this is cassidy hutchinson on that. >> what was mark's reaction, mr.dows' reaction, to this list of weapon that people had? >> when tony and i went in to talk to mark that morning, mark was sitting on his couch and on his phone which is something typical. it was like what you know, informed him like this is how many people outside with mags right now. this is how many weapons possible. he listed more weapons out there, i just don't recall. and gave him a brief but concise explanation, but also fairly thorough. and i remember distinctly mark not looking up from his phone. i remember tony finishing his explanation. and it takes a few seconds for mark to say something. i was, sir, mark, did you hear him? and mark then chimed in, like, all right, anything else still looking down at his phone. and tony looked at me and i looked to tony, and tony said, no, sir, do you have any questions? he's like, what are you hearing? i looked at tony, and i said he just told what you was happening. he said, yeah, i know. then he looked and said have you talked to the pres

we are talking about cassidy hutchinson.r is some of what she told the committee last year about incidents involving the head of trump's detail, bobby ingle and tony ornato. >> i recall tony and i having a conversation with mark probably around 10:00 a.m., 10:15 a.m. where i remember tony mentioning knives, guns, in the form of pistol and rifles, bear spray, body armor, spears and body poles. spears were one item, flag poles were one items and tony had relayed to me something to the effect of and these effing people are fastening spears onto the end of flag poles. i was in the vicinity of a conversation where i overheard the president say something to the effect of i don't effing care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the effing mags away. let me people in. let the people in, take the effing mags away. >> the president said something to the effect of i'm the effing president. take me up to the capitol now. to which bobby responded, sir, we have to go back to the west wing. the president reached up tow

, i think, it's fair to say of the january 6th hearings from the house select committee was cassidy hutchinsonsaw and heard a lot of things, although certainly not as much as her boss, the white house chief of staff mark meadows who no doubt knows much, much more. >> i am sure that prosecutors went through cassidy hutchinson's testimony in front of the january 6th committee we all remember about a year ago and any other testimony she's given to a grand jury with a highlighter and used that as one of the bases on which to question mark meadows like you said, jake. cassidy was a top adviser and counselor to mark meadows and she gave us testimony about various things she observed firsthand and various conversations she had with mark meadows and there were other critical conversations that cassidy hutchinson testified about that happened right before january 6th where she said meadows went and met with the president. now, i wasn't in there for that conversation, but meadows told me that's what was said or meadows didn't tell me much about it. go through each of those as a prosecutor and say we've

cassidy hutchinson was hugely significant because she was so close to the inner circle.ess to events and were strong enough, courageous enough to tell the truth about those events moved the needle. this was not with all due respect to ms. lofgren or me or anybody pulling a rabbit out of the hat. we had really good facts. and facts were really compelling and they came from people like cassidy hutchinson who were strong enough to come forward. we put her on really kind of abruptly after hearing about some of the more significant things that she said. and after she testified, we did a lot of work to corroborate that. and largely did corroborate that. her most significant testimony was about the president's very strong desire to go to the capitol and his anger at being told that he could not. while we couldn't corroborate that resulted in physical struggle, we corroborated from everyone in the vehicle and otherwise that the president had that strong desire. as i said before, that is a really, really important fact that but for cassidy hutchinson and other witnesses, we would

does he want to be cassidy hutchinson? weisselberg, and he's loyal to trump, he'll go to jail. if he's led to cassidy hutchinson, and hired his own leader, he could be a hero. >> you obviously referring to weisselberg who worked for the trump organization, and it did -- cassidy hutchinson, who testify to the january 6th hearings that we saw. part of, that walt, what happens with him in this conversation going forward? the big -- the judge said today that basically the government has to come up with the witness list of witnesses that trump can't speak to about this case, except through attorneys. does the trump team have any say in that? what does that look like was the special counsel's office comes out with that list? >> i don't think the trump team has a choice. they have to follow the courts rulings, and witnesses shouldn't be collaborating together, talking to each other, defendants should be talking to witnesses. talking to other defendants. generally, when there are two defendants charged, the lawyer speak to each ot

cassidy hutchinson had damning testimony about him.of the people who thought he needs a pardon. he with will put this up. the classified documents, january 6, georgia election. he set up the call in which donald trump said, get me 11,000 x number of votes. is he somebody who in theory is a witness or maybe was a potential target? where does he stand here? could he still be someone who might also get indicted, because he is seemingly involved in all the things? >> right. that's a question that's between meadows, his lawyers and the justice department. often as a prosecutor, you sit down with an individual who is involved in crime and you give them that choice. do you want to be a defendant or do you want to be a witness? that's the position that meadows is in. joy, what i remember hitting me so hard during the january 6 committee hearing was the testimony from cassidy hutchinson about mark meadows' burning documents in his fireplace, in his white house office. that's a remarkable, remarkable piece of incriminating information about mark

he's got to decide whether he's going to follow the allen weisselberg model or the cassidy hutchinson model. if he follows the loyalty model he goes to jail. he follows the cassidy hutchinson model, he gets his own lawyer and becomes a hero. >> the question is whether you can get him to flip. he is so loyal that the picture lisa ruben painted of him marching out behind donald trump, returning to his role as valley, immediately supporting subordinating himself to trump -- he will flip. >> first of all, his already been approached to flip. from the government standpoint he was either going to be a defendant or he was going to be a witness and if he was a witness, this case would have stayed in the district of columbia, they don't have anything on him that give some venue over nauta and nauta is a key piece in this hope persecution because nauta, in a sense, is the albatross around trump's neck. >> how worried are you about the judge? >> the judge in any case has lots of power. she has power over low visibility things we might not see, like in jury selection. how deep is she going to go

cassidy hutchinson is the hero of the story it's cassidy hutchinson that put the fear of god into the doj, into merrick garland, into lisa monaco and made them act there's another kind of more hidden bad guy here who is getting away a little light. that's, if you look at that clip, what did i say where's the fbi? jason, i cannot explain how fbi director chris wray still has a job. chris wray botched the brett kavanaugh investigation, botched the larry nassar investigation, let all of these people on january 6th just walk out, scot free there were immeasurable resources that had to be spent recapturing the people that chris wray let walk free on january 6th, and now we see in this report that once again, in that interim from january 7th until merrick garland takes over in march 2021, who is basically in charge? it's chris wray, and he does nothing. i don't know what he has to do to lose the job. like, does he have to slap chris rock like, what does it actually take for chris wray to lose a job behind his stuff because he is not -- he has not been a good fbi director based on any object

but you'll recall from the january 6th hearings, cassidy hutchinson recording in a lot of different ways that mark meadows was really privy to what was going on with donald trump. >> and also cassidy hutchinson's testimony was so stunning to your committee, and she was just kind of an ear witness and an eyewitness to a couple of things. she was adjacent to mark meadows. mark meadows would have seen everything or heard, certainly, exponentially more than she did. >> and he intimated to her at numerous points that donald trump wanted to keep the insurrection going. he didn't want to interfere. and of course we know through his inaction that he did not operate like the commander in chief. he did not get in touch with the armed forces. he did not get in touch with the local police. he did not activate the national guard. but what we need is more intd cations of what he was affirmatively saying during that time. and undoubtedly, mark meadows was in a position to know. >> do you think, if he was offered a deal and he took it, do you think that would have been a good move by this special counse

the january 6th committee discovered text messages sent during and following the meeting by cassidy hutchinsonstant to mark meadows who testified live before the committee hearing in june, describing the meeting as unhinged. she also snapped this photograph of mark meadows escorting rudy giuliani from the white house to make sure he did not get back into the mansion. you tweeted, quote, somehow the committee testimony featured live underplayed how crazy that december 18th meeting was. how was it underplayed? >> because donald trump faded into the background as this was all being described. one of the ways in which donald trump has escaped a lot of accountability over time is he gets people fighting with each other, and that's what people focus on. he considered extreme, really unprecedented actions. now, he didn't take them, but he was unwilling to foreclose options until the last possible second no matter how extreme and -- and potentially dangerous they were. >> i remember talking to you after that meeting, and you were shaking. >> i was. and it was, frankly -- it took a little bit to proces

cassidy hutchinson who became one of the committee's star witnesses.k meadows who said this. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. the insurrectionists when they chanted "hang mike pence." do you think squarely against him, regarding the violence? >> well, assuming that he has testified fully and truthfully, if cassidy hutchinson is to be believed, and we have no reason the disbelieve. >> her in any way. she had no motive or incentive to lie and she seemed to be an entirely credible witness. then i imagine donald trump should be very afraid of what mark meadows is testifying about, because he would have been right there in the center of a lot of conversations, and he would have been right there hearing exactly what donald trump's designs were for january 6th. but i'm convinced from all of the evidence we got, both direct testimony and circumstantial evidence, that donald trump went to sleep on the night of january 5th, thinking he would figure out a way to maintain this hold on the presidency for another four years the next day. >> and that it

this comes neerm nearly a year after the testimony from cassidy hutchinson it's not yet known what information the agents may have provided to the grand jury a spokeswoman for the secret service declined to comment. ofrnt >>> after smmonths of spaex, the supreme court is expected to release decisions this morning what are the latest few cases the court is considering >> reporter: as is tradition in the last week of june, the nation's highest court is expected to issue a number of highly-anticipated rulings as its term comes to an end while the court is considering ten outstanding cases, three have caught the eyes of the american people. one of these cases concerns the fate of affirmative action on college campuses nbc news reported on monday that officials at higher education institutions are waiting with bated breath for this decision while some have said they've been preparing for the end of affirmative action for years, one administrator said a ruling that ends the policy would be devastating for college admissions americans are also waiting to hear how the court rules on another education-

this news comes nearly a year after the testimony from former white house aide cassidy hutchinson, in which she alleged trump lashed out at secret service eigh service agents after they refused to drive limb him to the capitol. the spokeswoman for the secret service declined to comment >>> the man accused of killing and injuring people at the club q got the maximum punishment of multiple life sentences and will not be able to appeal. >>> the cdc has issued a new alert about malaria. over the past two months, one case has been documented in texas and four in florida. people had not traveled outside the country. malaria is a serious, sometimes deadadly diseasese usually sprey mosquitos. symptoms can include fever, chills and muscle aches. officials are encouraging the public to protect against insect bites. >>> there is a new drug from eli lilly that could do more for weight loss than any medication currently on the market. a report in the new england journal of medicine says it helped people lose fleerl a qua nearly a quarter of their body weight on average in a mid stage clinical tria

trump wanted to do, cassidy hutchinson testified that mr.ol and pressure mike pence himself not to count the electoral ballots. at least she recounts a real struggle with the secret service driver there. who think had a rationale it wasn't safe for this president to do this off-schedule detour but i think it's an instance of some people make something judgments. and i understand that. and i understand why some of the -- some of those people made those judgments. and it's hard to criticize that. and i try to separate that from briefings of the intelligence community. and i also think that one of the important things here is the people around mr. trump. i think they were trying, to the extent that they could, to ensure that the classified information was protected, right? they were trying to keep him -- to leave it in the sit room, right, and collect it later even if he had taken it to his personal quarters. as we now know, many, many documents exceeded the efforts of our intelligence community to keep them safe. >> mary, one of the first peop

cassidy hutchinson, you know, being part of that. reminder that so many of the leads pursued that resulted in these dramatic public testimony that sort of captured everyone's imagination were first were fir to, so even if a case where they didn't have a full picture, mike, it was some of the things don junior was texting about the plans in the earliest days after trump's defeat for contesting the election and other threats that were pulled by that committee, doggedly over many, many months. i want to read for our viewers -- again, this broke while we were on the air. i and i want to share your report about meadows' potential importance in the documents probe, something we have been talking about a great deal over the last two hours. you and your colleagues write -- meadows was one of trump's representatives to the archives, and he had some role in trying to discuss the matter with trump, according to two people briefed on the matter. and then you guys get into what has been reported about meadows' autobiographers. i want to read that

remember how shocked everyone was when cassidy hutchinson testified? you have to assume this won't change anything, but it is one indictment after another, one drip after another, one tape after another. the testimony, is it going to break people away? will there come a moment where republicans go, do we really, really want to do this? are we going to put him in the general election ballot? we don't know at this point. to use a phrase we use way too often, this is unchartered territory. a former president who behaves this way, looking to get power back again and, yet, is facing multiple indictments, on issues that are not trivial. this mar-a-lago document case, i think a lot of people thought, well, what is it going to be? is it going to be trivial documents, things not consequential? now, we're finding out that we're talking about actual war plans. you know, it's one thing to say that donald trump becomes stronger with every indictment, but we don't know what's coming down the pike. >> charlie sykes, thank you very much. chuck rosenberg, thank you, as

. >> but according to white house aides cassidy hutchinson, it was only the threat of his cabinet invokingd trump that talk of removing him from office was gaining traction. >> think about what might happen in the final 15 days of your presidency if we don't do this. there's already talks of invoking the 25th amendment, you need this as cover. >> and even then he still refused to admit the election was over. >> this election is now over. congress has certified the results. i don't want to say the election is over. i just want to say congress has certified the results without saying the election is over, okay? >> that video just showed you that even after every single constitutional process had been completed, and after over 60 courts had heard his challenges and rejected them, he still refused. it was fundamentally a rejection of the rule of law. and again, america can't sustain itself if we have a commander in chief who is at war with the rule of law. >> coming up -- >> i want the american people to look at these hearings and understand how close we came that day to losing that self-gover

in addition to the clip you just played, from cassidy hutchinson, talking about some of the things that mark meadows had access to, remember, there was also her testimony where she talked about how he was even communicating with the willard hotel war room guys on january 5th about what was gonna happen the next day. i think mark meadows is a really important key to the january 6th case. frankly, was kind of a last piece that seemed necessary for jack smith to hear. we've been talking a lot about the eminence of the mar-a-lago indictment. i'm now thinking the january 6th indictment is just as a minute. >> holy cow, michael, mark meadows attorney did not confirm or deny the testimony. but he did say that his client, quote, has maintained a commitment to tell the truth where he has a legal obligation to do so. to me, there's a lot of meaning in every single word there. what stands out to you in that statement? >> so, a statement like that, in a normal criminal investigation, that doesn't involve donald trump is not that helpful. because it doesn't really say much. but in an investigation t

. >> cassidy hutchinson quoted saying we have the theories we just don't have the facts. that was great, thank you both so much. coming, up each new day brings worst legal news for don trump. the latest on the classified documents authorities suspect could still be stashed at his second golf house. next. that. the queen sleep number 360 c2 smart bed is now only $899. plus, free home delivery when you add an adjustable base. shop now only at sleep number. last august fbi agents are in mar-a-lago. based on stacked in the bathroom. and it's shower stall. and on a stage. in many other places. since, then it has seen the documents case centered and focused. ex president indicted on 37 felony counts just two weeks ago. that indictment also describes two incidents of trump showing classified documents to people at his golf club in bedminster new jersey. july 2020, one he should've signed on attack that trump claimed was secret. in which we now know was about iran. >> it's highly confidential, secret. well it is. >> according to the indictment, trump truly representative is packe

you may recall if watched any of the hearings, the testimony by cassidy hutchinson, this young former white house aide who described the president's behavior on the morning of january six before his big speech at the ellipse in washington. she said that trump was annoyed that the magnetometers the weapons detectors were inhibiting some of his supporters who who were armed from entering the area where he was giving the speech. as always, we know trump wanted a big crowd. he the space to be full. and hutchinson says in her testimony, she said that she heard the president say something like this pardon, the language, i don't care that they have weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the f-ing mags away. the maximum examiners. let my people in. i want you to think about one of those sentences. they're not here. hurt me. i. i kept wondering which word did the president emphasize when he said out loud. if it's the verb hurt, then the sentiment is somewhat benign. i'm not here to hurt me. i could be saying they're here to me to support me, to cheer for me. if the stress falls on the word

6th committee hearings were going on, we saw a case of witness intimidation happening with cassidy hutchinsonhe key witnesses in that case. it makes me worried about whether it's trump or someone in trump world intimidating these witnesses now that they have the names. >> and there is proven history showing that that has happened in the past. paul, i want to read an excerpt from "the new york times" op-ed written by a retired and staunchly conservative judge. he called the republican base spineless for its continued support of trump. he said if he's convicted on espionage charges, fails to shake the republican party from its political senses, that it is beyond saving itself nor ought to be saved. were you surprised by this take? >> the judge has stepped out. he testified so powerfully before the january 6th committee. for people who don't know, he's one of the most respected, esteemed and conservative legal minds of the last half century. widely respected. for him to say that -- he's no liberal. for him to say that is quite shocking. i'll let him speak to the legalities. i'm sure he's right.

people like cassidy hutchinson didn't just answer your questions, she seemed eager to tell the storyople that brett behrs question pointed out trump fired they didn't criticize him. they criticized the merits of his continued statements of voter fraud. bill barr, for example, issued this incredibly effusive resignation letter about all the great things that the trump administration had achieved, yet he said, mr. president, the claims of voter fraud that you are saying in public are b.s. mike pence never criticized the president, was similarly a big supporter of the policies, but he said no when it came to whether or not he had the authority. i'd bring brad raffensperger into this. brad raffensperger testified in front of trump committee he was a big trump supporter, he wanted very much for trump to win, but he didn't. and he told the president on that phone call that is the subject of fani willis' investigation, sir, we have looked into those claims and it's not there. it's then, a pawn being told no, being truthfully misguide in his illegal attempt to circumvent the truth for power

the actions surrounding the violent insurrection that took place at the capitol and recall cassidy hutchinsonuoted mark meadows to the effect president trump was not trying to stop the ongoing insurrection that had laid siege to the capitol. you'll recall some awkward questioning of the white house counsel pat cipollone where liz cheney said to him was everyone in the white house interested essentially in stopping the insurrection, and he said, yes, i can't think of anybody he wasn't. and he was asked the question i think by adam schiff of the president and she said, she was referring to the staff, and she said, no, i was referring to anyone in the white house. and he turned to his lawyer to determine how he should answer and he said, well, that's covered by attorney-client privilege and i was talking about the staff. so there clearly are people who understand what donald trump's determination and intent were during that 3-hour period when the commander in chief just went awol. nobody heard from him at the army, nobody heard from him in the navy, marines, the joint chief of staff, d.c. police

but the big question is, cassidy hutchinson famously testified before your committee, the january 6the heard secondhand that trump wanted secret service agents to drive him to the capitol. she also recounted an episode she heard about secondhand that the president in the beast tried to grab the car's steering wheel and reached for the classicals of the driver, right. trump denied all that. but this is what you would assume they're looking to corroborate? >> yeah. because if he -- if he's sitting there -- the law expert would know better, sitting there saying we want to go down to the capitol. that shows intent. it shows desire. it wasn't a one-off, said it on stage and i'm really going back to the white house. he was angry. he wanted to go. i think this is a pretty big deal. as a guy that spent a lot of time working on the january 6th stuff, i personally think this is as important as the classify document case is, accountability for this is even more important even if it's not the president but second tier folks. we can't have failed insurrections in this country. we can't do it. >> g

the key event for this day, will want to know how cassidy hutchinson's testimony will hold up.we'll want to know more about what was happening with the secret service detail around former vice president mike pence. a lot of that is missing because of the secret service text messages that never got saved and handed over as the department of homeland security inspector general announced a year ago. there's so many details we want to get from the secret service. there's this big black hole about exactly what they knew. we know how close they were to the president that day. we know the grand jury has been able to get some of those answers. that will play into a decision that may come at some point to indict the former president on that. of course, jack smith just recently indicted former president trump on his handling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. >> julia ainsley, thank you. my friend. >>> through donald trump's many legal woes and after his 37-count federal indictment, not only are republicans sticking with him, our new poll shows his support is growing while his top ri

in fact, if you'll recall which cassidy hutchinson testify before the january 6th committee she and rudy had walked out before that where rudy said to her, it's going to be wild, are you excited what's going to happen on january 6th? he was smack-dab in the middle of everything. if he comes totally clean here donald trump is in big trouble, john eastman is in big trouble, right down the line possibly general flynn, roger stone, steve bannon. i mean particularly i don't think they'd have anybody who's been in place in that willard hotel room. and what was going on there and was the connection between people in that war room and the proud boys and the oath keepers. that's what we want to find out, and that's what jack smith is going in for. absolutely this is it. this is the big kill. this is where he's going to learn how all of this was put together. >> yeah, striking. i mean it's such a development. nick acerman, thank you for walking us through the significance of that. on these big nights we appreciate you making time for us. corporate ceos have now been busted with how they're abusing

"washington post" reporting that you and i have talked about because it was a year ago when cassidy hutchinson testified in the select committee public hearings for them to focus on the planners and the plotters of the coup, including trump and eastman and others. but i think it's not that he doesn't see what we see. it's that he believes that you answer and solve for them by doubling down in your protection of the independence of the justice department. >> yeah. yeah, and he made a little bit of news there in saying to you, today, so, we have this as your msnbc exclusive, that he hasn't discussed a single case with the attorney general. we know, and you have reminded folks, why that's generally disfavored, but there can be exceptions. international, national security cases, for example, are something that can reach a level where there is an appropriate non-meddling discuss, although it's rare. the president telling you this far in, they haven't, him and garland, gone into one case alone, let alone the trefrp case. while i have you, i want to play his response to the big supreme court ruling t

yep, committee's big witness was former trump aide cassidy hutchinson and she drops some major bombshellse is talking about how trump reacted when his driver told him that he couldn't go to the capitol. >> the president said something to the effect of, "i'm the effing president, take me up to the capitol now. the president reached up towards the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering wheel. mr. trump then used his free hand to lunge towards bobby engel, and when mr. ornato had recounted this story to me he had motioned for his clavicles. >> jimmy: immediately the agents were like, "who the hell let him out of his car seat? [ laughter ] i mean, how did he reach the steering wheel?" always good when you need another secret service to protect the secret service you know what i'm saying [ laughter ] a little later, hutchinson recalled how trump reacted after attorney general bill barr said that there was no evidence of election fraud. watch this >> i left the office and went down to the dining room. i first noticed there was ketchup dripping down the wall and there's a shattered porcela

we know that from cassidy hutchinson's testimony that on december 18th in her own words, the oval office, it was unhinged in which there was a meeting between giuliani, with trump, with powell, with eastman, and white house counsel over disagreements about the efforts to file litigation in several key states, and of course, rudy giuliani is also believed to be a key individual involved in the effort to build those fake slate of electors. we also know there are questions the special counsel's office is looking around to the fundraising operation. that was the save america pact. that was the pact that was set up, and reached out to americans asking for donations to help fight the fraud to overturn the 2020 election. rudy giuliani was paid out of that account. there are a lot of questions which rudy giuliani could answer in terms of his own conversations with donald trump, but also others who may be targets of the investigation in the special counsel's office as well. >> got to wonder what donald trump thinks upon this knowledge. thank you so much. vaughn hillyard, appreciate it. >>> let's

just reminded what cassidy hutchinson said. she was trying on january 6th to get mark meadows to do something, to get mark meadows to act. he seemed like sort of catatonic. and saying, well, donald trump doesn't want to do anything. he seems to been the ultimate on the rudy giuliani scale. the fact he's cooperating could mean maybe he doesn't want to go to jail. >> this guy was a weather vein. he was telling people, he was telling people what they wanted to hear. he was telling some people, he was telling, he'll calm down. he'll settle down and accept the results of the election. other people, he was saying we'll fight this to the very end. he's not a strong-willed character, which means i just don't think he's the type who is going to want to, as you point out, go to jail for donald trump. >> let me ask you a political question. you now have a number of candidates jumping in, one, ron desantis, has essentially said i would pardon him. >> you didn't think that was churchillian? >> so robotic and weird. >> fight the woke on the

we know his closest aide in the white house, cassidy hutchinson, who gave the very powerful testimony to the january 6th committee that completely helped them make their final arguments here of what they were saying trump did or did not do in the lead-up to january 6th and on that day, so mark meadows has been the central player all throughout. at times actually helping investigators, at times pulling back from that and not helping investigators, i thought the statement that paula read from the meadows team about when he's obligated to do so by law, he will have this commitment to the truth. well, that suggests to me that perhaps he may have some very valuable information that he provided in this testimony. wolf, we simply don't know if we will find out. i guess fairly soon. dana bash, does all this new breaking news we're reporting hit home for people in the former president's orbit? >> absolutely, i mean, there was nobody closer inside the orbit than mark meadows at the time, of course, from all the time lines that we're talking about, particularly january 6th and up till when the p

course we would be interested or jack smith would be interested in having them talk about what cassidy hutchinsoneady mentioned a year ago this week, which is that the president, former president trump, tried to tried to steer his car back toward the capitol and actually ended up putting his hands on the wheel and then on the clavicle. she was told that by tony ornato who went back to the secret service after he serve in the white house, whether it's unclear whether or notengel or ornato have been asked to testify. they would want to know exactly what the secret service knew leading up to that day. remember those text messages we never got because they disappeared during a routine system upgrade. what did they know about the threat level, and further more, what was it like being near vice president pence that day and what did trump do or not do to try to save his own vice president as an angry mob stormed the capitol and demanded he be lynched. we know they've been meeting regularly, even twice last week or more. this is all as jack smith really has a steady drum beat in addition to what he's alr

lot of us watch the january 6th committee hearings, and we were full attention, particularly cassidy hutchinson'sthat was riting testimony. but often she was saying, well, this person contacted mark, or i was in the room when mark was talking to so and so. she was an assistant to mark. mark, mark meadows. that's the guy that we're hearing from here. i think he is at the center of everything. not only he was the white house chief of staff, traditionally a great keeper for the president, fwrufrp was not using text messages and emails. all that was going through meadows. really any thought there was on sixth was going through meadows at that time he was going to be the one who was, you know, hearing from people who were potentially in contact with those who were starting the capital. he's also the person dealing with the white house lawyers, right? don mcgahn was ultimately there in his office. excuse me, not don mcgahn. pat cipollone was in his office. >> replacement at white house counsel. >> he's also the person who would be shepherding them out and documenting at mar-a-lago. aside from the tape

he, according to cassidy hutchinson's testimony, he accumulated charts of all of the electors. he had multiple, dozens of meetings and phone calls about it. so he's running point for president trump in that instance. and then he's also central to the efforts to use the justice department to try to overturn the election in georgia and elsewhere. >> now, karen, do you think that -- and, again, we're going under certain assumptions of things we don't yet know, if he had full immunity and he really did answer the question, which we don't yet know the answer to -- do you think this is news to trump tonight? >> i think so. as we all know, grand jury proceedings are secret by its very nature. so we are doing the best we can by reading the tea leaves to try to figure it out. but it's been very clear that trump did not know what was happening, that he's gone very quiet to the trump team. and, so, i think this really shows that he has testified -- i would go a little bit further than even what ryan is saying. his lawyer made a statement today about meadows' testimony that, without commen

around during key moments on january 6th, protecting trump as trump, according to testimony from cassidy hutchinson, was in a rage wanting to see people who were said to be armed, armed with sticks and not necessarily guns, but to be allowed to come into his rally at the ellipse. he wanted it to be bigger. they were right there and had a -- view so they were important understand the details of that day and potentially trump's mindset. >> of course, part of that story is also trump wanting to go to the capitol and to what extent he planned to do that and wanted secret service agents to protect him in that journey. maggie haberman, it's always great to have you. thank you very much for joining us. and now to our other major story tonight, vladimir putin and the leader of the rebellion, both breaking their silence and giving dueling spins on what is next inside of russia. but their whereabouts are both a mystery tonight. plus, new cnn reporting that the u.s. had intel on this insurrection, but kept it secret. cnn's erin burnett joins me from ukraine and cnn's matthew chance is inside of russia right n

. >> cassidy hutchinson quoted saying we have the theories we just don't have the facts. that was great, thank you both so much. coming, up each new day brings worst legal news for don trump. the latest on the classified documents authorities suspect could still be stashed at his second golf house. next. olf house. next ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ get it with gurus. cargurus. i have moderate to severe crohn's disease. now, there's skyrizi. get it with gurus. ♪ things are looking up ♪ ♪ i've got symptom relief ♪ ♪ control of my crohn's means everything to me. ♪ ♪ ♪ control is everything to me. ♪ feel significant symptom relief with skyrizi, including less abdominal pain and fewer bowel movements at 4 weeks. skyrizi is the first and only il-23 inhibitor for crohn's that can deliver both clinical remission and endoscopic improvement. the majority of people on skyrizi achieved long lasting remission at 1 year. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to.

. >> josh, just to remind people of how central he was, cassidy hutchinson, one of his aides, testified to what he was doing as the mob was gathering on january 6th and at the capitol in fact. here's what she said about meadows. >> i remember pat saying to him, something to the effect of, for the rioters have gotten to the capital, mark. we need to go down and see the president now. mark looked up and said, he doesn't want to do anything, pet. they're literally calling for the vice president to be effing hung. marquette responded something to the effect of, you heard him, pat, he thinks mike deserves it, he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. >> your thoughts on what's happening now? >> yeah, he's up there with mike pence in terms of being the very central people that you bring in toward the end of this investigation. i think this is one of several signs, there's also the news reporting about donald trump having been told by his attorneys he should expect to be indicted, at least in the documents case. these are signs of a very mature investigation. and i certainly agree, he was

they were in the white house on december 18th, cassidy hutchinson, the aide to mark meadows, sent a textsage saying the oval office is unhinged and even took a picture of mark meadows escorting rudion giuliani out because there was talk about seizing election machines. rudy giuliani was that central figure and he was the personal lawyer to donald trump at that time. he knows an awful lot. he's been defiant they were in the right, but that's why jack smith is likely going back to him a second time. >> is rudy a target or a witness? >> that's a good question. i'm not aware whether he's a target in this investigation or not. we know he also went before the fulton county district attorney and is potentially a target down there as well. >> okay, and fani willis' investigation. michael, what do you expect the special counsel's office will ask brad raffensperger? >> well, i'm glad to be with you today. i think this is just sort of belt and suspenders for the special counsel. there is no shortage of public statements made by the former secretary of state or the secretary of state here about form

but that's why cassidy hutchinson was a star witness. indeed there are reports that jack smith's probe intensified after hearing so much from this mark meadows aide. >> is it your understanding that president trump asked mark meadows to speak with roger stone and general flynn on january 5th in. >> mr. meadows did complete both a call to mr. stone and general flynn the evening of the 5th. mr. meadow his a conversation with me where he wanted me to work with secret service on a movement from the white house to the hotel so he could attend the meeting or meets with mr. giuliani and his associates in the board room. he didn't look up from his phone and said something to the effect of, things might get real, real bad on january 6th. >> things might get real bad. they did. when the violence broke out and a lawyer, pat cipollone, rushed into mark meadows' office trying to get the president to stop the ongoing attacks, the horror of what you see on the screen, which was scarier at the time because they didn't know how many murders it would end

the name cassidy hutchinson springs to mind. there are a number of other figures that could potentially testify here. yes, molly michael did have a firsthand view. we've known for over a year that she was intimately involved with the logistics around these boxes, that she was cooperating with the department of justice and she ended up leaving trump's employ. there are still, though, a handful of individuals who have cooperated with the investigation and one of whom is actually a target and co-defendant, walt nauta, who are still in trump's employ. trump and the rest of the staff have been rallying around nauta in hopes he doesn't turn on the former president. he too has a lot of information detailed in that 49-page indictment. there's a reason why judge goodman asked that trump not speak with the witnesses in the case going forward, which is something that any good defense attorney would recommend that their client do. there was a special condition granted tuesday since these are the people that his lawyer, todd blanche, keep th

. >> cassidy hutchinson saying that's exactly what she was told to do. >> and there's all these other people that can corroborate he actually knew because they're having these exchanges what trump wants and where the documents should be. and suddenly for him to say, darn, i just wish i knew, it just lacks all credibility in light of that other evidence. you have to put those two things together and that's where you nail them. i think this will be the interesting thing because i think andrew's right. why he hasn't flipped already because any sane person would, but we have seen this in trump orbit. rikers island, that's some real loyalty. >> loyalty and also, you know, who's paying for their counsel. let me give you a little tip. when someone answers something by saying, well, honestly, my antennae go up. it's presumed. to me it's always a tell there might be a problem. >> that's fair. honestly i have 20 seconds left. what's jack smith going to do tonight? >> i think that the big sort of upcoming issue is -- >> i mean tonight tonight. is he going to have a beer, champagne? >> work. he's

i think maybe cassidy hutchinson made it look easier than it is to remember the details of one's timeic servant. but one of the more striking examples of that is when you were questioning him about whether or not it is illegal to take campaign assistance from a foreign hostile power to the candidates's son. what did you make of his exchange? and his responses are in direct contradiction to the mueller report. >> he was really trying to down-play the significance of the president's son, being offered dirt on hillary clinton something represented of don junior as part of the russian government's effort to try and help the trump campaign, taking that information to a secret meeting he wanted to down-play it. he wanted to suggest this happens all the time. and in that answer and so many others what it really betrayed is what exactly he accused the fbi of, and that is confirmation bias. you could really see his bias into thinking what the trump campaign did was fine or he wasn't going to call it collusion even though there is no other name for what the trump campaign tried to do. but he cl

"the washington post" recently reported that it took the justice department seeing cassidy hutchinson'slic testimony, which was a year ago yesterday, to really focus on trump is and his innermost circles role in the january 6th coup plot. you've awarded medals to officer fanone and the others. do they deserve to know why it took the justice department a year to open an investigation into the person that incited the insurrection? >> look, i've made a commitment that i would not in any way interfere with the justice department, who they prosecuted if they prosecuted, how they proceeded. i've not spoken once, not one single time with the attorney general on any specific case, not once, and -- but i do talk to him about law enforcement and all those other things. but the point is that i just think -- about interfering in institutions, the last administration tried to direct the court, tried to push the court. i mean, whether it was the fed or the court or institutions, supposed to say hands off. that's why i have never engaged in that. >> when you talk about strengthening democracies at hom

ground that the 1/6 select committee pushed into and told us what we know, especially with cassidy hutchinson's public testimony that she was the one warning him not to go down there >> just to take us back to the fall, november of 2021, basically 11 months after the insurrection and the ausa, tom windom has newly arrived in the u.s. attorney's office. he's come over from maryland he's been prewitting domestic extremists successfully. so he's looking at essentially open source material in books and newspapers i can credit bob woodward and bob costa, they wrote books referencing the willard war room and then my colleagues at the "washington post" who within several weeks in october reported in great detail on how rudy giuliani was running basically an op shop there, pushing fake electors, promoting the rally. so what wind only was doing was saying, here's open source information. and also, it twr tracked with a other things shouldn't we be looking at what they were doing at the willard there were a team of lawyers staying there. they had been there since mid december they mostly reported to trum