he hated bob mueller as we all know. the difference here is that as president, he could threaten to fire bob mueller at any time. he had control over him. the difference here with mr. smith is that he's a citizen, and he cannot threaten to fire him so mr. smith can do his work without worrying that the president of the united states is going to chop his head off, and he said today that this will go forward expeditiously. i'm sure the trump people are worried that this is going to hang over their campaign like a -- like a soggy, wet tent, but on the other hand, they also know that donald trump is very good at playing the victim as he did after the search at mar-a-lago, and he's very likely to do it again. >> and john, cue the opo research that team trump is no doubt doing right now? >> sure. >> they can't come up with anything, and i remember this from robert mueller the conspiracy theories from the trump team and right wing media. >> facts will have nothing to do with the full frontal assault on this guy. bob mueller was

the last time there was a special counsel investigating donald trump, it was bob mueller, and donald trump was holding something that no one in america has other than, i guess, on the monopoly board. he was holding a get out of jail free card. there was nothing that was going to come from doj that was going to try to send him to jail then. donald trump doesn't have that card anymore. he is a citizen, albeit a citizen running for office, which is part of why garland says he had to make this decision and make this new office to provide independence of a special counsel probe. so, where do we go from here? is this an escalation, a status quo, a punt? we're going to get into all of that over the course of this hour. i can tell you this is the story that no one predicted coming today that has huge repercussions that some in trumpworld were very scared of, and now, it's here. so, let's bring in two former u.s. attorneys, exactly the type of people who have made these tough calls before. joyce vance and david kelly, who, full disclosure, was my former boss when i practiced law. welcome to b

go back to the days of kent star and bill clinton, go back to bob mueller.idn't trust bob mueller. >> those are independent under the statute. >> right, but people say special counsel, independent prosecutor, someone who's appointed in order to avoid a conflict. people now particularly if you're a donald trump supporter believe there is no way to avoid a conflict, that it's all corrupt, that the justice department is corrupt. so merrick garland was going to be damned one way or another. and so we had a choice to make, and he decided to kind of say, look, you know, one president to be, wano be has announced and the other one has the intention to announce, so what am i supposed to do? i want to make it look optically as clean as i possibly can. >> ron desantis says what? >> you'd have to ask him. i don't speak for the governor of florida. >> but what do you think someone who wants to run against donald trump, i'm not saying he does but hypothetically another republican candidate who wants to run for president says what? >> i think there's going to be outreach

so, the playbook he ran against bob mueller was successful in convincing those people.n convince the same about jack smith, and merrick garland, or really anyone else. ultimately, i think that will be irrelevant to the disposition of the case. i believe that republicans, in congress, will try to attack the justice department, will subpoena records, and try to bring people from the department in for interviews, to try to interfere with this case. i suspect that they will follow long-standing precedent and, we'll tell them to go pound sand. they had no business interfering with an ongoing federal investigation. they will have political goals, in trying to use this investigation to strengthen his standing in the republican party,. and strengthen his standing with the primary electorate. ultimately, it will have little bearing on what happens inside of the justice department and on their decision whether to bring charges or not. >> matt miller, former chief spokesman for the justice department during the obama administration, always a pleasure. greatly appreciate your time

i wonder though if you look back right to bob mueller, and special counsel the investigation then under the department -- attorney general bill barr and how he wants that probe was complete, not move forward with any charges against the former president. how is this going to be different now that he is no longer president and merrick garland as the attorney general? >> it's a great example to talk about. i got, and we had a stellar person as special counsel right everybody understanding that mueller was the guy, from fair, neutral objective. fantastic and look we still had a manipulation of his findings by an attorney general who answered to the current president. we don't have that here, the person being investigated is a former president, the pressure that evil barr has admitted to, who told us publicly in this book financial views that he had immense pressure from the white house. we don't have that here, so that is good news and we appear not to have somebody as manipulated and merrick garland as bill barr appears to have been. don't forget, bill barr appointed john durham in a spec

special counsels like bob mueller and then you won, jack smith, our semi independent or mostly independenthe end of the day, it's merrick garland who will have to make the final determination. i think two things help answer your question. hopefully to your satisfaction. one is, he's not purchasing many -- very much distance between himself and the special counsel. he is still in command. he is still in control. he still makes the final decision. and the other i think is a little bit softer as a factor. you have, in the department of justice, the best big case law firm on the planet. the best investigators, the best agents, the most experienced, the deepest bench. i don't see any reason why they cannot do this and do it well. but again, look, carol will tell you this, as prosecutors we know this is more art than science. we argue all the time about who we should charge and when we should charge and how we should charge. the fact that i disagrees pretty much meaningless and, in any event, i'm not the attorney general. >> it's good to hear that. watching this as an outsider that doesn't have

. >> that didn't stop the former president and his allies from attacking bob mueller who had impeccableant to get to other cnn news that we're learning here and that is the january 6th committee will be interviewing and speaking with some of the secret service agents who were in the president's motorcade on january 6th. we heard from cassidy hutchinson. obviously she's not there. but she told the story of how the president seemed to lean forward to the driver, was very angry when he wasn't allowed to go to the capitol. how important would their testimony be? >> bianna, it's quite important. we all remember that stunning testimony by cassidy hutchinson about the president's -- former president's extremely strong reaction in the motorcade when he couldn't go with his followers to the capitol on january 6th. immediately after that happened, there were anonymous allegations attributed to the secret service that she was not telling the truth. well, now the information has come out as we learn more and more evidence. it corroborates that story. that means that if there were -- there was an or

bob mueller's must be the gold standard, that is of a cap hearing, what you know about this jack smith? does he have a sterling reputation you're kind of laughed when he said he was supposed to be nonpartisan, do you know? >> something look at him and say he's not partisan. that's yet to be determined. we'll see if you'll be nonpartisan. i have got to go but i look republicans did not go after hillary clinton for donald trump or one whole e-mail scandal and secure information on a private server, you know what? we don't want to look like the victor is going after the vanquished. she more than likely committed a crime but that does not look good. democrats are like lists are all the history out of america must go to a third world banana state country were people in power go after their political enemies for this is a new frontier for america with not seen before think it's a scary frontier. i would not wish it on any country especially america for. >> the next two years will be interesting for sure. new details and the horrific murder of university of idaho students that point to who th

david, you are sticking with me because next the new special counsel investigating trump, how bob mueller'sat the job could sway how jack smith operates. plus, the senate -- codify same-sex marriage into law. what is next for the bill in the house. first richard louis with the other big stories that we are tracking this hour at nbc nbc. richard? >> alicia, good sunday to. you free agent -- addendum junior was escorted off an american airlines flight in miami sunday. miami police say the flight crew noticed beckham going in and out of consciousness on board that flight. the flight crew called police out of concern for his health. he was removed without incident. thousands of civilians fled the ukrainian city of kherson today, russia launching heavy artillery attacks in the area. the exodus is just weeks after ukraine's military liberated the city from russian occupation. this comes on the 90th anniversary of the catastrophic famine engineered by joseph stalin. and over 25 million -- delay today during -- dozens of flights also canceled altogether. some 55 million americans planned to travel,

the first time around, we all know at this point, was bob mueller. at that point, donald trump was president, he is no longer president right now. he is technically, essentially, a private citizen running for president, come 2024. how does this change the game when it comes to this appointment? >> significantly. we have, throughout the course of his post tenure in office, been asking the question, what sort of rights and protections that's a former president have after he has lost office? resoundingly, the courts have repeatedly led to the notion that, not much. not many protections. i think that's something that gives donald trump a sense of two unspoken ways of truck, and filing police to block the investigation, he's going to find very little success if any recent precedent is an indicator, because most courts have decided that you are civilian. you are a private citizen. and the executive privilege, any privilege protection you had, enjoyed, you no longer do. >> let's get to the million dollar question, charles, if he. well everyone kind of waiti

bob mueller and people who work before him also experience that.a tough guy from my previous memories of interviewing him, back when he was under the spotlight for how he was handling various congressional corruption investigations against members of both parties. but i'm not sure how anything can prepare him for what he's about to go through now. so, i'm interested to see what pressures will be brought to bear on him and how he stands up the right. >> well, we'll be watching these investigations closely. charlie savage, barbara mcquade, thank you both. and up next, incumbent democratic senator raphael warnock and his republican challenger, herschel walker, gear up for their final push ahead of georgia runoff race just days away. over on the latest, after the break. th break. >> families are struggling because of biden's inflation, and washington post change unless we make them. georgia's doing better than the rest of the country, because we stood up for hardworking families. herschel walker will help georgia, not be another rubberstamp for joe bid

so no matter what bob mueller found, he was always hitting up against the wall that the department ofion has been that a sitting president cannot be charged. he's no longer president and he has since committed the crimes of his involvement in january 6th, enticing or inciting or aiming the mob at the capitol and the mishandling of nuclear secrets and classified information. we have to put all of that aside. and we want him to get this right. we absolutely need to get this right. because he'll have to prove it before a jury, perhaps a jury in florida and he's also going to have to survive appeals all the way up to a supreme court, where it's clear that the cards might be, you know, stacked against him. so there's no -- we should have no interest in seeing him rush this, just for the sake of sfig our own desire to see donald trump held accountable. we should see this as an effort that will survive the test of our justice system, an independent system, so i welcome this and i want to move expeditiously, but we cannot rush this to see a fumble on the one-yard line. >> i think you understa

>> the big difference is that bob mueller assumed from the beginning he was bound to follow doj's internalthat the former president had been involved in the commission of crimes, which should be referred to congress for impeachment. unfortunately, congress did not fully accept mueller's invitation, which brings us to where we are today. it is not just the legal framing that is different, jonathan. i feel like that early stage in the mueller investigation, we were such a naive group of former doj employees, we believed the process and rule of law would always be honored by the white house. we learned that is not the case, so this special counsel will take over in an environment, where he will appreciate that there will inevitably be confrontation, not cooperation from the former president, who believes he should not be held accountable under the rule of law. this special counsel will have to double down on his efforts and make sure the law applies to everyone, no matter who they are, including former and perhaps, the future president. >> miles, great to see you in person here, on set. trump

bob mcdonnell. but really he has not been operating in washington the way that mueller had been as the fbi director.e will at the end of this have to produce a final report and make very extensive, significant decisions in the same way mueller and his team would have had to around what to do with a president, in the case the foermer president. >> shan wu, how much confidence do you have in jack smith? >> oh, lots of confidence in the man, very good reputation. he is walking into a historically unprecedented firestorm. he might want to consider keeping his office in the netherlands, frankly. he's very competent, very experienced. there's no question about that. the only concern is there is going to be some time taken to get up to speed and ultimately you will hear a lot of pundits saying this means trump is definitely going to be indicted. that's not true. the evidence looks very strong but he is going to make his own independent judgment just as garland would have. >> let me follow up with kaitlyn. is there any sense of how the timeline will unfold and then how the justice department will approach t