lois lerner took the fifth for a reason. government employees don't go rogue en masse. their orders originate somewhere. yet even with all these known violations of the law, no one has been blamed, shamed, fired, arrested or brought to justice. because of that i have to ask how many people in congress are taking this seriously. since my last testimony in congress, i still have not been contacted by the fbi. the fbi told the "wall street journal" that no one would be charged with a crime, yet they haven't even interviewed the witnesses. are you going to let them get away with this? if so, then i must say it again, my government has forgotten its place. it appears that many in washington fear regular citizens standing up for constitutional limited government. why in america is it now considered a threat to our government to study the founding documents and to advocate for responsible spending. why is giving out copies of the constitution, discussing pending legislation or even creating legislative score cards a threat to this administration? obviously these activities are

this is from ruth to lois lerner.aying that we don't know who in your organization is keeping tabs on the organizations and the groups called 501 c-4, i have my radar into the scene. interesting. what in the world does that mean? >> number one it means not publicly discussed or publicly known. they were doing this literally off the books, so to speak trade your remember the lois lerner was sending e-mails to other agencies and also sending e-mails with data into her persal e-mail account. the radar was up because it was really coming from the president and heade that speech in front of the supreme court. the state of the union and chastising them. for the chatterley groups. so basicay what you have is the head of the irs with both the division and their lawyer and the chief counsel that were following orders. the white house sending a clear message, lois lerner getting messages and she's certainlnot innocent by any stretch of the imagination. this was orchestrated at the highest level and the idea that they've lamenes

>> we have bits and pieces in the lois lerner e-mails.as the head of tax exempt and she apologized for it and it is her e-mails. lois lerner was involved in more than targeting of the groups she apologized for and took the fifth. they never got testimony from lois lerner and never got questions and put her on the record. we know that there were groups audited by the irs that had status and different than the groups that are applying. and she would have represented that event. and the new rules coming in to lights and a lot of attention on this week and there are over 67,000 comments filed to the irs in opposition to the new rules that regulate c4s and go back and put in to law what the irs apologized doing for the tea party. one e-mail links her to writing the rules and they were all loes learner's doing. and chairman camp is giving the commissioner one more opportunity to handle it nicely and ask for the information or else. we are talking about a now days here. >> what he is threatening is a subpeona. how does that change the ekwaegz? >

go after lois lerner? >> we have to find out who in the white house was engaged and why the department of justice appointed someone to look at this that was tied to obama white house. and why the president said there is not a smidgeon of a mess. i don't know where it gets. >> it goes on and on based after that answer. >> the administration can come clean but if they hide the truth, the oversight and ways and means committee, we'll keep after them. >> march 5th is the when it is next wednesday. >> and america's top military officer said the move sends a clear message to afghan president karzi that he needs to sign a security pact with the u.s. >> and a survey a noupsment from nasa. a faulty space suit that nearly ended in disaster for one on board of the international space station. >> bake aresville 61, oh, my gosh. you guys see this? there is a spider that fell. >> the spider saga did not end there. what happen when he spotted it again? >> was it a snake. >> a spider. >> and if you get caught in the web.

lois lerner and the irs were discussing cracking down on groups. she did the mea culpa in may of 2013, and they wanted to make sure it stayed quote, off of plan. we'll show you this e-mail, the chairman of the house, ways and means committee pressed the issue at a hearing yesterday. >> the committee has found irs e-mails from 2012 in which the irs and treasury discussed working on regulations quote, off plan, i'm sure that means hidden from the public. >> jay christian adams, good to see you again. we have the e-mail, it is pretty lengthy, goes on and on, from a woman named ruth madrigal, to among others, lois lerner, and what the e-mail says is look, don't know who in your organization is keeping tabs on those applying for c-4's, the tax except status, but since we mentioned them as addressed off plan i have my radar up. she goes on to talk about a court ruling that she believes will be very helpful to them that justifies the irs really giving it to those who are pacs. who are super pacs, who are openly political. she thinks it will be super helpf

part of it is probably giving immunity to lois lerner. she is clearly at the center of this she wouldn't get immunity if she lied to committee. it does seem like she is so much at the center you need to free her up to speak if you are ever going to get the final answer to this. >> i would never give her immunity. i would push the fact that she waived the fifth amendment when she spoke. all the document and emails around the edges and move in on her. a.b.? >> that's probably a good strategy. it's not one they have pursued. i, at this point, if they cannot get her, her lawyer says he has given the committee evidence she is under threat of serious physical harm or death threats that they're just going to bring her back to the committee. she is going to invoke the fifth and they are just going to embarrass her and get nowhere it's really a question they don't know what happened. if if you want to punish her or do you want to know what happened? she is going to tell everything if they give her immunity. it would be hard to see why that wouldn'

the head of the enforcement division was named lois lerner.oman a seriously difficult person immunity and get her to testify. >> i was going to just ask and just briefly because we're almost out of time. why aren't the republicans -- they do have control of the house. couldn't they be pushing this harder? >> exactly. on the day when she said i'm innocent and now i want the fifth amendment trey gowdy was the one who said she had forfeited that. either challenge her on that or give her use immunity and make her talk. who cares if she was a cog in all of this ends up in jail or not. we want to know the story and know who was involved and want to know who in washington because we know the orders came out of washington. wasn't cincinnati acting as a rogue agency, who in washington was involved. >> a minute ago you had her as a criminal, as al capone. >> i said i was not -- i was drawing a colorful analogy. >> suddenly she's been convicted and found with the money in her hands. >> like obama i make judgments in advance. >> doctor, i hope it's not pa

lois lerner took the fifth for a reason. government employees don't go rogue en masse. their orders originate somewhere. yet even with all these known violations of the law, no one has been blamed, shamed, fired, arrested or brought to justice. because of that i have to ask how many people in congress are taking this seriously. since my last testimony in congress, i still have not been contacted by the fbi. the fbi told the "wall street journal" that no one would be charged with a crime, yet they haven't even interviewed the witnesses. are you going to let them get away with this? if so, then i must say it again, my government has forgotten its place. it appears that many in washington fear regular citizens standing up for constitutional limited government. why in america is it now considered a threat to our government to study the founding documents and to advocate for responsible spending. why is giving out copies of the constitution, discussing pending legislation or even creating legislative score cards a threat to this administration? obviously these activities are

. >> is this getting lois lerner back on the hill? >> it is a top warning about planning for a full withdrawal in afghanistan. how it could encourage the enemy and there is this. >> that is on board of a school bus, and that is not cool. the driver is fighting with a teenager in her care. marge: you know, there's a more enjoyable way to get your fiber. (inaudible) wife: mmmm husband: these are good! marge: the tasty side of fiber. from phillips.

>>> and coming up, former irs official lois lerner recalled to testify about the conservative groups. her lawyer saying she will do it. but there is a catch. >>> and up next, the soldier who went out of her way refusing to salute the flag. and go to our facebook page, the kelly file, to tell us what you think about this story we'll bring you next. i saw mdoctor. a blood test showed it was low testosterone, not age. we talked about axiron the onlynderarm low t treaent that can restore t vels to normal in about two weeks in most men. axiron is not for use in women or anyone younger than 18 or men with prostate or breast cancer. women, especlly those who are or who may become pregnant, and children should avoidt where axirons applied as unexpected signs of puberty in children or changes in body hair or incased acne in women may occur. report these symptoms to your doctor. tell your doctorbout all medical conditions and medications. serious side effects could include increased sk of prostate cancer, worsening prostate symptoms,

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we hear back in 2012, that lois lerner was in the e-mail chain. and he was the irs official involved in the targeting who in a noncorrupt scandal, there is the picture of her. that was the day she refused to testify and took the fifth amendment to protect herself against self incrimination. and one point, when the irs would come up with the now regulation, it was as a response to the scandal. but the e-mail was before the scandal broke. and so the question becomes, why were they looking to tighten the regulations before there was a scandal. >> one key word is off plan. offering to taking it off line and talk about it in person. you mention the smidgeon comment. do we see the comment from the president in a different light already. >> last sunday it seemed odd. i am sitting there watching it and fortunate enough to be in the game but watching bill o'reilly with the president when he said there is not a smidgeon of 0 rupgz. i my reaction is how does he know that? there is no resolved of the wrongdoing here, so how can the president give a verdict an

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>> yes, they do not feel lois lerner has not been up front. in many ways she hasn't. pleaded the fifth and did not answer republicans questions last time she was on capitol hill. in fact we saw republican leaders send a message to the irs hoping to call more emails between lois lerner and other members of her staff, perhaps even between lois lerner and white house in order to investigate their question whether the white house was directly involved in some of this targeting. they haven't found a smoking gun yet. they're hoping to get it. they know if they bring lois lerner back before the committee and somehow compel her to testify maybe they get detailsthey exist. at the same time lois lerner is expected even if she comes back to plead the fifth again. it remains to be scene but i do think they want to see her again, jon. jon: elise, it will be interesting to watch all of this drama as it unfolds on capitol hill. elise v. beck from "the hill." >> thanks. jenna: president is putting infrastructure on his to-do list which john and elise was talking about. expecting to a

but the fact is rich carl guard when you look the lowelw lois lerner for example, what she's done, what she hasn't done, what she's pursued, didn't pursue, does she deserve it? she got $42,000 worth of bonuses in '10, '11, and '12. >> steve is right. they do not. this is a very corrupt organization. to sympathize with bruce, this doesn't apply to the majority of people that work at the irs. i feel sorry that they're tainted by the people who have indulged in this corruption. the corruption i'm talking about, they say it's the little things that have been looked at. catholic organizations, the selected enforcement by the irs is just astonishing. >> we already have the inspector general's report that says that they screwed up big time, that they were targeting tea party groups, that this charge by the left that it was equal tea party or even a little bit progressive movements in there, that wasn't true. >> yeah, you know, but when you watch the hearings, davgsd when you see what these individuals went through, you have to say to yourself, wow, this is really striking, there's something re

what does this mean that the treasury person is saying lois lerner says let's come up with this planne. >> it means not in the public view. it's very concerning, that's why we need all the e-mails, we need to get to the bottom of this, we don't have them, and hopefully the irs will cooperate. what this means is treasury was involved as well. this also means it's centered in washington. this didn't start in cincinnati, this wasn't based by a few rogue folks, and it's more widespread than what's been reported. this is bad from the get go, and the fact that they're trying to put it into rule before this is fully uncovered is just wrong. >> good to see you. thank you so much. >> take care, megan. >>> new fallout tonight in the benghazi terror attack. what they found in a scathing report and who it points the blame at next. tall the building is or how ornate the halls are. it doesn't matter if thereare g, or big mahogany desks. whenorking with an investment firm, what's really important is wther the peoe behiintroducing e schwaby stand actability guarantee.y. if you're not happy with one

lou: what are you going to do about lois lerner? dirty have the attorney general in contempt.hat are you going to do a former senior irs official? he's basically told you guys to buzz off. i have a bill, hr 1950 that criminalizes this action. lou: retroactively? >> the question is what are you going to do about lois lerner who has told you guys to buzz off. >> we are going to make certain that there are two aspects of the story are told. hold people accountable and find out who did this. and you move forward with the legislation that holds people accountable if it haapens again. and i think the american people are shocked at what has occurred at the irs that the administration is doing nothing and we are going to work diligently to hold these people accountable to make sure this doesn't happen again. lou: no one is a bbgger fan of darrell issa than i am. and i think you know that. you and your committee have done brilliant work. i do think that you run the risk again of being rendered impotent if you hadn't gotten an approach here with lois lerner and we will pass some legisla

lois lerner says she won't testify unless she is given immunity.he said she is not answering any questions unless the federal judge orders her to do so. a house committee ordered her last week. the last time she did that she pleaded the 5th amendment. >>> a near death of an astronaut during a space walk last year could have been avoided. >> a lot of water. >> luca'sally met started to fill with water as his eyes and mouth were blocked. turns out nasa knew about the week one week before the space walk but was never addressed. an investigation is ongoing. >>> the fukushima disaster could reach the west coast in weeks. the low radiation won't cause damage. they won't know for sure until they can start testing the samples. >> another deep freeze blanketing parts of the country. >> 20 below zero that's without the wind. >> you are absolutely right. in international falls the temperature is 25 degrees below zero. in minneapolis it is 9 degrees below zero. this is the actual temperature not the windchill. this is what it feels like when you head out the d

lois lerner took the fifth for a reason. government employees don't go rogue in mass. their orders originate from somewhere. martha: using these tactics against the people of the country, she feels. becky garrison touched on this. the president said this is tied up with a bow, just bone headed folks from cincinnati. he said it's over to bill o'reilly, move on. you say there is no investigation going on to have finished. >> none of the organizations. the ones who are my clients and the ones who aren't my clients. nun of them have been contacted by the justice department or fine. there are hundreds of thousands of witnesses out there. after i have submitted my testimony tuesday to the committee and we had to say in advance the hearing what we planned to testify about, i had to submit it in writing. within two hours after i submitted my testimony i had my first phone call from the department of justice asking to talk too me later in the week. i'm supposed to talk to them today. but i have been very outspoken about the fact they haven't spoke on tonight victims, the witnes

lois lerner wasn't fired. she has been set aside but i thought you were particularly good in irritating to them about you the benghazi when the secretary of state lied about explanation of what happened. that infewer united states them because you are exposing this administration the well-kept secrets, you are putting them out there front and center. they want to gloss right over it. >> all right. we are going to have more on the benghazi stuff with cammeron and rosen coming up and also tomorrow. i want everybody to understand the reason that it matters secretary clinton goes why does it matter? remember that? the reason it matters is if there was an attempt to suppress honest information in a murder case because you didn't want to make your campaign look bad that's serious. that's very very serious. that's why i'm interested in this story. i have got to ask powers this question. powers, you know i have been rude to you on this program do you know that once in a while. >> i have noticed that. >> not all the ti

>> the questio is what are you going to do about lois lerner who has told you guys to buzz off. >> we are going to make certain that there are two aspects of the story are told. hold people accountable and find out who did this. and you move forward with the legislation that holds people accountable if it haapens again. and i think the american people are shocked at what has occurred at the irs that the administration is doing nothing and we are going to work diligentlto hold these people accountable to make re this doesn't happen again. lou: no one is a bbgger fan of darrell issa than i am. and i think you know that. you and your committee have done brilliant work. i do think that you ruthe risk again of being rendered impotent if you hadn't gotn an approach here with lois lerner and we will pass some legislation later. and at some point it seems to me to have a strategy thatis effective in exerting its well or quit looking badly. >> in order to do an investigation you have to make certain that you are continuing at your getting all of the information. but it's not s happening within

lois lerner what about her?erner came and testified and tried to use the fifth amendment and she tried to claim she had a fifth amendment right of self incrimination and then ended up giving some testimony and that is called into question. they are worried about what can she say versus what she can't say. in the 1990s when i served as chief investigator for that very committee, we called in well, ou i the fbi director and janet reno and numbous prosecutor and numbous counsels for testimony for our full committee when they could not answer the question they didn't and told us why. but to say with a blank prosecutor cannot come and testify is outrageous and goes against the clinton administration and janet reno. >> president obama's interview with bill o'rielly. he used words bonehead decision making and not a smidgeon of corruption. but the investigation continues. and so where do we go from here? >> it is interesting. how can he say there is an ongoing investigation and multiple investigations yet he can state t

it is not a couple of agents in cincinnati but lois lerner and five deputy councils and deliberatelyrgeting. and that undermine and belie the president? >> of course it does. he also said in previous interviews and discussions that there was no political motivation behind this either. that doesn't pass the lap test. look at the time line here. over the course of two highly contested election cycles. you have the irs populated by left bureaucrats cracking down on the president's political opposition through a series of secretive targeting practices. and when they discovered it was going to be divulged to the public. they decided to leak it to the public and planted a question in a q and a and lying and admitting it was planted. >> their credibility is suspect. >> the white house changed their story half a dozen times when and how they targeted. and lois lerner, refused to testify before congress and, so the idea of no corruption and political motivation is lud krus. >> barbara bosserman contributed more than 6,000 to president obama's campaign. is that appropriate? >> listen, darril i

look who is on the address list, lois lerner who pleaded the fifth and refused to testify. many of the tea party groups singled out by the irs for attention. >> the irs scandal is real. it's not pretend. it's real. number two, the irs scandal is not just a bone headed bunch of bureaucrats in some remote office contrary to what the president of the united states told the american people on sunday. and number three, the irs scandal is not over. it is continuing to this day and the department of justice investigation is a sham. >> joining us now, another witness at the hearing, executive director of the american center for justice who represents 41 groups targeted by the irs. great to see you, jay. >> good to see you, gretchen. >> what was your main point as you testified today? >> it was interesting because we had prepared testimony that we submitted to the committee focusing on the fact irs was engaged in this acknowledged unconstitutional targeting. but when the e-mails you referred to earlier came out yesterday through ways and means committee, i redid my testimony last ni

lois lerner back in the news today. she was the head of the organization accused of targeting 500 conservative groups. when she was called to testify she refused. >> i have been advised by my counsel not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. bill: now a new hearing whether the investigation on that scandal was a sham as republicans call it. mike emanuel tells us with the emails. >> reporter: an email where lois lerner looking into the irs targeting of con rrp groups is cc'ed on this email. the regulations were released last november that some lawmakers say would shut down conservative groups. the house ways and means committee said this proves the new rules were in the work for years. >> i'm pretty sure that means hid from the public. would you agree with treasury and the irs fabricated the rationale for a rule change it would taint the process? >> reporter: house democrats are acuting camp of trying -- are accusing cam of trying to -- accusing camp of tries to keep his political

. >>> back here at home, former official lois lerner first revealed the scandal involving the irs's targetingnservative groups, but when did the targeting itself start? mike emanuel is on the timeline. >> a focus of the investigations looking into the irs targeting of conservative groups seeking tax exempt stating are trying to figure out how it started. after the supreme court ruling of january 2010 up holding the rights of groups to contribute to races, president obama called on them to fix it in his address. >> they reversed a century of law that i believe will open the flood gates for special interests. >> a month later, new york democratic senator chuck schumer announced he was introducing the disclose aid, and then in april 2010, the president warned about shadowy groups with harmless sounding names. they said the irs felt the pressure. >> we never heard about any problems with people applying for tax status since 1959 when there were rules put in place. we never had problems until 2009 when this administration took over. that's when it all started. >> at numerous congressional hearings

so how can the president say there's not a smidgeon of criminality when lois lerner invoked the fifth amendment, 41 witnesses haven't been interviewed including the two that are here right now? how can he possibly draw that conclusion? >> good question. >> i wish one of the colleagues on the other side of the aisle would ask the president how in the world he concluded no criminality when lois lerner sat in front of them and invoked her privilege against criminality? how do you square that. >> mr. dowdy, if i may, she invoked her fifth amendment privilege which she has the right to do, and you and i respect that, because we know the reason why. it wasn't perhaps as clear as it was made yesterday. she invoked her fifth amendment privilege because she knew after she made a false statement in a planted question at an aba meeting, she knew that, in fact, there was her words and her e-mails off plan drafting of rules targeting conservative groups. she also said at a forum that people are asking us what we can do. she said i can't do anything until i see the 990s, the tax returns that are fi

also, why would lois lerner plead the fifth if there is not a smidgen of corruption? there may not be. my suspicion is essentially the irs has become politicized all on its own and simply thinks it is their job to go to conservatives the weight is not to go after liberals. jon: let's take our viewers back to those electric moments on capitol hill when lois lerner formerly worked, worked with the irs at the time, was called in to testify. >> welcome i would very much like ants the committee committee's questions today. i've been advised by my counsel to assert a constitutional right not to testify or answer questions related to the subject matter of this hearing. after very careful considerati consideration, i have decided to follow my counsel's device and not testify or answer any of the questions today. jon: if the problem here was a bunch of boneheaded mistakes, you can't go to jail for being boneheaded, don't think you can even be sued for being boneheaded, so why should she take the fifth? >> she did not want to get caught up with what they described earlier in ou

why do they want to bring lois lerner back now. >> reporter: chairman issa says lois lerner's testimonyvantages the committees investigation. in a letter to learner's attorney, mr. issa wrote, miss learner's testimony remains critical to the committees investigation. documents obtained by the committee showed she play ad significant role in scrutinizing applications for the tax-exempt status for conservative organizations. miss learner participated partif plan work to develop rules that would allow the irs to stifle constitutionally protected political speech by non-profit groups. mr. learner's testimony will allow the committee to better understand how and why the irs targeted certain organization. so darrell issa expects her to appear march 5th when this hearing reconvenes, bill. bill: they expect her to appear. what is the response from learner so far, mike? >> reporter: i've been in touch with william taylor iii who is her attorney. he expects to respond to the letter sometime today. we remember her coming up to capitol hill last may, pleading the fifth after giving an opening state

the woman who took lois lerner's place and not testifying but has contributed to the president and hismmissions and those who head them have to be politically blind and that can't come up as an issue. in this case it would have been a germane issue. but nevertheless, she is not part of it. not part of the hearings. investigations ensue.ñrñr groups like yours have not been called. where is all this going? >> well, there's añrñr new chapr in the story and it's going to be a big chapter, and that is that the recent -- we just fount out that lois lerner, during the 2012 election cycle, was secretly offplan, as she calls it, working with top officials in the chief counsel's office at the irs to rewrite the rules so that this targeting could continue with the new groups. listen to what i have to do now. when these new rules pass soon, i'm not allowed to use the words oppose, vote, reject, i am not even allowed to mention a candidate's name, if they're running for office within 60 days of the general election. i can't mention the name of a political party if they have a candidate running with

lois lerner still hasn't turned over the emails that have been requested by congress. congress hasn't even finished its investigation on this tea party business. already these employees are getting bonuses and rewards. >> i know the response is going to be not everybody was involved in targeting. until they at least get to the bottom of it. some people must have known things were going on. they must know what colleagues are doing. at least until we get to the bottom of this investigation that has been so slow moving, that, you know, it seems, you know, the time something really bad. >> we have emails from d.c. telling the field officers to sit on the applications, second them in. pass a few and sit on it. >> so the whole organization, i mean, your view is that the whole organization shouldn't get bonus? >> this is time of sequester when we are trying to cut back. you don't give bonuses in the midst of failure. like i said, what are we going to do reward those that put together this failed web site for obamacare? you don't reward failure. >> nice to see. >> you good to

lois lerner did not plead the fifth because nothing was going on, i trust. get to pay her pension and all of that. but people did bad things to people. they abused the power of the government to hurt people who were running. >> local situation. >> that is something that has to be answered for. >> i don't think they are going to nail him. >> at the time g. et to the bottom of it and upset dismissive. hearings and they were done. >> that's a technique. don't you think that when the president president says you fox news and you o'reilly and bringing stuff up and that's why people are crazed about it. don't you think that's a deflexion and that he just should answer the question? look, how simple is the question? even you can answer, yawn. >> gee, thanks. >> why didn't you fire sebelius. >> i think he did answer you. more intent on healthcare than he is on the fumble that occurred. look, he would have to say i didn't fire because this reason, you know, he just told you the reason is he wants people in place who he has trust in and correct. >> he said to you repe

the committee and attorney for lois lerner are engaged in discussions about a proffer. where the attorney can go forward on a very confidential basis and tell the lawmakers what his witness might be inclined to tell the committee if the witness did receive immunity. there hasn't been much offered by way of proffer. >> so really nothing happened today. rosen, you may remember was involved in some kind of wiretap deal where he was trying to get some information why don't you see what happened there. you described this very inaccurately. which and listen, we don't begrudge it, we love you anyway, bill. what happened was disclosed by the "the washington post" that the department of justice had break into my personal email account as part of the investigation of an alleged source of mine that individual had been charged with a, allegedly unlawfully leaking national defense information about north korea to me and then allegedly b, that individual earlier this month, entered a guilty plea and awaiting sentencing and probably stands to serve 8 to 13 months in prison. >> all rig

having lois lerner come back up to testify again. is there any expectation that she will have anything new to add? >> i don't expect that she will. her lawyer has already made it clear that if she comes, she will be taking the fifth. and i think basically this is an extension of the republicans' effort to draw this irs investigation on and on and on. keep in mind these investigations have gone on for now more than nine months. irs employees have been tied up more than 250 of them tied up and working more than 90,000 hours trying to address issues that have been raised by the republicans. and so far they have not found any evidence of any involvement by the white house with regard to this so-called targeting of enemies. and political enemies. and they have not found any political motivation. as a matter of fact, you would think that if we were going to do a good investigation, that person who started all this should be brought before the committee, conservative republican who says he's the one who started looking into the various 501-

. >> one thing that is getting lost in all of this, we are not formally complete before lois lerner spoke before a group in which she planted a question to ask about this. someone in the irs that acknowledged when they gain this inappropriate treatment the irs had months before it was released and did not question, were released. and releasing which is unprecedented. it is not as if we went out of our way to cast a pall on any particular group. >> i was really -- >> we will have time to appreciate that. mr. yoder. >> thank you for coming to testify. we have had an eventful morning, the last year or so, put the irs and rulemaking authority on the front page, and the trust deficit, lies between those who enforce the law. and fairly and impartially, we know it hasn't been occurring and mr. serrano and mr. george had a dialogue you. your point was one that i was going to make, it was in may of 2013 when lois lerner came out and apologized and said it was inappropriate to make comments to that regard. i think regardless of the original motive that is what we're trying to determine, how this ha

. >> so how can the president say there is not a smidgen of criminality when lois lerner invoked theifth amendment 41 witnesses haven't been interviewed including the two that are here right now? i wish one of of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle would ask the president how in the world he concluded no criminality when lois lerner sat in front of them and invoked her privilege against criminality. he has gone on national television. he has pre-judged the investigation. and, in my judgment, has compromised the department of justice. either he is wrong or eric holder is wrong. in either case, it is time for special counsel, mr. chairman. >> and congressman trey gowdy joins us. good evening, sir. >> hey, greta, how are you? >> good. i can hear the frustration in your voice and i know that prior to becoming a member of congress, you were a federal prosecutor, assistant united states attorney. how would you investigate this case because i can tell you are deeply disturbed by not getting to the bottom of it. >> well, greta, one reason i was as frustrated as i was today is i had

bill: where does it go after lois lerner?> you know, bill, i hope that the department of justice at some point takes this investigation seriously because as you know i can't prosecute lois lerner. i can't indict her. i can't put her in prison. only the executive branch can do that and the president after his super bowl interview said there is not a smidgen of corruption. if the doj will not do their job criminally, we'll have to do our job oversight. congress can not prosecute her. we can't indict her and put her in jail except for contempt of congress for not talking. bill: one more point from yesterday's hearing whether or not anybody has been fired. watch. >> how many in the department have been reprimanded or terminated as a result of that latest scandal and scrutiny of various organizations? >> that process is still, there is a review board that leadership from the top on down is all gone at this point. and several of the people are no longer at the irs. bill: i take it, zero? do you have other information on that? >> i