echr course, we should leave the echr, says bob.a violation of our human rights. i do wonder whether or not many people thought that when we voted to leave the european union that we would stop having to listen to what people, foreign judges thought about our particular laws as well. i do wonder if that's something that people thought would happen. of course you would have been mistaken in that view, aiden says leaving is sending a bad message, it's not the point message, but it's not the point . the point is taking back ownership of our future here. there are elements that could be changed revised, many changed or revised, but many that and that can be adopted and strengthened as well. look, clearly strengthened as well. look, cleatrying do when stood was trying to do when she stood up washington a couple of up in washington a couple of days ago and that speech on days ago and gave that speech on the refugee status on asylum seekers, on illegal migration and on legal migration, was to say world that, look, say to the world that, lo

but disapplying aspect of the echr is seen as more likely.the list, is enacting a clause in recent legislation, to bypass rule 39 orders under the convention — interim injections that have blocked flights. stopping small boats is a defining issue for this government, and so thatjudgement by the supreme court in the next few monday also be a big moment, rishi sunak obviously can't decide that, but he does want to show he has a plan, hence those question marks over the uk's continuing membership of the echr. that is being welcomed in some quarters of the party but is lazings eyebrows among others. —— raising. so why is the home secretary floating this idea? i think in part, it is a signal to the echr. it's a political court although they won't admit it. the actions of government do have an effect on rulings, so i think that some minister and people in government might hope if they can sway strasbourg judges that too many rulings will lead to the uk withdrawing it might take them to come to a more benign view. this is our finest hour _ come to a

my personal views on the echr have been chronicled and a very| echr have been chronicled and a very cleara legitimate question for all of us to be asking in the uk is whether it is operation and its interpretation by the court is compatible with our pressing need to control our borders and national sovereignty. we have engineered and struck a ground—breaking deal with rwanda, we believe that to be in compliance with our international obligations and compatible with international law frameworks. we havejust and compatible with international law frameworks. we have just past the new legislation in the form of the new legislation in the form of the illegal migration bill, we consider that to be compliant. we are wanting to work within those frameworks and we are confident that we can achieve that but i do think legitimate questions need to be asked about the somewhat ill fitting nature of how these outdated international models are sitting with the global migration crisis of the 21st—century. h0??? with the global migration crisis of the 21st-century._ with the global migration crisis of the

and robert, we must leave the echr as as leave the echr as fast as possible.e people telling the world that we do not want be ruled the eu . no want to be ruled by the eu. no independent country would tolerate by a foreign tolerate meddling by a foreign court . well, talking of foreign court. well, talking of foreign courts, it's been three and a half years now since the glorious day of january 1st, 2020, when britain broke free from the yoke of the european union. i think it's 2021 inches the to be clear, the the end. and to be clear, the european union is constituted by the commission, the european commission, the european the european parliament, the european parliament, the european the european council and the european council and the european justice . well, european court of justice. well, the justice in the european court of justice in what can only seem to be a prank, handed the united what can only seem to be a prank, a handed the united what can only seem to be a prank, a fine ed the united what can only seem to be a prank, a fine ed £32 united what

should we ditch that echr ? echr?inly should, but it is a complex business as we're tied into echr , not just we're tied into echr, notjust in a single treaty , but in in a single treaty, but in a whole series of treaties which specify in a complying with echr. so it is going to be a complicated process, but i don't want that to be made the excuse i would like. now rishi sunak to say right away that it is our intention not floating ideas . it intention not floating ideas. it is our intention, our firm intention to leave echr at and he can admit that it will take a while and not to build up expectations like he did over rwanda , but instead to say that rwanda, but instead to say that this is nevertheless the direction of travel. this is what we're doing. we've had enough. what we're doing. we've had enough . i mean, that's what he enough. i mean, that's what he just needs to say to them. we've had enough. indeed >> so, however, do we not risk the opprobrium of the world if we pull out, britain becomes a rogue state? >>

wallace is outlining the echr. he calls it lunacy . and yet , he calls it lunacy. should we leave? oh, no, let's stay. members of it. and it reminds me, as i say, of the old tory eurosceptics, everything's dreadful about the european union. but we should stay as members. >> well, not not this tory eurosceptic, mate. no, no , eurosceptic, mate. no, no, no, no, no. >> but i mean time you were >> but i mean the time you were europe it's long europe minister, it's a long time back. the point i'm making is the party doesn't to is the party doesn't seem to have courage of the logical have the courage of the logical conclusion that had been reached by, as you say, the longest serving conservative defence minister who's been involved in the war on terror, on counter—terrorism . um, and it's counter—terrorism. um, and it's all well and good you sitting here and saying we should revisit it. what in god's name does that mean? >> all right, look, you've basically got three positions. one, we continue as we are the second position is that we say in certain areas we will no deli

wallace is outlining the echr. he calls it lunacy . and yet , he calls it lunacy.hould we leave? oh, no, let's stay. members of it. and it reminds me, as i say, of the old tory eurosceptics, everything's dreadful about the european union. but we should stay as members. >> well, not not this tory eurosceptic, mate. no, no , eurosceptic, mate. no, no, no, no, no. >> but i mean time you were >> but i mean the time you were europe it's long europe minister, it's a long time back. the point i'm making is the party doesn't to is the party doesn't seem to have courage of the logical have the courage of the logical conclusion that had been reached by, as you say, the longest serving conservative defence minister who's been involved in the war on terror, on counter—terrorism . um, and it's counter—terrorism. um, and it's all well and good you sitting here and saying we should revisit it. what in god's name does that mean? >> all right, look, you've basically got three positions. one, we continue as we are the second position is that we say in certain areas we will no deline

echr we solution.r of refugees that are allowed to resettle in this country at a much, smaller so that much, much smaller level so that we a sustainable way. we can have a sustainable way. >> the way , be women and children. >> never said leaving the echr is the only thing we should be doing. you know, believe doing. you know, i believe in a turn policy , for example, turn back policy, for example, there's of we there's lots of things we need to doing, i think leaving to be doing, but i think leaving the is the only way that we the echr is the only way that we can gain proper sovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders.yper sovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. andsovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. and thateignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. and thateignta of our borders. and that was a critical they won't do it if he was going to do it, he would have now. have done it by now. >> not. he doesn't. >> he's not. he doesn'

echr we solution.of refugees that are allowed to resettle in this country at a much, smaller so that much, much smaller level so that we a sustainable way. we can have a sustainable way. >> the way , be women and children. >> never said leaving the echr is the only thing we should be doing. you know, believe doing. you know, i believe in a turn policy , for example, turn back policy, for example, there's of we there's lots of things we need to doing, i think leaving to be doing, but i think leaving the is the only way that we the echr is the only way that we can gain proper sovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders.yper sovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. andsovereignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. and thateignty of the echr is the only way that we can borders. and thateignta of our borders. and that was a critical they won't do it if he was going to do it, he would have now. have done it by now. >> not. he doesn't. >> he's not. he doesn't.

now, the answer is to come out of echr. it's not to abandon all human rights.t's to have our own bill of rights, which is proportionate and sensible and limited and ditch echr not so easy because of various treaty obligations, but could be done if only we had a government that was determined to do it. >> is this a bit like brexit? round two, this whole question of a court that is completely outlived the usefulness of its original intention, rather like the trade deal that we were sold back in the common market days had become a political union. do you think the british public are ready for this? >> i think they're ready for us to come out of echr because i think gradually , just through think gradually, just through stories like this , it's stories like this, it's gradually infiltrating the pubuc gradually infiltrating the public consciousness that this institution isn't working the way that it was designed to work when it was very first set up. and things do become redundant over the years. things that were desperately necessary when they were created do becom

, that we're not able to the echr, that we're not able to the echr, that we're not able to do it . so in theory, we can to do it. so in theory, we can we can take someone out with a drone, but we couldn't go and kill them . we can't capture we kill them. we can't capture we can kill them with a drone, but actually we can't go in with special forces and kill them or extract them. that's my understanding. >> when we saw that footage, though, if you remember that footage of american footage of the american administration or sat around watching footage , i, watching the live footage, i, i was deeply uncomfortable with that. was deeply uncomfortable with that . but it was deeply uncomfortable with that. but it was it was i thought i'm glad we're not that country that sits around with our government watching someone going them and watching going to find them and watching them shot. them being shot. >> it's a matter of national >> but it's a matter of national security. the first role of government to protect the government is to protect the citizens of the united kingdom and you and some

now, the answer is to come out of echr. it's not to abandon all human rights. it's to have our own bill of rights, which is proportionate and sensible and limited and ditch echr not so easy because of various treaty obligations, but could be done if only we had a government that was determined to do it. >> is this a bit like brexit? round two, this whole question of a court that is completely outlived the usefulness of its original intention, rather like the trade deal that we were sold back in the common market days had become a political union. do you think the british public are ready for this? >> i think they're ready for us to come out of echr because i think gradually , just through think gradually, just through stories like this , it's stories like this, it's gradually infiltrating the pubuc gradually infiltrating the public consciousness that this institution isn't working the way that it was designed to work when it was very first set up. and things do become redundant over the years. things that were desperately necessary when they were created do bec

in june last year, echr blocked the year, the echr blocked the democratically elected british government'swanda deportation flight government's rwanda deportation fligi is government's rwanda deportation fliins five minutes but is it five minutes to midnight membership midnight for the uk's membership of court? of the convention and court? well, minister has well, the prime minister has authorised braverman authorised suella braverman to threaten uk's threaten the court with the uk's departure. as we await the forthcoming rwanda forthcoming supreme court rwanda showdown month. showdown early next month. and speaking courts, who speaking of european courts, who could known would still could have known we would still suffer european suffer the woes of the european union? more than three and a half leaving it? the half years after leaving it? the european has european court of justice has had to the had the audacity to find the united kingdom million, united kingdom £32 million, even though britain though we've left it. as britain faces from faces an horrific story from south london, a young

. >> leave the echr there's the solution next, >> leave the echr there's the sollalbee next, >> leavehr there's the sollalbee and next, >> leave the echr there's the sollalbee and he next, >> leave the echr there's the sollalbee and he thinks next, >> leave the echr there's the sollalbee and he thinks that t, it's albee and he thinks that this week's peckham protests are ridiculous. the is ridiculous. i'll be the floor is indeed yours. ridiculous. i'll be the floor is ind�*thislours. ridiculous. i'll be the floor is ind�*this week, racial tensions in >> this week, racial tensions in inner city london reached fever pitch when an altercation between when a shopkeeper and a customer in london's peckham went viral on social media. a would be customer attacked a shopkeeper after a dispute , but shopkeeper after a dispute, but believed to be over some hair products. and the shopkeeper defended himself by briefly holding the woman in a chokehold. black lives matter style protests erupted on peckham rye lane outside the shop afterwards, and anti—racist commentators and organisations like the

in june last year, echr blocked the year, the echr blocked the democratically elected british government'swanda deportation flight government's rwanda deportation fligi is government's rwanda deportation fliins five minutes but is it five minutes to midnight membership midnight for the uk's membership of court? of the convention and court? well, minister has well, the prime minister has authorised braverman authorised suella braverman to threaten uk's threaten the court with the uk's departure. as we await the forthcoming rwanda forthcoming supreme court rwanda showdown month. showdown early next month. and speaking courts, who speaking of european courts, who could known would still could have known we would still suffer european suffer the woes of the european union? more than three and a half leaving it? the half years after leaving it? the european has european court of justice has had to the had the audacity to find the united kingdom million, united kingdom £32 million, even though britain though we've left it. as britain faces from faces an horrific story from south london, a young

. towards the echr. >> and if the supreme court rules it's illegal policy.an court, which is why suella braverman is already floating the idea. we've got to seriously consider withdrawing . well consider withdrawing. well that's always a possibility. >> and we'll remember that in the past it has, of course been echr judge moments that have stopped individual plans from going on a plane to rwanda. last minute rulings from judges in the echr not stopping the plane from flying, if we remember. but just taking every single individual off that plane. it didn't rule out the rwanda scheme. it ruled out those individuals from taking part in the rwanda scheme. so there is every possibility that this is legal under the terms of the echr, because the only time that it has been stopped before hand by the echr has been to stop, not the scheme in general, not the idea that an individual might go to rwanda if they are arrive illegally in the united kingdom , but that those specific kingdom, but that those specific circum instances of those specific individuals were deemed

why don't we start by a veto on the echr and the un charter? do as we, like many other countries, use their veto . so let's get on with it . i . so let's get on with it. i mean, significant thoughts there . this was a major, major speech by the home secretary. as i said earlier , hard to imagine a home earlier, hard to imagine a home secretary making that sort of speech two, three, four years ago. really is . let's just play ago. really is. let's just play ago. really is. let's just play a quick clip before i go to my next guest, peter tatchell in the studio. quick clip of actually what suella braverman said . said. >> let me be clear. said. >> let me be clear . there are >> let me be clear. there are vast swathes of the world where it is extremely difficult to be gay or to be a woman , where gay or to be a woman, where individuals are being persecuted. it is right that we offer sanctuary , but we will not offer sanctuary, but we will not be able to sustain an asylum system if in effect simply being gay or a woman or fearful of discrimination i

why don't we start by a veto on the echr and the un charter? do as we, like many other countries, use their veto . so let's get on with it . i . so let's get on with it. i mean, significant thoughts there . this was a major, major speech by the home secretary. as i said earlier , hard to imagine a home earlier, hard to imagine a home secretary making that sort of speech two, three, four years ago. really is . let's just play ago. really is. let's just play ago. really is. let's just play a quick clip before i go to my next guest, peter tatchell in the studio. quick clip of actually what suella braverman said . said. >> let me be clear. said. >> let me be clear . there are >> let me be clear. there are vast swathes of the world where it is extremely difficult to be gay or to be a woman , where gay or to be a woman, where individuals are being persecuted. it is right that we offer sanctuary , but we will not offer sanctuary, but we will not be able to sustain an asylum system if in effect simply being gay or a woman or fearful of discrimination i

but the uk has to get out of the echr . it has to get out of the echr. if the uk is to be truly sovereign, it has to leave the european convention. now also, of course, she addressed the un refugee convention. she called for it to be reformed. but the reality is that reform within the united nafionsis that reform within the united nations is virtually impossible at and i think that and she went to on say now that really she thought it was impossible for a reason that i think many people will agree with the international community, as indeed individuals are too indeed many individuals are too afraid of being called racist or illiberal in order to deal with a problem. a very real problem. >> essence , that they >> and in essence, that they would rather sit back would probably rather sit back and the world burn as and watch the world burn as opposed to actually sticking their parapet their head above the parapet and doing it's doing something. and it's on that i'll put my final that nail that i'll put my final point which is suella point to you, which is sue

so you'd with the existing echr. more court battles. think, you know, battles. so i think, you know, a government does need to address this, i don't think one this, but i don't think the one that has the time that we've got has got the time or the ability to. and as i mentioned, the bill mentioned, they pulled the bill of yeah, exactly. look, david, mentioned, they pulled the bill of ye youexactly. look, david, mentioned, they pulled the bill of ye you very.y. look, david, mentioned, they pulled the bill of ye you very much.., david, mentioned, they pulled the bill of ye you very much. fascinating thank you very much. fascinating discussion really discussion. really, really informative , informative stuff. david hague, there international human there is an international human rights lawyer. am deeply rights lawyer. i am deeply interested in what ben wallace has had to say. i think many people, not all, but many people, not all, but many people, ben as people, regard ben wallace as being pretty straightforward people,

they not even leave the they could not even leave the echr.ld suspend parts of it, but they have chosen not to. chose around with to. they've chose to around with the illegal immigration bill. rwanda and millions off to the french, which have not impacted the numbers . and think it's the numbers. and i think it's the numbers. and i think it's the across europe. the same across europe. dan, a recent from eurobarometer recent poll from eurobarometer for has said that at 20 out of 27 eu nation states have put immigration as the number top concern, whereas the seven states have put terrorism as their top concern. >> so this is a european problem. >> we're fed up of having to pay for our leaders mistakes and inability to put the interests of their citizens first. carole malone you have lost faith with rishi sunak on this too. >> you say he's become a parody of himself. what do you mean? well, in the sense that, you know, he keeps on saying , we know, he keeps on saying, we will stop the boats every week. >> he says we will stop the boats. doing abs

they not even leave the they could not even leave the echr.ld suspend parts of it, but they have chosen not to. chose around with to. they've chose to around with the illegal immigration bill. rwanda and millions off to the french, which have not impacted the numbers . and think it's the numbers. and i think it's the numbers. and i think it's the across europe. the same across europe. dan, a recent from eurobarometer recent poll from eurobarometer for has said that at 20 out of 27 eu nation states have put immigration as the number top concern, whereas the seven states have put terrorism as their top concern. >> so this is a european problem. >> we're fed up of having to pay for our leaders mistakes and inability to put the interests of their citizens first. carole malone you have lost faith with rishi sunak on this too. >> you say he's become a parody of himself. what do you mean? well, in the sense that, you know, he keeps on saying , we know, he keeps on saying, we will stop the boats every week. >> he says we will stop the boats. doing abs

as if the uk doesn't have a powered history of human rights dating back to magna carta and the echr is to manage just fine. none of this is particularly novel, nor should it be particularly controversial. as home secretary, trees and make a call for britain to leave the echr and it was because of the party policy under michael howard to lead the dust might leave the refugee convention. i am really advocating for reform. while the underlying framework is both a connecting factor to the problem and a barrier to certain fixes, some countries have been more successful in tackling illegal migration bill brothers. scalia had to cope with two major waves of illegal maritime migration across the pacific in the last two decades. in the last wave, before they stopped at the crosses, more than 52,000 unauthorised maritime arrivals and around 1100 deaths at sea were recorded between 2008 and 2014. operation southern borders so boats intercepted and then those on board were either returned once they had travelled or taken to immigration detention centres in third countries. there were some 400 ille

the home attack on the echr.nternational conventions are fit for purpose. is she right to do so? then? how would you have fared? learning maths and english till 18? well, your kids might find out first hand. the prime minister is reportedly planning a radical shake up of a—levels. but would it make us a smarter nation , or are we smarter nation, or are we perhaps at risk of stifling creativity ? not everyone is good creativity? not everyone is good at maths and english. coming up at maths and english. coming up at the end of the hour, the equalities watchdog has made clear for the first time that schools will not be breaking the law if they refuse to call children by their chosen name or genden children by their chosen name or gender. sense or gender. is this common sense or discrimination will sense discrimination will make sense of later on in the show. and of it later on in the show. and do get in touch. send us your thoughts on gbviews@gbnews.com. send me message on our send me a message on our socials. at gb

. for a renegotiation of the echr. so is the european court or so this is the european court or convention of human rights that stopped the rwanda flight, stopped the rwanda flight, stopped the rwanda flight, stopped the uk dealing with the with the issue of illegal migration, which, you know, people think it's cruel to deal with it, not dealing with it is crueller. it's funding criminal gangs. and people are dying crossing, crossing the channel. so we need to we need to stop it. rwanda was an expensive bit, you know, workable plan to reduce it . and apparently reduce it. and apparently illegal immigration is becoming according to the tory mps they speak to here, it's becoming a bigger issue for voters . so this bigger issue for voters. so this is something that needs to be tackled. >> it's sort of part of the real rishi package that's coming out. the tough policies for the election. think, election. what do you think, josh? this isn't he's not josh? well, this isn't he's not he's it. he's not going to do it. >> it's c

>> well, it says badenoch piles pressure on sunak to quit echr . pressure on sunak to quit echr.n't know whether it's piling pressure on us. she did an interview with the sunday times. this woman, kemi badenoch , who this woman, kemi badenoch, who i'm finding out more about and the think what's happening the way i think what's happening is, is sunday times is kind is, is the sunday times is kind of her to the new of positioning her to be the new replacement for rishi sunak because as she's coming out with all these great ideas and she's just the latest person who's and i think because she's a person of colour, she was born in nigeria , india. she actually nigeria, india. she actually grew up in america . and then she grew up in america. and then she moved back here. so it's quite possible she could represent three countries and someone who left america because their career needed it. >> you've got a lot in common with this. is that. >> yeah, i think i think with her it's going to work out better than it's worked out for me. >> yeah. nick, you all know about this. look, people abo

is she right that legal frameworks such as the echr are no longer fit for purpose? superstar panel. next was meghan markle alongside harry denied the microphone at this star studded charity event organised by hollywood kevin by hollywood actor kevin costner. this was quite a moment, wasn't it? my royal master, my lady colin campbell and have the inside and phil dampier have the inside scoop about what went down in montecito. they'll live next so the first newspaper front pages are coming up. they're hot off the press . pages are coming up. they're hot off the press. bring pages are coming up. they're hot off the press . bring them to off the press. bring them to you. after ten. but it's time now for my royal milestones. lady colin campbell and phil dampier. and buckingham palace has with has been dragged into a row with his historians over the fate of the queen's personal the late queen's personal letters diaries , according letters and diaries, according to the mail. on sunday, king charles has entrusted loyal palace aide paul whybrow , known palace aide paul whybr

is she right that legal frameworks such as the echr are no longer fit for purpose? superstar panel. next was meghan markle alongside harry denied the microphone at this star studded charity event organised by hollywood kevin by hollywood actor kevin costner. this was quite a moment, wasn't it? my royal master, my lady colin campbell and have the inside and phil dampier have the inside scoop about what went down in montecito. they'll next so the first newspaper front pages are coming up. they're hot off the press . pages are coming up. they're hot off the press. bring pages are coming up. they're hot off the press . bring them to off the press. bring them to you. after ten. but it's time now for my royal milestones. lady colin campbell and phil dampier. and buckingham palace has with has been dragged into a row with his historians over the fate of the queen's personal the late queen's personal letters diaries , according letters and diaries, according to the mail. on sunday, king charles has entrusted loyal palace aide paul whybrow , known palace aide paul whybrow, k

she was saying in 2010 that it was mooted to withdraw from the echr. but that is complicated echr.is so complicated because importance to the because of its importance to the uk on a world stage. how can we lecture or talk to other countries about their human rights records? maybe russia or china if we withdraw from this convention, might affect not convention, it might affect not in good way the good friday in a good way the good friday agreement in northern ireland and also might well affect in and also it might well affect in the alone how people are the uk alone how old people are looked after in care homes because the way human because of the way the human rights act were incorporates much of convention in 1998. much of that convention in 1998. so complicated. but so it's complicated. patrick but the is, i think what the the point is, i think what the tory right is now saying almost as one voice, it needs to be brought back into the kind of common sense space. >> absolutely. course, >> yeah, absolutely. of course, the prevalent when the echr is most prevalent when it to illega

this really, it seems what divides everybody is echr . you're everybody is echr.e a strong proponent of us being part of the european convention on human rights. i'm not, as you know, i think i think it's past its sell by date. but isn't this report just condemning the government on the basis that you and just think we should be following the echr to the letter? well to be fair, i mean, it's a report produced by a group of people. >> i'm on the council of justice. i don't happen to actually agree with all of it. some of the some of the bill's some the acts parliament some of the acts of parliament were i put through. were ones that i put through. and can you, though, that and i can tell you, though, that i do not feel who are breaching the rule law, however, which the rule of law, however, which i think, know, take your i think, you know, i take your point fully and frankly on board. i mean, there will be elements which which elements of this which which which actually politics which actually are politics as opposed to something seriously constitutional. opposed t

needing to leave the echr fright ctually delivering us to on needing to leave the echr fright ?xit right? >> well, there there's an argument that leaving the echr won't , but i think won't change much, but i think we need to adopt an australian style policy where you physically boats . physically turn back the boats. i all the ngos i don't care what all the ngos say and cry—babies turn the say and the cry—babies turn the boats back we saw in boats back like we saw in australia and they'll stop coming. >> you know if there's >> you know what? if there's a suspicion is not a child suspicion someone is not a child and they're claiming to be a child, then there be child, then there should be an age think that should child, then there should be an ageyou think that should child, then there should be an ageyou tithat'siat should child, then there should be an ageyou tithat's commoni be, you know, that's common sense. but anyway , we've got to sense. but anyway, we've got to move on. sorry still to come tonight, lewis oakley has a plan which he says fix the house which he says will fix

this really, it seems what divides everybody is echr . you're everybody is echr.'re a strong proponent of us being part of the european convention on human rights. i'm not, as you know, i think i think it's past its sell by date. but isn't this report just condemning the government on the basis that you and just think we should be following the echr to the letter? well to be fair, i mean, it's a report produced by a group of people. >> i'm on the council of justice. i don't happen to actually agree with all of it. some of the some of the bill's some the acts parliament some of the acts of parliament were i put through. were ones that i put through. and can you, though, that and i can tell you, though, that i do not feel who are breaching the rule law, however, which the rule of law, however, which i think, know, take your i think, you know, i take your point fully and frankly on board. i mean, there will be elements which which elements of this which which which actually politics which actually are politics as opposed to something seriously constitutional. opposed

it's going to the supreme judge at the echr , so supreme judge at the echr, so european.opean. so there's been it a european court on rule 39. so thatis european court on rule 39. so that is coming in. but nobody is speaking about deterrent factor here. you can do all you want, put all the money in, but until you start removing people and sending them back to pretty. >> i get it. i get it. i get it. final thought. pretty you because of your views , because because of your views, because of your perfectly reasonable views have been abused. have been accused of being a bully . been accused of being a bully. and i've had some pretty vicious cartoons done of me. but i think the ones of you perhaps were even worse. you've received abuse on the most astonishing level. you've been painted out to be the devil, the witch, really. i mean, you know, you've been painted out to me. i'm just all awful. you're evil . that all awful. you're evil. that must impact you and your family. >> so it's deeply unpleasant. and even this year, i've had people try to assault me as well. when i've be

it's going to the supreme judge at the echr , so supreme judge at the echr, so european.opean. so there's been it a european court on rule 39. so thatis european court on rule 39. so that is coming in. but nobody is speaking about deterrent factor here. you can do all you want, put all the money in, but until you start removing people and sending them back to pretty. >> i get it. i get it. i get it. final thought. pretty you because of your views , because because of your views, because of your perfectly reasonable views have been abused. have been accused of being a bully . been accused of being a bully. and i've had some pretty vicious cartoons done of me. but i think the ones of you perhaps were even worse. you've received abuse on the most astonishing level. you've been painted out to be the devil, the witch, really. i mean, you know, you've been painted out to me. i'm just all awful. you're evil . that all awful. you're evil. that must impact you and your family. >> so it's deeply unpleasant. and even this year, i've had people try to assault me as well. when i've be

why don't we start by a veto on the echr and the un charter? do as we, like many other countries, use their veto . so let's get on with it . i . so let's get on with it. i mean, significant thoughts there . this was a major, major speech by the home secretary. as i said earlier , hard to imagine a home earlier, hard to imagine a home secretary making that sort of speech two, three, four years ago. really is . let's just play ago. really is. let's just play ago. really is. let's just play a quick clip before i go to my next guest, peter tatchell in the studio. quick clip of actually what suella braverman said . said. >> let me be clear. said. >> let me be clear . there are >> let me be clear. there are vast swathes of the world where it is extremely difficult to be gay or to be a woman , where gay or to be a woman, where individuals are being persecuted. it is right that we offer sanctuary , but we will not offer sanctuary, but we will not be able to sustain an asylum system if in effect simply being gay or a woman or fearful of discrimination i

and i think you'll find that the echr will turn around and say , echr will turn around and say, wellt nigel, that's what she's trying to change. she's she's she wants , you know the global she wants, you know the global community other nations to actually think this these international rules and regulations and that likely includes echr likely includes , includes echr likely includes, of course, the un. they need to change. they need to be updated because you can't have a situation where people can claim asylum on all sorts of different grounds that perhaps aren't aren't, you know, aren't , aren't aren't, you know, aren't, aren't right, aren't correct anymore . right, aren't correct anymore. >> we've travelled through lots of safe countries. >> we certainly have. >> we certainly have. >> that's main thing, >> and that's the main thing, isn't it, that these people aren't, know, fleeing war aren't, you know, fleeing war torn they're torn countries. they're fleeing france. they've been france. and often they've been through of countries. through lots of safe countries. italy, it's just

i don't the echr stepping in.s in favour of the government that we're going to anyone going we're going to see anyone going on soon. so it on planes any time soon. so it will go down to the echr and then that's ahead of a coming general election. so i think you'll see a lot of elections airing around that point, even if we get to that point where the supreme court gets in the way of the government. >> and don't forget that elections every election since 2010, the public has voted to take back control of our borders . are we going to be heading, do you think, for an all mighty face off and political, ali, what does it mean the what does it mean for the conservative party they lose? conservative party if they lose? will be everyone's against will this be everyone's against us? way to stop this is us? the only way to stop this is to vote conservative and might actually that help them in the next election if they next general election if they say system is rigged say the entire system is rigged against the will of the

they could have pulled out of the echr at any point. they haven't . he's whinging about it .crisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaayil hypocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . hypocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, ocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, who y. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, who am i going to >> okay. oh, who am i going to go with? >> it's got to be sadiq khan. on and adam brooks . and adam brooks. >> london's failed mayor, bringing misery to the city. ah, there are now blm style protests in peckham in a large part, i believe, because of the race war that khan has stoked . i know that khan has stoked. i know that khan has stoked. i know that isn't why adam nominated him. but, you know, it adds to the wider picture. >> he's a terrible london mayor. >> he's a terrible london mayor. >> dan yeah, he is. >> dan yeah, he is. >> he'll be doing a great job. >> he'll be doing a great job. >> adam brooks, matthew a lazy your party might have jeremy corbyn to contend with soon and chris dean hamilton, my s

they could have pulled out of the echr at any point. they haven't . he's whinging about it .crisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaayil hypocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . hypocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, ocrisy. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, who y. . and yet he's whinging about it nokaay . oh, who am i going to >> okay. oh, who am i going to go with? >> it's got to be sadiq khan. on and adam brooks . and adam brooks. >> london's failed mayor, bringing misery to the city. ah, there are now blm style protests in peckham in a large part, i believe, because of the race war that khan has stoked . i know that khan has stoked. i know that khan has stoked. i know that isn't why adam nominated him. but, you know, it adds to the wider picture. >> he's a terrible london mayor. >> he's a terrible london mayor. >> dan yeah, he is. >> dan yeah, he is. >> he'll be doing a great job. >> he'll be doing a great job. >> adam brooks, matthew a lazy your party might have jeremy corbyn to contend with soon and chris dean hamilton, my s

there's a lot of discussion isn't there, about the echr, isn't it european court of human rights ?uman rights? >> his sanction has >> what's his name? sanction has been saying that he's, you know, jonathan sumption, the senior law lord who was quite sceptical about lockdown and so he's about lockdown and so on, he's come against it recently and come out against it recently and he's one of the more reasonable voices. interesting. he's one of the more reasonable voi> well, ben wallace says he doesn't , but he doesn't want the echr, but he just more clarity . okay. just wants more clarity. okay. is of saying. and is what he's sort of saying. and that's obviously what they've latched on to probably from a four they've four hour interview. they've whittled down to this one talking well a talking point. well he's a serious wallace. serious chap, ben wallace. >> everyone admired him very much, was surprised wouldn't much, was surprised he wouldn't stand leader

european convention on human rights in the echr . of course , rights in the echr.se, the old saying is if there's a will, there's a way. so that's in the political ambit. and with a majority in poland , one can a majority in poland, one can say that there is a political mandate for mr ideas and policies . but in terms of the policies. but in terms of the current legal framework, the european court in strasbourg has been clear that in its previous case, one called hirsi jamaa, is the probably the most famous one is that these policies of interception , even on the high interception, even on the high seas in international waters , seas in international waters, fall foul of the refugee convention and article three of the european convention on human rights. so there is jurisprudentially in terms of the legal principles, a legal barrier there. how you overcome those legal barriers is a question of political will. and there's no doubt there would be a collision between where the current legal framework will collide with any new political mandate such as that put forward

european convention on human rights in the echr . of course , rights in the echr.se, the old saying is if there's a will, there's a way. so that's in the political ambit. and with a majority in poland , one can a majority in poland, one can say that there is a political mandate for mr ideas and policies . but in terms of the policies. but in terms of the current legal framework, the european court in strasbourg has been clear that in its previous case, one called hirsi jamaa, is the probably the most famous one is that these policies of interception , even on the high interception, even on the high seas in international waters , seas in international waters, fall foul of the refugee convention and article three of the european convention on human rights. so there is jurisprudentially in terms of the legal principles, a legal barrier there. how you overcome those legal barriers is a question of political will. and there's no doubt there would be a collision between where the current legal framework will collide with any new political mandate such as that put forward

now, these include taking action on our echr membership , cutting our echr membership, cutting taxesst to mob. that's a direct contrast to sunak back with his five pledges, which they see there. they are branding theirs the red walls right ? all five pledges. walls right? all five pledges. so now, esther mcvey, look, this is difficult for you, isn't it? because there is a civil war group in your party. we saw some good things from sunak over the past week, but lots of your colleagues are very nervous. they are about to lose their job. so what's the atmosphere going to be like at conference and what do you make of these new conservatives launching rival pledges ? rival pledges? >> i don't like the name new conservative. it sounds like new labour to get rid of that straight away. the name look, we've of we've always had groups of people, within the tory people, groups within the tory party. i had blue collar party. i had the blue collar conservatives. the conservatives. there's the common sense, there's the one nation. so you've all the erg famously erg absolutely. so but it's like wha