are under audit. and if they were not i would be proud to show, but that is just fake news. the new york timesjust but that is just fake news. the new york times just want to create a little bit of a story. they do anything they can. you know, that is the least of it. the stories that i read are so they, they are so fake. —— they are so they, they are so fake. —— they are so fake. joining me now is our north america correspondent peter bowes, who is in los angeles. various groups have been trying to get their hands on president trump's tax returns for many yea rs trump's tax returns for many years now. what do these documents show? it is certainly a persistent story. the new york times says it has managed to get hold of data of the president's tax affairs dating back decades, not o

the documents also show a history of massive write-offs, ongoing battle with the irs over a nearly $73 million tax refund and a money boon thanks to his presidency. the president facing a coming huge money crunch, personally on the hook for $420 million of debt and loans and most coming due within the next four years. the president dismisses the story as fake news and lawyers say he paid millions in taxes since 2016. a former top irs lawyer frames the avoidance this way. >> they fund effect, right in they fund health care, social security, building roads, they fund administering the system and army. and we all pitch in to do that. i think most people pay more for their rent per month than he paid in taxes that year. >> let's get to cara scanel. the reporting is stunning. raises a ton of questions. >> reporter: this is an extensive report by "the new york times" combing through 20 years of tax returns. here's a bit of the story they patient. they show that the president had made a fortune several hundreds of millions of dollars from his work on the apreprentice and licensing deals and l

and expenses on the tax return to the irs. re are conflicts between those, as you say you would expect they would be more or less similar. if there are conflicts in the misrepresenting in one place and another. whoever you have been providing the wrong information to has a legal action against you. >> what did you see in the reporting from the "new york times" that popped your eyebrow? >> what's interesting is i have always told people there's a limited amount you learn from a tax return. you'll have income and deductions and the chartable contribution. it doesn't tell you anything about your asset and liability. or who you are in business with. you need to know more for instance you wouldn't know how much you owe and when it's due on just the straightforward tax return. the article talks about tax records. concludes the writers have more than just the tax return and have tax records that give them information such as how much money is owed and when it's coming due. >> when you look at how the tax return shows the president and

things get settled like in the irs but right now when you are under audit you don't do it. you don't do that. so we're under audit, but the story is a total fake and all of this, we had the same exact questions usually asked by the same people and that took place four years ago, you remember that. >> for the record, an irs does not prevent the release of tax returns. the times report also details financial losses and potential conflicts. john harwood has more. >> on the eve of the first presidential debate between donald trump and joe biden a bombshell report in "the new york times" reporting that the president paid only $750 in taxes the first year he was president and a broader picture of a president under financial pressure who was relying on his status as president to keep himself afloat financially. this "new york times" report says in 10 of the previous 15 years before he became president donald trump paid no income taxes. says he has $300 million in loans that he has personally guaranteed coming due within the next four years. potential loss of another $100 million fr

this is information the trump organization was providing to the irs. it's not some random figures that are out there that someone made up. this is what the trump organization was saying to the irs. and paying. as we said, he didn't want to talk about it today which is odd because he's had plenty to say on the subject in the past such as here in a tweeted photo of him sitting next to a stack of papers back in februay of 2016. one of the years he reportedly paid $750. signing a recent tax return he writes. isn't this ridiculous? and yeah, yet again, a tweet for everything. or a sound byte. here he is a few months later boasting about not paying any taxes at all. >> the only years that anybody has ever seen for a couple years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license and they showed he didn't pay federal income tax. >> that makes me smart. >> smart he told her. that's what he said back then because the government would only waste his money. >> responded -- >> you haven't paid any federal income tax for a

and he's going back and forth with the irs. we don't know what the outcome of that case is going to be. but it does lend credence to the statement by the president that he had been under audit. >> john, stand by. i want to go to jeremy diamond inside the room during this press conference. interesting soon as the president got questions about the tax returns he started to pivot to more friendly questioners. >> reporter: that's right, ana. no question. the president essentially was eager to say fake news as relates to this "new york times" report but wasn't willing to take any questions about this other than a handful at the beginning. this president is refusing to essentially address a fundamental question of transparency as it relates to his finances. we know, of course, these were questions litigated during the 2016 presidential election as well. the president then as he did now claiming that this audit is preventing him from being able to release his tax returns. that's not true at all. the president could decide if he wanted

yes, his accountants or the irs. it to the "new york times" they would be violating the law. those documents are privileged and personal and troublesomed be the idea if a government employee gave them over. i don't know if they are in the hands of the manhattan d.a. this is troubling. we have long had severe criminal penalties for the release of private information like your tax returns for a good reason. this is privileged and should not be a matter of public discussion until the individual in question wants it to be so. kevinyy is serious and is right to say there needs to be an investigation. the "new york times" did not violate a law by publishing it. but the individual who gave did to them, who leaked those documents to them could be in violation of the law. >> melissa: martha, the "new york times" doesn't have to hand over its source. but i don't think it could be somebody inside the trump organization. i was speak of his personal accountants. if it's his personal tax return it would only be the person who prep

president inflating and deflating the value of his assets depending on whether he's reporting to the irs or reporting that income to get a loan from a bank. is it your belief that what we're seeing according to the times from the documents they have reviewed is an accurate portrayal of the president's assets, or is it potentially something he has deflated in order to lower his -- his tax bills? >> well, i think that that's possibly part of the attorney general of new york as well as cy vance, the d.a. here in new york, their allegations and their complaints that have been filed against the trump organization and mr. trump. however, i think as it relates to "the new york times" reporting, and of course, what does the president say? it's fake, it's not real. it is. it's not -- he doesn't even know, if you look at his body language, i talk a lot about that in the book as well. his body language tells a lot about him. he's right now, he's lost. he's confused. he's dazed. he's not sure what to answer. he doesn't know how to answer it. because it's hard to answer and to refute something which

the irs does not treat me well. >> let's bring in david westin who has been following the story.avid, tell us more about what the report is saying or what the indications are -- the implications are here ? very lengthy report from new york times who of gone over two decades of his tax returns and he is not pay taxes and a lot of years, 10 out of 15. $750.ar he was is notys number one he paying a lot of income tax which is not good for president and the number two the reason he is not paying his because he is not been that successful as a businessman. he says it's fake news but that is the upshot of the report. how does this play into the campaign narrative and coming up in the presidential debate this week? david: you know how he will be in that first debate. it will be a big subject of the debate. no question. joe biden will raise it if no one else raises it. at the same time, right now i think president trump the more time he spends away from covid-19, his response to it and the economy the better, ironically. this is distracting us and he will say he is really smart yet really

the irs does not treat me well. : that was president from speaking with night after that bombshell new york times report that he paid only $750 in taxes and no taxes in 10 of the last 15 years. his collegeor more professor of political science. the actual implication of a tax avoidance of any kind is no big deal to the average voter. how does it change the narrative today, monday, as a supreme court justice was picked into the debate 24 hours to go? >> it was a bombshell. the new york times got access to these records. as far as i know nobody outside the times has seen them because they are protecting sources. we are going on what they are writing. this is the first we understand in a series of stories they are going to be putting out. i think the implications for the debate are that it throws into the debate that was already full of major stories from the supreme court appointment to the pandemic to the economy another big story that harkens back to 2016 which is how much did the president make? is he telling the tr

audit. >> the irsoes not treat me well, they treat me like the tea party, like they treated the tea party. they don't treat me well, they treat me very badly. you have people in the irs, they treat me very, very badly. but they're under audit. >> reporter: trump previously boasted about trying to avoid paying taxes. >> i fight like hell to pay as little as possible. can i say that? i have legally used the tax laws to my benefit. i fight very hard, because this country wastes our money. >> reporter: according to the "new york times," trump paid only $750 in federal income taxes in 2016. and between 2000 and 2015, he paid taxes only five times because most years he reported losing millions more than he earned. >> you made what, $250 million in the last year? >> $605 million. >> okay. >> reporter: while "the new york times" says it will not publish the actual records to avoid revealing its sources, the article reveals among the write-offs trump has taken over the years are more than $70,000 for haircuts w